What makes a good job advert?
Discussion
ceebmoj said:
I guess I should have said recent graduate the job is based a little south of Warrington. The salary is competitive to good. I need some one who is driven hard working and thrives on challenges.
I'd probably steer clear of phrases like "driven, hard working and thrives on challenges"In my experience that means "will expect unpaid overtime, when you fail to live upto unrealistic timescales imposed by a boss who has little or no idea of what's going on."
ceebmoj said:
Just as long as you're aware that 99% of jobseekers are annoyed by "£Competitive Salary".bonsai said:
ceebmoj said:
Just as long as you're aware that 99% of jobseekers are annoyed by "£Competitive Salary".Mostly because you see salary ranges from £20k PA - £35k+ for the role you describe
On a side note, I feel you're making a mistake for closing the door on those without a degree. You'd be surprised at what some people are able to teach themselves purely through interest.
Edited by JDMFanYo on Thursday 4th February 10:30
bonsai said:
ceebmoj said:
Just as long as you're aware that 99% of jobseekers are annoyed by "£Competitive Salary".JDMFanYo said:
bonsai said:
ceebmoj said:
Just as long as you're aware that 99% of jobseekers are annoyed by "£Competitive Salary".Mostly because you see salary ranges from £20k PA - £35k+ for the role you describe
On a side note, I feel you're making a mistake for closing the door on those without a degree. You'd be surprised at what some people are able to teach themselves purely through interest.
Edited by JDMFanYo on Thursday 4th February 10:30
singlecoil said:
I'm not looking for a job at the moment, TF, but I used to hate that too. How many hoops would I have to jump through before finding out whether it was more, less or the same as I was currently getting? Having said that, I expect there will be plenty of replies so pissing off a proportion of them won't matter.
there have been a number of applicants but not many of them have had the required skill set. Hence I was wondering what was wrong with the add. I'd agree to get rid of any management buzzwords and state the actual salary range.
I'd add the 5 strengths and 5 weaknesses of the job and company (be honest). This will show you're honest and mean you get the right sort of applicants.
For example, a strength may be that it gives you the chance to focus on a technical area and become an expert in that field. A weakness might be that it's a technical job so if your ambition is to move into project management or you enjoy speaking to customers then it's not for you.
For newer companies, a strength might be there is no dress code and not too much in the way of office politics, but a weakness might be that there isn't a formal career development path and you're expected to work on things outside your core responsibilities at times. Someone who wants a very structured formal environment might choose not to apply and it's better they don't apply than get the job and leave after a few months.
I'd add the 5 strengths and 5 weaknesses of the job and company (be honest). This will show you're honest and mean you get the right sort of applicants.
For example, a strength may be that it gives you the chance to focus on a technical area and become an expert in that field. A weakness might be that it's a technical job so if your ambition is to move into project management or you enjoy speaking to customers then it's not for you.
For newer companies, a strength might be there is no dress code and not too much in the way of office politics, but a weakness might be that there isn't a formal career development path and you're expected to work on things outside your core responsibilities at times. Someone who wants a very structured formal environment might choose not to apply and it's better they don't apply than get the job and leave after a few months.
bonsai said:
ceebmoj said:
Just as long as you're aware that 99% of jobseekers are annoyed by "£Competitive Salary".In my experience it usually means either the person placing the advert hasn't been told the salary range or they haven't decided what it is yet (and won't decide until they get feedback from some interviews to find out what they can get away with).
What are HR hoping to achieve by not mentioning the salary range? Are they hoping that prospective applicants won't know how far they can push the negotiations? If so, surely the limiting factor in salary negotiations is applicant talent? i.e. You're not going to pay someone more than they are worth.
So my 2p, speaking as a long-time contractor who has seen more job adverts than I care to remember...
First off, as has already been said specify a salary range. £Competitive tells us absolutely nothing and immediately makes me think:
1) The salary isn't competitive
2) They don't expect to attract good people to the company, as only those people who are currently on £Uncompetitive will apply.
Secondly - if you're going to require a GCSE in English, then get somebody with said qualification to write the advert:
Also you are making the common mistake of being too prescriptive. Who cares if somebody has spent the last few years writing Unix device drivers - if they're a good C++ programmer then they're good no matter what. Picking up MFC will take almost no time to anybody worth their salt.
Finally - specifying working hours and then saying you have a flexi-time scheme would rather me think the flexi-time scheme isn't any good. Lose the 9-5:30 and just say 37.5 hours/week.
So that's what would put me off. Additional things that would make me think more about applying are:
First off, as has already been said specify a salary range. £Competitive tells us absolutely nothing and immediately makes me think:
1) The salary isn't competitive
2) They don't expect to attract good people to the company, as only those people who are currently on £Uncompetitive will apply.
Secondly - if you're going to require a GCSE in English, then get somebody with said qualification to write the advert:
Advert said:
GCSE or equivalent in Math’s and English
Thirdly - saying things like Advert said:
Experience of Robust Design Techniques, Debugging Techniques, MS Windows, <...> are essential requirements of the role
makes me think you don't know what you're talking about. Any developer will have debugged their code; everybody has used Windows (if you mean 'Windows development' then say so) and I have never heard of Robust Design Techniques, and neither has Google which leads to me suspect you've just made it up.Also you are making the common mistake of being too prescriptive. Who cares if somebody has spent the last few years writing Unix device drivers - if they're a good C++ programmer then they're good no matter what. Picking up MFC will take almost no time to anybody worth their salt.
Finally - specifying working hours and then saying you have a flexi-time scheme would rather me think the flexi-time scheme isn't any good. Lose the 9-5:30 and just say 37.5 hours/week.
So that's what would put me off. Additional things that would make me think more about applying are:
- An actual salary range (just in case you hadn't got it
) - Work-life balance
- Career progression
- Active social scene
- Benefits
Just to add, in case you hadn't actually bothered to beat your HR bods over the head yet, add a salary range! Otherwise, practically everybody who already has a job will instantly skip your ad.
All of the arguments HR people use for omitting seem to be formulated by someone with no concept of logic. If you put 20-35k, it doesn't mean you have to pay 35k and it won't affect the range of applicants applying (except you'll get more of them). Also, there's no point in hoping people worth 50k will magically apply, because they will only waste your time and money on an interview for a job they will not take. The only reason that I give any credence to is the argument that existing employees earning less can get jealous. The easy way around that though is to state a salary range for the grade rather than the job: this means everything to internals but changes nothing for prospective candidates.
As for your ad in particular, I would suggest splitting it into required and desirable skills/experience, and really think about which category each falls into. For example, Robust Design Techniques isn't really experience it is an attitude. This is something you might probe on interview but by capitalising it you're suggesting it is some sort of formal methodology (possibly requiring training?) which, as far as I am aware, it is not and you do not need. I'm also not sure about the GCSEs - if thy have a degree, why put this? My ad would probably read like:
About the Role:
... some basic stuff about the size of team, who you report to, any direct reports, deputising, etc ...
you might also choose to describe the role in terms of - team based/independent, extent of role (e.g. testing but not QA), contact with customers etc. Some employers go as far as listing the job's duties.
About the Company:
... again, size, industry, chance to sell the context of the role w.r.t. promotion opportunities (expanding company), location, etc ...
Essential:
HND/Degree in Computer Science or related discipline
Minimum 3 years C/C++ development experience
Experience in developing MS Windows applications
Experience working in a team environment
One or more of the following:
Experience with Microsoft Foundation Classes
Experience with Active Template Library
Experience with ActiveX controls
Benefits:
Salary 25k-35k, commensurate with skills and experience.
Contributory pension
Health benefits (etc)
23 days holiday
Flexible working hours (37.5 hours per week)
All of the arguments HR people use for omitting seem to be formulated by someone with no concept of logic. If you put 20-35k, it doesn't mean you have to pay 35k and it won't affect the range of applicants applying (except you'll get more of them). Also, there's no point in hoping people worth 50k will magically apply, because they will only waste your time and money on an interview for a job they will not take. The only reason that I give any credence to is the argument that existing employees earning less can get jealous. The easy way around that though is to state a salary range for the grade rather than the job: this means everything to internals but changes nothing for prospective candidates.
As for your ad in particular, I would suggest splitting it into required and desirable skills/experience, and really think about which category each falls into. For example, Robust Design Techniques isn't really experience it is an attitude. This is something you might probe on interview but by capitalising it you're suggesting it is some sort of formal methodology (possibly requiring training?) which, as far as I am aware, it is not and you do not need. I'm also not sure about the GCSEs - if thy have a degree, why put this? My ad would probably read like:
About the Role:
... some basic stuff about the size of team, who you report to, any direct reports, deputising, etc ...
you might also choose to describe the role in terms of - team based/independent, extent of role (e.g. testing but not QA), contact with customers etc. Some employers go as far as listing the job's duties.
About the Company:
... again, size, industry, chance to sell the context of the role w.r.t. promotion opportunities (expanding company), location, etc ...
Essential:
HND/Degree in Computer Science or related discipline
Minimum 3 years C/C++ development experience
Experience in developing MS Windows applications
Experience working in a team environment
One or more of the following:
Experience with Microsoft Foundation Classes
Experience with Active Template Library
Experience with ActiveX controls
Benefits:
Salary 25k-35k, commensurate with skills and experience.
Contributory pension
Health benefits (etc)
23 days holiday
Flexible working hours (37.5 hours per week)
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff