Chances of a Mito Spider?
Discussion
Seriously, what are the chances that Alfa will offer a Spider version of the Mito?
It would seem to make sense after all - it's arch-rival, the MINI, has a hugely popular convertible option, and as Alfa's best-selling car, it would only extend its appeal further and bring in more revenue to develop bigger, more exciting models.
Also, if I have one criticism of the Mito's styling, it's that it looks ever so slightly too tall and dumpy. Slicing the roof off and replacing it with a fabric one would mean, roof down of course, that it appeared longer and sleeker. It would also, for the first time since the 2600 Spider, be a four-seater, convertible Alfa Romeo, broadening the appeal even greater than the current, Brera-based Spider.
Also, as with all small sports cars, take the roof off and it's performance - admittedly slightly sluggish on some of the base models - suddently doesn't matter, as even 30mph feels brisk, and it'd have that 'Dolce Vita yacht tender' feel to it on the Junior models, right up to the 'baby Ferrari California' effect on the Veloce.
Just feels like they're missing a massive trick - does anyone know if there's one in the pipeline?
It would seem to make sense after all - it's arch-rival, the MINI, has a hugely popular convertible option, and as Alfa's best-selling car, it would only extend its appeal further and bring in more revenue to develop bigger, more exciting models.
Also, if I have one criticism of the Mito's styling, it's that it looks ever so slightly too tall and dumpy. Slicing the roof off and replacing it with a fabric one would mean, roof down of course, that it appeared longer and sleeker. It would also, for the first time since the 2600 Spider, be a four-seater, convertible Alfa Romeo, broadening the appeal even greater than the current, Brera-based Spider.
Also, as with all small sports cars, take the roof off and it's performance - admittedly slightly sluggish on some of the base models - suddently doesn't matter, as even 30mph feels brisk, and it'd have that 'Dolce Vita yacht tender' feel to it on the Junior models, right up to the 'baby Ferrari California' effect on the Veloce.
Just feels like they're missing a massive trick - does anyone know if there's one in the pipeline?
From comments made in the last few weeks by Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne it would seem Alfa is in the last chance saloon as it's sales have continued to slide disastrously. He has virtually said that the new Giulietta due in June will be the make or break car for the brand. If it fails future investment in new models may be abandoned so a costly retool to make a limited market MiTo soft top is almost certainly a non starter.
isuk said:
From comments made in the last few weeks by Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne it would seem Alfa is in the last chance saloon as it's sales have continued to slide disastrously. He has virtually said that the new Giulietta due in June will be the make or break car for the brand. If it fails future investment in new models may be abandoned so a costly retool to make a limited market MiTo soft top is almost certainly a non starter.
I know about the announcement but I sincerely hope they don't axe Alfa. However, it has been noted that the Mito is bucking the trend.I know there's a debate at the moment as to whether they should use the C-Evo or new 300C platform for the saloons. IMHO they should get their money's worth from the C-Evo - I think the Giulietta should do well, so a low-roofed Astra Sportshatch-style 3-door version could be the new GTV, then they could do a booted 155-style 'Giulia' and a 'Sportwagon' on the same platform.
Leave the 3- and 5-series market to the new 300C-platform Lancias, and the 7-series to the Quattroporte.
The brand won't survive on the sale of small hatches and small saloons alone, that's the problem they currently have. They are trying to emulate the German brands but failing miserably in terms of sales figures. They need a broader range of competitive models to make it viable for their dealers to survive at the price points they compete in. The MiTo has been a success due to scrappage incentives but with the new multiair engines pushing up the prices considerably coupled with the end of the scrappage scheme things are going to get a lot tougher for that model.
The 8C and 8C spider really should have been engineered as replacements for the Brera and Brera spyder instead of the ludicrous limited run models which are simply reclothed Maserati's and bear no relation to the rest of the range. These models were developed on a shoestring budget in car making terms but have little lasting sales halo effect on small 15k hatches. A "6C" coupe and spyder using the V6 would have sold extremely well on looks alone at Porsche Boxster/Cayman price levels and attracted more business IMHO giving the brand more showroom traffic and greater prominence on the road.
I really fear for the brand if their future rests on shared Chrysler platforms. Chrysler are hardly cutting edge and struggled to make their cars appeal on anything other than low price in Europe.
The 8C and 8C spider really should have been engineered as replacements for the Brera and Brera spyder instead of the ludicrous limited run models which are simply reclothed Maserati's and bear no relation to the rest of the range. These models were developed on a shoestring budget in car making terms but have little lasting sales halo effect on small 15k hatches. A "6C" coupe and spyder using the V6 would have sold extremely well on looks alone at Porsche Boxster/Cayman price levels and attracted more business IMHO giving the brand more showroom traffic and greater prominence on the road.
I really fear for the brand if their future rests on shared Chrysler platforms. Chrysler are hardly cutting edge and struggled to make their cars appeal on anything other than low price in Europe.
isuk said:
From comments made in the last few weeks by Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne it would seem Alfa is in the last chance saloon as it's sales have continued to slide disastrously. He has virtually said that the new Giulietta due in June will be the make or break car for the brand. If it fails future investment in new models may be abandoned so a costly retool to make a limited market MiTo soft top is almost certainly a non starter.
Well that contradicts this then:http://www.hrowen.co.uk/alfa-romeo/news-and-offers...
And the recent article putting Alfa having one of the biggest sales growths of 2009. There sales figures overall were still poor compared to the German manufacturers, but they're definately on the increase. No idea where you are getting "disastrous" sales from...
MattyB_ said:
isuk said:
From comments made in the last few weeks by Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne it would seem Alfa is in the last chance saloon as it's sales have continued to slide disastrously. He has virtually said that the new Giulietta due in June will be the make or break car for the brand. If it fails future investment in new models may be abandoned so a costly retool to make a limited market MiTo soft top is almost certainly a non starter.
Well that contradicts this then:http://www.hrowen.co.uk/alfa-romeo/news-and-offers...
And the recent article putting Alfa having one of the biggest sales growths of 2009. There sales figures overall were still poor compared to the German manufacturers, but they're definately on the increase. No idea where you are getting "disastrous" sales from...
The Mito is selling well in Germany, traditionally a market that has shunned Alfa almost completely. It's especially surprising for Alfa when the MINI is considered by many Germans to be a German car, but sales aren't suffering.
Marcchione has said that the success or failure of the Giulietta will determine Alfa's future - he certainly hasn't said it's in the last-chance saloon. I think they'll wait to see whether it sells more strongly and diversely than the 159, and choose Alfa's path that way. My current copy of Alfa Romeo Driver (the AROC magazine) has him quoted as saying 'Alfa is not for sale'. Fiat have been very successful recently, so I think he's deciding whether to align Alfa more closely with Fiat to take on Seat as a sporty take on an 'ordinary' car, or whether to continue to battle BMW. Alfa's problem is the cost of building cars on so many platforms, it's just a case of which one to go with to get the biggest sales. I'm guessing the C-Evo.
Difficulty for Alfa was that the 159 was as well-designed and well-made as its German rivals, and despite sales that would look good by many manufacturers' standards, it failed to recoup the costs of development quickly enough. It was a case of right car, wrong time, but reliability-wise, so long as service schedules have been adhered to, they're far more reliable and well-made than their predecessors.
What I can't understand is why he's so determined to push Lancia sales. Lancia is caught between rallying heritage (replaced in Fiat's eyes by Abarth these days) and the Fiat group's lack of sales in the 'Mercedes' sector. The Chrysler tie-up would give Lancia a foothold in this sector, so why are they crowding Alfa's market with lumpen disappointments like the New Delta when the Giulietta promises to be a million times better?
Seriously, I've been following the Giulietta's development and it looks like it's going to be an absolute corker. Phillipe Krief's team have been testing disguised prototypes on British B-roads to fine-tune the chassis and suspension so it should run rings round the Golf at the very least. Throw MultiAir technology into the mix, Fiat's recent build quality and reliability and that styling and I think they're onto a winner.
Style-led 'boutique' cars are definitely a hot ticket for the future. Alfa is in a position, like MINI, of being able to offer 'sporty' and 'cute' simultaneously.
I must have been dreaming then when I read the stories in the financial press then 
H R Owen aren't exactly a reliable source of info .... they're a dealer and are thus unlikely to say anything bad as that's tantamount to commercial suicide.
Here is an extract from an article on Fiat's future plans and Sergio Marchionne's views on Alfa -
"Before Christmas Fiat Group CEO Sergio Marchionne intimated that his patience with Alfa Romeo had run out. The brand reportedly loses between 200 and 400 million euros a year, although these are estimates as Fiat doesn't split up financial reports for the FGA brands. Marchionne suggested Alfa Romeo's future model development could be canned once the Giulietta is introduced in the spring, implying a slow death for the brand as sales gradually wound down, or that future large end of the range models could be based on Chrysler Group architecture, to eventually replace the current-generation of 159 and provide a long-mooted replacement for the discontinued 166."
I've no axe to grind here, just reporting the facts that overall sales are nowhere near good enough for the level of investment required to make future survival assured. The recent increase in sales in the UK is all down to the scrappage incentive making the MiTo an attractive buy as I said. The real test for the car comes now that scrappage is at an end and the base prices have been hiked significantly to take account of currency fluctuations.
H R Owen aren't exactly a reliable source of info .... they're a dealer and are thus unlikely to say anything bad as that's tantamount to commercial suicide.Here is an extract from an article on Fiat's future plans and Sergio Marchionne's views on Alfa -
"Before Christmas Fiat Group CEO Sergio Marchionne intimated that his patience with Alfa Romeo had run out. The brand reportedly loses between 200 and 400 million euros a year, although these are estimates as Fiat doesn't split up financial reports for the FGA brands. Marchionne suggested Alfa Romeo's future model development could be canned once the Giulietta is introduced in the spring, implying a slow death for the brand as sales gradually wound down, or that future large end of the range models could be based on Chrysler Group architecture, to eventually replace the current-generation of 159 and provide a long-mooted replacement for the discontinued 166."
I've no axe to grind here, just reporting the facts that overall sales are nowhere near good enough for the level of investment required to make future survival assured. The recent increase in sales in the UK is all down to the scrappage incentive making the MiTo an attractive buy as I said. The real test for the car comes now that scrappage is at an end and the base prices have been hiked significantly to take account of currency fluctuations.
But HR Owen aren't the root source of the information, they're just regurgitating it from the Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders - they're reporting on it because its positive information for potential buyers, obviously, but the source is sound.
Your quote reports that Alfa are losing the Fiat brand money - totally different to sales numbers, which is what you initially mentioned. Sales are up, but they're still losing money. The sales figures I read stated that Alfa sold a pitiful amount of cars in Europe in 2008, and the 2009 sales were still poor, but they were higher, mainly due to the MiTo.
But even the 2009 figures were miniscule compared to what other manufacturs were churning out - a fraction of Audi, BMW or Merc, which is really what Alfa are (or should be) competing against as a prestige brand.
Zilch as it will be going up against the new tigra and the new renault fart
http://issue.imotormag.co.uk/1P4b69992883a39012.cd...
http://issue.imotormag.co.uk/1P4b69992883a39012.cd...
I think we've got crossed wires. I wasn't doubting that UK sales figures were up in anything I posted. I meant total sales by the factory to all markets are not good. They are way down on their peak of around 200k cars when the 156 was on sale and the 147 was new in 2000/2001. Total sales now are running at just over half that peak figure when their growth target was to hit 400k per annum. That's disastrous when other brands like Audi and BMW have made great strides forward in sales in the past decade.
The point I was making was that with the low cost MiTo as their best seller they will never attain sufficient levels of profit to secure they're future. They'd need to be selling cars at two to three times the MiTo's price i.e. the £40-50k price bracket to have any hope of making money. You only have to look at Porsche who have a similar annual production output and look at their average sale price per car sold to see how wide of the mark Alfa currently is.
Marchionne is a different breed of CEO at Fiat and will not suffer ongoing loss making operations like his predecessors did. He's already taking tough decisions - the closure of Termine Imerese factory in Sicily being a prime example. Alfa aren't out, yet, but they are certainly down and need the Giulietta to be a winner. I sincerely hope it is. The petrolhead world needs Alfa but it also deserves much better cars from them. I've just read so many "new sales dawn" stories over the past 25 years from Alfa that's it's becoming a little jaded.
The point I was making was that with the low cost MiTo as their best seller they will never attain sufficient levels of profit to secure they're future. They'd need to be selling cars at two to three times the MiTo's price i.e. the £40-50k price bracket to have any hope of making money. You only have to look at Porsche who have a similar annual production output and look at their average sale price per car sold to see how wide of the mark Alfa currently is.
Marchionne is a different breed of CEO at Fiat and will not suffer ongoing loss making operations like his predecessors did. He's already taking tough decisions - the closure of Termine Imerese factory in Sicily being a prime example. Alfa aren't out, yet, but they are certainly down and need the Giulietta to be a winner. I sincerely hope it is. The petrolhead world needs Alfa but it also deserves much better cars from them. I've just read so many "new sales dawn" stories over the past 25 years from Alfa that's it's becoming a little jaded.
GhostyDog said:
Zilch as it will be going up against the new tigra and the new renault fart
http://issue.imotormag.co.uk/1P4b69992883a39012.cd...
It could offer four seats if they stuck with a canvas roof, thus massively increasing their appeal.http://issue.imotormag.co.uk/1P4b69992883a39012.cd...
I've no idea who buys two-seater non-sporty drop-tops, or why. Surely people only put up with a lack of practicality if they are rewarded with sporty handling and performance? I've seen far, far more MINI drop-tops than I have Tigras, and they can offer looks, speed, handling and practicality.
So can Alfa. Unless Renault take the unexpected step of knocking on Alpine's door and sticking a Clio 197 engine in the back of the new Fart, I can't see it making much market impact.
Alfa appeals to people whose dream car is probably a Ferrari or a Maserati, but who can only justify one car, need it to be practical-ish and who couldn't afford to buy or run a Ferrari or Maserati anyway - and that market will always be sizeable and loyal for as long as Ferrari and Maserati exist.
Twincam16 said:
GhostyDog said:
Zilch as it will be going up against the new tigra and the new renault fart
http://issue.imotormag.co.uk/1P4b69992883a39012.cd...
It could offer four seats if they stuck with a canvas roof, thus massively increasing their appeal.http://issue.imotormag.co.uk/1P4b69992883a39012.cd...
I've no idea who buys two-seater non-sporty drop-tops, or why. Surely people only put up with a lack of practicality if they are rewarded with sporty handling and performance? I've seen far, far more MINI drop-tops than I have Tigras, and they can offer looks, speed, handling and practicality.
So can Alfa. Unless Renault take the unexpected step of knocking on Alpine's door and sticking a Clio 197 engine in the back of the new Fart, I can't see it making much market impact.
Alfa appeals to people whose dream car is probably a Ferrari or a Maserati, but who can only justify one car, need it to be practical-ish and who couldn't afford to buy or run a Ferrari or Maserati anyway - and that market will always be sizeable and loyal for as long as Ferrari and Maserati exist.
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