Can the UK survive on its own?
Discussion
Talking with a Belgian friend the other day who has worked extensively in China,he reckons that the UK will not survive the economic threat from globalisation without fully integrating into the EU.He even went so far as to suggest that the EU may even struggle against the financial and manufacturing behemoth that is China.America is effectiveley owned by China,in the next 20 years is it possible that China will be the only true superpower.
smifffymoto said:
UK will not survive.
Of course it will survive, the question is in what sort of shape. In business you can survive and prosper very well as a small specialist, find yourself a niche and you can get very wealthy at it, there is no reason why, on a bigger scale, countries can't do the same - in fact they already do. In the mass market it is very hard to compete against a low cost economy when you are a high cost economy. But these things even out, costs in China are rising as they get more prosperous. Our focus needs to be on specialist areas where the cost of labour is not the main factor.
siscar said:
Of course it will survive, the question is in what sort of shape. In business you can survive and prosper very well as a small specialist, find yourself a niche and you can get very wealthy at it, there is no reason why, on a bigger scale, countries can't do the same - in fact they already do.
The City already props up the economy so assuming Winky doesn't drive them away that would seem like a good place to start.Can Scotland survive on it's own? Or the Isles of Scilly?
If we are talking independence from everyone then yes.
We set interest rates, we set taxes.
You set taxes right and they will come. I bought a book called "Tax Avoidance" the other day and funnily enough, the UK was down as having favourable corporation tax. Maybe it's part of the reason why London has a fair few people based here. Jack the taxes up and they will leave. Ask yourself this... What would happen if we decided to join the Euro and look very much towards a harmonised tax system? Do you think this expains why we haven't?
The UK as it is nets a huge amount of wealth from outside the EU. The project needs this in order to evolve best. We won't join until London has been smashed and then we will join, sure as hell.
Why would the EU/Eurozone give any sort of advantage in extra-EU trade? Ans, it wouldn't. People like single currency ideas, unlimited travel, but the bottom line is it isn't about facilitating trade, facilitating growth, it's about social engineering on a large scale, witness the red tape.
You gain economic success by little regulation, little taxes, lots of investment and the ability to manouver when the s
t hits the fan.
You want to know what the economy would have been like if we had been in the Eurozone? We would have probably made Greece look successful.
Harmonisation of interest rates, inability to devalue the currency add up to a disaster in the pipes. We can laugh at Brown for smashing the economy, but at least we have the freedom to fix it.
Adjust the taxes/laws to be more lenient/libertarian and the money will come. Sadly, this doesn't fit with the globalised socialism that we're progressing along. If you have low taxes which favour those stinking capitalists, you can't afford any socialist, eutopian experiments like the EU!
Your friend with all due respect has been sucked along with the views of idiots.
Left out in the cold????
That's what they want you to think
If we are talking independence from everyone then yes.
We set interest rates, we set taxes.
You set taxes right and they will come. I bought a book called "Tax Avoidance" the other day and funnily enough, the UK was down as having favourable corporation tax. Maybe it's part of the reason why London has a fair few people based here. Jack the taxes up and they will leave. Ask yourself this... What would happen if we decided to join the Euro and look very much towards a harmonised tax system? Do you think this expains why we haven't?
The UK as it is nets a huge amount of wealth from outside the EU. The project needs this in order to evolve best. We won't join until London has been smashed and then we will join, sure as hell.
Why would the EU/Eurozone give any sort of advantage in extra-EU trade? Ans, it wouldn't. People like single currency ideas, unlimited travel, but the bottom line is it isn't about facilitating trade, facilitating growth, it's about social engineering on a large scale, witness the red tape.
You gain economic success by little regulation, little taxes, lots of investment and the ability to manouver when the s
t hits the fan. You want to know what the economy would have been like if we had been in the Eurozone? We would have probably made Greece look successful.
Harmonisation of interest rates, inability to devalue the currency add up to a disaster in the pipes. We can laugh at Brown for smashing the economy, but at least we have the freedom to fix it.
Adjust the taxes/laws to be more lenient/libertarian and the money will come. Sadly, this doesn't fit with the globalised socialism that we're progressing along. If you have low taxes which favour those stinking capitalists, you can't afford any socialist, eutopian experiments like the EU!
Your friend with all due respect has been sucked along with the views of idiots.
Left out in the cold????
That's what they want you to think
JRM said:
I'd certainly be surprised if it can maintain it's economic size without joining the EU, think we should have taken that leap some time ago. Lesser of two evils.
Did you mean the Euro? If so not many would agree that joining a non-optimal currency zone, which the UK would make even less optimal, would actually improve our prospects.In fact it would have been disastrous.
People keep metioning China as a superpower, but what happens when there standard of living rises and the cheap manufactured goods will not be so cheap anymore.
Will the rest of the world find somewhere else for these goods, what happens to China then?
This is a question by the way, educate me!
Will the rest of the world find somewhere else for these goods, what happens to China then?
This is a question by the way, educate me!
Groober said:
People keep metioning China as a superpower, but what happens when there standard of living rises and the cheap manufactured goods will not be so cheap anymore.
Will the rest of the world find somewhere else for these goods, what happens to China then?
This is a question by the way, educate me!
In many ways China is a disaster waiting to happen. The demographics argue against China sustaining its growth rate, in fact the opposite. In 20 years China could be an example of the biggest boom to bust ever recorded.Will the rest of the world find somewhere else for these goods, what happens to China then?
This is a question by the way, educate me!
As for cheap manufactured goods, either someone else will pick up the low labour cost role or technology will compensate.
For me the concern is that we ignore the Chinese threat and bumble along.When I was small lad things were made in Taiwan or HK now nearley everything is made in China.If they don't know how to make something or have not developed it well enough they copy western products and ideas until it works.
Tangent Police said:
Can Scotland survive on it's own? Or the Isles of Scilly?
If we are talking independence from everyone then yes.
We set interest rates, we set taxes.
You set taxes right and they will come. I bought a book called "Tax Avoidance" the other day and funnily enough, the UK was down as having favourable corporation tax. Maybe it's part of the reason why London has a fair few people based here. Jack the taxes up and they will leave. Ask yourself this... What would happen if we decided to join the Euro and look very much towards a harmonised tax system? Do you think this expains why we haven't?
The UK as it is nets a huge amount of wealth from outside the EU. The project needs this in order to evolve best. We won't join until London has been smashed and then we will join, sure as hell.
Why would the EU/Eurozone give any sort of advantage in extra-EU trade? Ans, it wouldn't. People like single currency ideas, unlimited travel, but the bottom line is it isn't about facilitating trade, facilitating growth, it's about social engineering on a large scale, witness the red tape.
You gain economic success by little regulation, little taxes, lots of investment and the ability to manouver when the st hits the fan.
You want to know what the economy would have been like if we had been in the Eurozone? We would have probably made Greece look successful.
Harmonisation of interest rates, inability to devalue the currency add up to a disaster in the pipes. We can laugh at Brown for smashing the economy, but at least we have the freedom to fix it.
Adjust the taxes/laws to be more lenient/libertarian and the money will come. Sadly, this doesn't fit with the globalised socialism that we're progressing along. If you have low taxes which favour those stinking capitalists, you can't afford any socialist, eutopian experiments like the EU!
Your friend with all due respect has been sucked along with the views of idiots.
Left out in the cold????
That's what they want you to think
Well said that man.If we are talking independence from everyone then yes.
We set interest rates, we set taxes.
You set taxes right and they will come. I bought a book called "Tax Avoidance" the other day and funnily enough, the UK was down as having favourable corporation tax. Maybe it's part of the reason why London has a fair few people based here. Jack the taxes up and they will leave. Ask yourself this... What would happen if we decided to join the Euro and look very much towards a harmonised tax system? Do you think this expains why we haven't?
The UK as it is nets a huge amount of wealth from outside the EU. The project needs this in order to evolve best. We won't join until London has been smashed and then we will join, sure as hell.
Why would the EU/Eurozone give any sort of advantage in extra-EU trade? Ans, it wouldn't. People like single currency ideas, unlimited travel, but the bottom line is it isn't about facilitating trade, facilitating growth, it's about social engineering on a large scale, witness the red tape.
You gain economic success by little regulation, little taxes, lots of investment and the ability to manouver when the s
t hits the fan. You want to know what the economy would have been like if we had been in the Eurozone? We would have probably made Greece look successful.
Harmonisation of interest rates, inability to devalue the currency add up to a disaster in the pipes. We can laugh at Brown for smashing the economy, but at least we have the freedom to fix it.
Adjust the taxes/laws to be more lenient/libertarian and the money will come. Sadly, this doesn't fit with the globalised socialism that we're progressing along. If you have low taxes which favour those stinking capitalists, you can't afford any socialist, eutopian experiments like the EU!
Your friend with all due respect has been sucked along with the views of idiots.
Left out in the cold????
That's what they want you to think
The only people who espouse the 'join or fail' theory are those with a vested interest.
s2art said:
JRM said:
I'd certainly be surprised if it can maintain it's economic size without joining the EU, think we should have taken that leap some time ago. Lesser of two evils.
Did you mean the Euro? If so not many would agree that joining a non-optimal currency zone, which the UK would make even less optimal, would actually improve our prospects.In fact it would have been disastrous.
smifffymoto said:
For me the concern is that we ignore the Chinese threat and bumble along.When I was small lad things were made in Taiwan or HK now nearley everything is made in China.If they don't know how to make something or have not developed it well enough they copy western products and ideas until it works.
Why is China a threat rather than an opportunity? Is it not an opportunity for innovative British companies to have some cheap labour to manufacture (parts of) their complex, technical products - you know, the sort of thing we're good at.We shouldn't (well, can't) try to compete with the low-wage economies on mass manufacturing, but can compete (and lead) on high value, high technology innovation, using the availability of cheap labour in various places around the globe (within whatever ethical boundaries you feel appropriate) to supply cheap components.
Incredible Sulk said:
s2art said:
JRM said:
I'd certainly be surprised if it can maintain it's economic size without joining the EU, think we should have taken that leap some time ago. Lesser of two evils.
Did you mean the Euro? If so not many would agree that joining a non-optimal currency zone, which the UK would make even less optimal, would actually improve our prospects.In fact it would have been disastrous.
s2art said:
Groober said:
People keep metioning China as a superpower, but what happens when there standard of living rises and the cheap manufactured goods will not be so cheap anymore.
Will the rest of the world find somewhere else for these goods, what happens to China then?
This is a question by the way, educate me!
In many ways China is a disaster waiting to happen. The demographics argue against China sustaining its growth rate, in fact the opposite. In 20 years China could be an example of the biggest boom to bust ever recorded.Will the rest of the world find somewhere else for these goods, what happens to China then?
This is a question by the way, educate me!
As for cheap manufactured goods, either someone else will pick up the low labour cost role or technology will compensate.
smifffymoto said:
.. Talking with a Belgian friend ..
Ha, and where would Belgium be in the global scheme of things without above average chocolate, dodgy police scandals (i suppose we have that as well now), being really really cr8p at colonising countries, and hosting an elected bureaucracy. Besides Switzerland manages to stay autonomous and so do most of the Nordic countries - and that's just in Europe.I've been buying from China through our company for 16 years now and i will say that the progress they have made and the rate they seem to catch up with technology astounds me. The Chinese goverment purposely keeps the currency low which stimulates production and until such time when China introduces a minimum wage and conditions similar to the UK i think that they will continue to grow at a massive rate that the UK can compete with. The only way the UK and other western countries can compate is through advancing technology and keeping one step ahead but this doesn't last long as they catch up fast.
A lot of the smaller stuff we sold tons of in the 90's are now obsolete, not because we are expensive simply because we just cant compete with Chinese efficiency and wage levels. therefore we have had to move up our game with more technological advanced bigger products. We are always looking over our shoulder though.
Unless the goverment and the west turns round one day and hikes up massively import duties or puts in place trade embargo for whatever reason then i cant see China collapsing, looking at manufacturing in this country, doing that would be suicide.
Will they collapse in a big heap, who knows? - possibly and probably one day, but not in the forseeable future in my opinion.
A lot of the smaller stuff we sold tons of in the 90's are now obsolete, not because we are expensive simply because we just cant compete with Chinese efficiency and wage levels. therefore we have had to move up our game with more technological advanced bigger products. We are always looking over our shoulder though.
Unless the goverment and the west turns round one day and hikes up massively import duties or puts in place trade embargo for whatever reason then i cant see China collapsing, looking at manufacturing in this country, doing that would be suicide.
Will they collapse in a big heap, who knows? - possibly and probably one day, but not in the forseeable future in my opinion.
Edited by CHIEF on Wednesday 10th February 09:46
CHIEF said:
I've been buying from China through our company for 16 years now and i will say that the progress they have made and the rate they seem to catch up with technology astounds me. The Chinese goverment purposely keeps the currency low which stimulates production and until such time when China introduces a minimum wage and conditions similar to the UK i think that they will continue to grow at a massive rate that the UK can compete with. The only way the UK and other western countries can compate is through advancing technology and keeping one step ahead but..... this doesn't last long as they catch up fast.
A lot of the smaller stuff we sold tons of in the 90's are now obsolete, not because we are expensive simply because we just cant compete with Chinese efficiency and wage levels. therefore we have had to move up our game with more technological advanced bigger products. We are always looking over our shoulder though.
Unless the goverment and the west turns round one day and hikes up massively import duties or puts in place trade embargo for whatever reason then i cant see China collapsing, looking at manufacturing in this country, doing that would be suicide.
Will they collapse in a big heap, who knows? - possibly and probably one day, but not in the forseeable future in my opinion.
Check out their demographics.A lot of the smaller stuff we sold tons of in the 90's are now obsolete, not because we are expensive simply because we just cant compete with Chinese efficiency and wage levels. therefore we have had to move up our game with more technological advanced bigger products. We are always looking over our shoulder though.
Unless the goverment and the west turns round one day and hikes up massively import duties or puts in place trade embargo for whatever reason then i cant see China collapsing, looking at manufacturing in this country, doing that would be suicide.
Will they collapse in a big heap, who knows? - possibly and probably one day, but not in the forseeable future in my opinion.
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