Binyam Mohamed - Milliband aware of his torture?
Discussion
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/terrorism-i...
Seems that despite assertions to the contrary, judges have ruled that British Intelligence Services were well aware of Binyam Mohamed's treatment in a couple of the American's 'black' prisons, such as Guantanamo....
Taking this as fact (and indeed, a judge's ruling should IMO be taken as such unless evidence is available strongly disputing it), would it therefore be likely that Millipede was equally aware?
Seems that like the Yank's use of hidden prisons, our Government is just as happy to break signed conventions ruling out certain practices in the dubious aim of 'fighting terror'.
Wonder if this sort of thing was needed in the bad ol' days of the IRA?
Seems that despite assertions to the contrary, judges have ruled that British Intelligence Services were well aware of Binyam Mohamed's treatment in a couple of the American's 'black' prisons, such as Guantanamo....
Taking this as fact (and indeed, a judge's ruling should IMO be taken as such unless evidence is available strongly disputing it), would it therefore be likely that Millipede was equally aware?
Seems that like the Yank's use of hidden prisons, our Government is just as happy to break signed conventions ruling out certain practices in the dubious aim of 'fighting terror'.
Wonder if this sort of thing was needed in the bad ol' days of the IRA?
Hold on just a second...
Just pointing this out...
...do carry on.
the telegraph said:
Mr Mohamed was deprived of sleep, "shackled" during interrogation and threatened with the idea that he might "disappear"
This is torture? No car batteries hooked up to electrodes. Bamboo under the fingenails. Not even a waterboarding or two.Just pointing this out...
...do carry on.
Edited by ErnestM on Wednesday 10th February 19:47
ErnestM said:
Hold on just a second...
Just pointing this out...
...do carry on.
But Ernest, the "hidden prison" doesn't have a PS2 game in every cell....the savages! the telegraph said:
Mr Mohamed was deprived of sleep, "shackled" during interrogation and threatened with the idea that he might "disappear"
This is torture? No car batteries hooked up to electrodes. Bamboo under the fingenails. Not even a waterboarding or two.Just pointing this out...
...do carry on.
Edited by ErnestM on Wednesday 10th February 19:47
Jimbeaux said:
ErnestM said:
Hold on just a second...
Just pointing this out...
...do carry on.
But Ernest, the "hidden prison" doesn't have a PS2 game in every cell....the savages! the telegraph said:
Mr Mohamed was deprived of sleep, "shackled" during interrogation and threatened with the idea that he might "disappear"
This is torture? No car batteries hooked up to electrodes. Bamboo under the fingenails. Not even a waterboarding or two.Just pointing this out...
...do carry on.
Edited by ErnestM on Wednesday 10th February 19:47
Actually, I'm more concerned by the seemingly recent, both sides of the pond, feeling by Governments that imprisonment without trial, involving actions that I believe both our historical leaders swore never to use, is deemed to be an acceptable way to combat terrorism.
Imvho, if this is true, we've lost the 'war' already.
I am all for strict punitive measures against those who are found, by decision of a jury of peers, to be guilty of crime.
I am also all for a considered approach to punishment and rehabilitation as applicable to the criminal and the offences commited.
But even such clearly mild treatment should be based on a full and complete case, open to review by the public at large.
After all, he's been released, hasn't he? Kinda implies that he wasn't guilty....
Sway said:
Fair play guys, I am just a Yank hating Limey socialist!
Actually, I'm more concerned by the seemingly recent, both sides of the pond, feeling by Governments that imprisonment without trial, involving actions that I believe both our historical leaders swore never to use, is deemed to be an acceptable way to combat terrorism.
Imvho, if this is true, we've lost the 'war' already.
I am all for strict punitive measures against those who are found, by decision of a jury of peers, to be guilty of crime.
I am also all for a considered approach to punishment and rehabilitation as applicable to the criminal and the offences commited.
But even such clearly mild treatment should be based on a full and complete case, open to review by the public at large.
After all, he's been released, hasn't he? Kinda implies that he wasn't guilty....
Never said you were a socialist.Actually, I'm more concerned by the seemingly recent, both sides of the pond, feeling by Governments that imprisonment without trial, involving actions that I believe both our historical leaders swore never to use, is deemed to be an acceptable way to combat terrorism.
Imvho, if this is true, we've lost the 'war' already.
I am all for strict punitive measures against those who are found, by decision of a jury of peers, to be guilty of crime.
I am also all for a considered approach to punishment and rehabilitation as applicable to the criminal and the offences commited.
But even such clearly mild treatment should be based on a full and complete case, open to review by the public at large.
After all, he's been released, hasn't he? Kinda implies that he wasn't guilty....
However, I disagree that this is a law enforcement problem. It isn't. These are not yobs knocking over a fast food joint. These are non-regular combatants attempting to engage our militaries and attempting to bring as much destruction as possible to countries that they have "declared war" on.
We should not be attempting to "rehabilitate" them or seek a judicial remedy to this situation. There is none. The jurisdictional venue arguments alone would be epic.
It is war.
Rule 303 applies.
FarleyRusk said:
Is this the guy who isn't even a British citizen? To be honest I don't think that any of the gitmo detainees will auditioning for the role of islam's mahatma ghandi anytime soon so I really don't give a f
k about his rights.
Absolutely right.k about his rights.There should be a common sense check on stuff like this.
ErnestM said:
Sway said:
Fair play guys, I am just a Yank hating Limey socialist!
Actually, I'm more concerned by the seemingly recent, both sides of the pond, feeling by Governments that imprisonment without trial, involving actions that I believe both our historical leaders swore never to use, is deemed to be an acceptable way to combat terrorism.
Imvho, if this is true, we've lost the 'war' already.
I am all for strict punitive measures against those who are found, by decision of a jury of peers, to be guilty of crime.
I am also all for a considered approach to punishment and rehabilitation as applicable to the criminal and the offences commited.
But even such clearly mild treatment should be based on a full and complete case, open to review by the public at large.
After all, he's been released, hasn't he? Kinda implies that he wasn't guilty....
Never said you were a socialist.Actually, I'm more concerned by the seemingly recent, both sides of the pond, feeling by Governments that imprisonment without trial, involving actions that I believe both our historical leaders swore never to use, is deemed to be an acceptable way to combat terrorism.
Imvho, if this is true, we've lost the 'war' already.
I am all for strict punitive measures against those who are found, by decision of a jury of peers, to be guilty of crime.
I am also all for a considered approach to punishment and rehabilitation as applicable to the criminal and the offences commited.
But even such clearly mild treatment should be based on a full and complete case, open to review by the public at large.
After all, he's been released, hasn't he? Kinda implies that he wasn't guilty....
However, I disagree that this is a law enforcement problem. It isn't. These are not yobs knocking over a fast food joint. These are non-regular combatants attempting to engage our militaries and attempting to bring as much destruction as possible to countries that they have "declared war" on.
We should not be attempting to "rehabilitate" them or seek a judicial remedy to this situation. There is none. The jurisdictional venue arguments alone would be epic.
It is war.
Rule 303 applies.
ErnestM said:
Hold on just a second...
Just pointing this out...
...do carry on.
Amongst other things, he was mutilated with scalpels and beaten repeatedly.the telegraph said:
Mr Mohamed was deprived of sleep, "shackled" during interrogation and threatened with the idea that he might "disappear"
This is torture? No car batteries hooked up to electrodes. Bamboo under the fingenails. Not even a waterboarding or two.Just pointing this out...
...do carry on.
Edited by ErnestM on Wednesday 10th February 19:47
ErnestM said:
However, I disagree that this is a law enforcement problem. It isn't. These are not yobs knocking over a fast food joint. These are non-regular combatants attempting to engage our militaries and attempting to bring as much destruction as possible to countries that they have "declared war" on.
Is he? Why has he been let go then?singlecoil said:
ErnestM said:
It is war.
Either it is war and torture is illegal under the GC or it's not and you need to use the judicial processes. You can't (or shouldn't) have some sort of halfway house. Remember we're meant to be the good guys, meant to have a moral superiority over the enemy...
Of course, then there needs to be a definition of what is torture.
Edited by ewenm on Wednesday 10th February 22:31
FarleyRusk said:
Is this the guy who isn't even a British citizen? To be honest I don't think that any of the gitmo detainees will auditioning for the role of islam's mahatma ghandi anytime soon so I really don't give a fk about his rights.
Rights have to be universal, else one day it will be you.k about his rights.Sway said:
Wonder if this sort of thing was needed in the bad ol' days of the IRA?[quote]
The act they are quoting on the news is from 1972. Apparently this is when Heath backed down on torture in NI, specifically stress positions and sleep deprivation.
The act they are quoting on the news is from 1972. Apparently this is when Heath backed down on torture in NI, specifically stress positions and sleep deprivation.
968 said:
ErnestM said:
Hold on just a second...
Just pointing this out...
...do carry on.
Amongst other things, he was mutilated with scalpels and beaten repeatedly.the telegraph said:
Mr Mohamed was deprived of sleep, "shackled" during interrogation and threatened with the idea that he might "disappear"
This is torture? No car batteries hooked up to electrodes. Bamboo under the fingenails. Not even a waterboarding or two.Just pointing this out...
...do carry on.
Edited by ErnestM on Wednesday 10th February 19:47
ewenm said:
Doesn't the Geneva Convention rule out torture of PoWs?
Either it is war and torture is illegal under the GC or it's not and you need to use the judicial processes. You can't (or shouldn't) have some sort of halfway house. Remember we're meant to be the good guys, meant to have a moral superiority over the enemy...
Of course, then there needs to be a definition of what is torture.
It was never black white, what about spies ? They were traditionally executed when caught and are considered neither POW nor non-POW.Either it is war and torture is illegal under the GC or it's not and you need to use the judicial processes. You can't (or shouldn't) have some sort of halfway house. Remember we're meant to be the good guys, meant to have a moral superiority over the enemy...
Of course, then there needs to be a definition of what is torture.
Edited by ewenm on Wednesday 10th February 22:31
Edited by scorp on Thursday 11th February 00:56
FarleyRusk said:
Is this the guy who isn't even a British citizen? To be honest I don't think that any of the gitmo detainees will auditioning for the role of islam's mahatma ghandi anytime soon so I really don't give a fk about his rights.
Well you might if you had been one of the innocent detainees over there. But they are good at rounding up good guys, all the Japenese living in the states during the war.k about his rights.But one has to wonder why most of the world dont exactly like the americans......
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