Discussion
I don't know if I necessarily agree with that.
It's not black and white as I'm sure it depends on the situation, and feel free to call me a coward, but I'm not sure I'd take a kicking (or worse) to protect someone that I didn't know.
Of course if the roles were reversed I'm sure I'd also appreciate someone stepping in to help which is where it gets hypocritical very quickly.
Bit different if there's three of you as well.
It's not black and white as I'm sure it depends on the situation, and feel free to call me a coward, but I'm not sure I'd take a kicking (or worse) to protect someone that I didn't know.
Of course if the roles were reversed I'm sure I'd also appreciate someone stepping in to help which is where it gets hypocritical very quickly.
Bit different if there's three of you as well.
Busa_Rush said:
"Words fail me" . . . which is probably a first 
It is shocking, like IIRC the PCSO's who didn't help a girl in a pond in the UK last year . . . people are people and have a moral duty to help each other in situations like this, regardless of what a contract might say.
It is shocking, like IIRC the PCSO's who didn't help a girl in a pond in the UK last year . . . people are people and have a moral duty to help each other in situations like this, regardless of what a contract might say.
seriously though, if I was presented with a 15 year old girl getting her head kicked in.....I'd be embarassed and ashamed if my instinct didn't take over.
singlecoil said:
YAD061 said:
seriously though, if I was presented with a 15 year old girl getting her head kicked in.....I'd be embarassed and ashamed if my instinct didn't take over.
Not quite like that, though, and the whole thing didn't last many seconds.singlecoil said:
YAD061 said:
seriously though, if I was presented with a 15 year old girl getting her head kicked in.....I'd be embarassed and ashamed if my instinct didn't take over.
Not quite like that, though, and the whole thing didn't last many seconds.Busa_Rush said:
singlecoil said:
YAD061 said:
seriously though, if I was presented with a 15 year old girl getting her head kicked in.....I'd be embarassed and ashamed if my instinct didn't take over.
Not quite like that, though, and the whole thing didn't last many seconds.IIRC security guards in the US are all on mimimum wage and little or no benefits. If I was one of them no way would I have intervened with enough force to have actually stopped it, as I can be quite sure that there would have been unpleasant consequences, maybe an assault charge, maybe got attacked by the other people in the area.
The whole thing only laster 34 seconds, and most of that was taken up with an apparently even fight.
This will be my only post on this thread!
Having worked as security for a few years previously, the important thing to remember, is that security staff have no powers.
no power to arrest or interfere.
definitely not paid enough to even consider getting involved as it could result in them being injured/prosecuted for something.
most security staff are only there to observe and report.
now, the attack, as an individual, i might have stepped in if i felt safe to do so. as a security officer, i would have done exactly the same as those guys. been on the radio to the control room/police. there was nothing they could legally do.
if the victims life was in danger, seriously in danger, then they could step in and use reasonable force. but nothing else at any other time.
Having worked as security for a few years previously, the important thing to remember, is that security staff have no powers.
no power to arrest or interfere.
definitely not paid enough to even consider getting involved as it could result in them being injured/prosecuted for something.
most security staff are only there to observe and report.
now, the attack, as an individual, i might have stepped in if i felt safe to do so. as a security officer, i would have done exactly the same as those guys. been on the radio to the control room/police. there was nothing they could legally do.
if the victims life was in danger, seriously in danger, then they could step in and use reasonable force. but nothing else at any other time.
singlecoil said:
Busa_Rush said:
singlecoil said:
YAD061 said:
seriously though, if I was presented with a 15 year old girl getting her head kicked in.....I'd be embarassed and ashamed if my instinct didn't take over.
Not quite like that, though, and the whole thing didn't last many seconds.IIRC security guards in the US are all on mimimum wage and little or no benefits. If I was one of them no way would I have intervened with enough force to have actually stopped it, as I can be quite sure that there would have been unpleasant consequences, maybe an assault charge, maybe got attacked by the other people in the area.
The whole thing only laster 34 seconds, and most of that was taken up with an apparently even fight.
The argument is one of responsibility. Are they employed to guard property or keep the peace or what?
Looks pretty shameful whichever way you cut it.
johnfm said:
singlecoil said:
Busa_Rush said:
singlecoil said:
YAD061 said:
seriously though, if I was presented with a 15 year old girl getting her head kicked in.....I'd be embarassed and ashamed if my instinct didn't take over.
Not quite like that, though, and the whole thing didn't last many seconds.IIRC security guards in the US are all on mimimum wage and little or no benefits. If I was one of them no way would I have intervened with enough force to have actually stopped it, as I can be quite sure that there would have been unpleasant consequences, maybe an assault charge, maybe got attacked by the other people in the area.
The whole thing only laster 34 seconds, and most of that was taken up with an apparently even fight.
The argument is one of responsibility. Are they employed to guard property or keep the peace or what?
Looks pretty shameful whichever way you cut it.
t security guard thenYAD061 said:
singlecoil said:
YAD061 said:
seriously though, if I was presented with a 15 year old girl getting her head kicked in.....I'd be embarassed and ashamed if my instinct didn't take over.
Not quite like that, though, and the whole thing didn't last many seconds.I could not live with myself if I had stood by like those twunts. Seriously they need to have a good long look at themselves. I can almost, almost, see a justification in them not getting involved (contracts, accusations, etc) in the initial incident but when the scum came back to kick her in the face a few more times? I really am hard pressed to decide whose behaviour appals me the most between them and the attackers.
As for the "over in seconds" and "might risk getting hurt yourself" comments. Well I have never been in a situation exactly like that one true, but I have been very close to similar, as I am sure many have, and those were not the thoughts in my head at the time, nor did I react the way those 'guards' did.
stew-160's post does set the position out with remarkable clarity, which is why I posted that a review of their position needs to be made, ie what are they REALLY there for?
However imo, the point at which the victim is down on the ground, curled up, with athe attacker stamping on her head and neck plus delivering kicks aimed in that general area is the point at which serious threat to life is clearly present, is not going away and reasonable force could be legally used.
I would have no legal problem with that.
However imo, the point at which the victim is down on the ground, curled up, with athe attacker stamping on her head and neck plus delivering kicks aimed in that general area is the point at which serious threat to life is clearly present, is not going away and reasonable force could be legally used.
I would have no legal problem with that.
"We are very disappointed in what people see in that video," Metro Transit general manager Kevin Desmond said. "It was absolutely unacceptable. I know the (security firm was) also disappointed in the response, but again, the employees were following the letter of the agreement."
and
"Mr Desmond said the company is quickly working on a revised contract, which could include additional training and new guidelines on how and when guards should intervene."
and
""If I was there on the platform, I don't know that I would have stood there," Mr Desmond said."
also says volumes IMO
and
"Mr Desmond said the company is quickly working on a revised contract, which could include additional training and new guidelines on how and when guards should intervene."
and
""If I was there on the platform, I don't know that I would have stood there," Mr Desmond said."
also says volumes IMO
YAD061 said:
"We are very disappointed in what people see in that video," Metro Transit general manager Kevin Desmond said. "It was absolutely unacceptable. I know the (security firm was) also disappointed in the response, but again, the employees were following the letter of the agreement."
and
"Mr Desmond said the company is quickly working on a revised contract, which could include additional training and new guidelines on how and when guards should intervene."
and
""If I was there on the platform, I don't know that I would have stood there," Mr Desmond said."
also says volumes IMO
And all of it said by people whoand
"Mr Desmond said the company is quickly working on a revised contract, which could include additional training and new guidelines on how and when guards should intervene."
and
""If I was there on the platform, I don't know that I would have stood there," Mr Desmond said."
also says volumes IMO
a) weren't there
b) are not security guards
c) have probably looked at the video several times, and therefore have the benefit of hindsight
A much better test would have been to show the video and have stopped it at various points, then allowed those making comments to have said what ought to have happened next, on the first viewing, and with no time to think about it.
singlecoil said:
YAD061 said:
"We are very disappointed in what people see in that video," Metro Transit general manager Kevin Desmond said. "It was absolutely unacceptable. I know the (security firm was) also disappointed in the response, but again, the employees were following the letter of the agreement."
and
"Mr Desmond said the company is quickly working on a revised contract, which could include additional training and new guidelines on how and when guards should intervene."
and
""If I was there on the platform, I don't know that I would have stood there," Mr Desmond said."
also says volumes IMO
And all of it said by people whoand
"Mr Desmond said the company is quickly working on a revised contract, which could include additional training and new guidelines on how and when guards should intervene."
and
""If I was there on the platform, I don't know that I would have stood there," Mr Desmond said."
also says volumes IMO
a) weren't there
b) are not security guards
c) have probably looked at the video several times, and therefore have the benefit of hindsight
A much better test would have been to show the video and have stopped it at various points, then allowed those making comments to have said what ought to have happened next, on the first viewing, and with no time to think about it.
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