Rover K series conversion wiring advice
Discussion
Hi, thanks for stopping by, help wanted on wiring please
looking to modernise my Morris Minor 1000 by fitting Rover K series engine, conversion has been done by www.jlhmorrisminors.co.uk , but is very expensive, was Corgi reg for 7 years previously so handy with a spanner and reasonably confident with the practical mechanical side as its well documented, car will be getting suspension & brake upgrades, also new axle, prop etc but im fine with all that
but have no idea about wiring in cars! :-(, have read a lot on the net & most people are recommending buying a whole donor car and trying to use the existing ECU and loom etc , or there are products like Emerald, Megasquirt, thinking of going with 1.8 vvc although some mention standard 1.8 is easier, as whole donor car then getting help from auto electrician to couple existing electrics onto the Moggy, any ideas on how many hours an auto spark would need?
or is it poss to get rid of a lot of electrics by going with bike carbs on a cut down manifold, or by using smaller engine like 1.4 then upgrading to larger head etc later, dont want it lying around for months so am looking at going for simple fast but less power versus doing it all from the start for the 1.8 vvc
any wiring thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated
looking to modernise my Morris Minor 1000 by fitting Rover K series engine, conversion has been done by www.jlhmorrisminors.co.uk , but is very expensive, was Corgi reg for 7 years previously so handy with a spanner and reasonably confident with the practical mechanical side as its well documented, car will be getting suspension & brake upgrades, also new axle, prop etc but im fine with all that
but have no idea about wiring in cars! :-(, have read a lot on the net & most people are recommending buying a whole donor car and trying to use the existing ECU and loom etc , or there are products like Emerald, Megasquirt, thinking of going with 1.8 vvc although some mention standard 1.8 is easier, as whole donor car then getting help from auto electrician to couple existing electrics onto the Moggy, any ideas on how many hours an auto spark would need?
or is it poss to get rid of a lot of electrics by going with bike carbs on a cut down manifold, or by using smaller engine like 1.4 then upgrading to larger head etc later, dont want it lying around for months so am looking at going for simple fast but less power versus doing it all from the start for the 1.8 vvc
any wiring thoughts or advice would be greatly appreciated
If you re use the Rover ECU you will also need the 5AS and blipper from the donor to go with the engine loom as they are coded together. A Rave CD with all the loom details are available from the likes of ebay.
The VVC was done in 2 strengths. 143bhp MEMS2 and 160bhp MEMS3. They are easy to tell apart as the 143 has the coil packs on the side of the engine and the 160 has 1 on each plug. The 160 tends to be more expensive but to be honest you won't notice the difference on the road between the 2.
Using an Emerald ECU may make things a little easier as they will do a loom for it. The emerald would cost the same as the engine and all the standard bits. The emerald will give you a bit more power on the standard engine and allow you to upgrade to Jenvey throttle bodies etc later. I would imagine that even though they can supply a standard map you would still need it tweaking on a rolling road. Having read about this on Emeralds website this could be expensive as it's quite complicated because of the VVC.
The VVC was done in 2 strengths. 143bhp MEMS2 and 160bhp MEMS3. They are easy to tell apart as the 143 has the coil packs on the side of the engine and the 160 has 1 on each plug. The 160 tends to be more expensive but to be honest you won't notice the difference on the road between the 2.
Using an Emerald ECU may make things a little easier as they will do a loom for it. The emerald would cost the same as the engine and all the standard bits. The emerald will give you a bit more power on the standard engine and allow you to upgrade to Jenvey throttle bodies etc later. I would imagine that even though they can supply a standard map you would still need it tweaking on a rolling road. Having read about this on Emeralds website this could be expensive as it's quite complicated because of the VVC.
Edited by rdodger on Thursday 11th February 18:24
If it's a total conversion I don't see why a VVC would be anymore work than a non-VVC 1.8. Like Rog says the MEMS3 is generally more expensive if you want to do it more on the cheap I'd go for the 143. It'd be more work going to VVC if say you already had a non vvc k series in place. But considering it will need a total re-wire either way you may aswell just go for whichever you want. The MEMS2 143 isn't mappable either, whereas the 160VVC MEMS3 as found in the trophy MGTF's, is mappable for more power...if that's what you're after. If you just want to modernise your car a bit then the normal non-VVC 1.8 should still be a massive step in the right direction and will be cheaper than a VVC. All the K series are the same physically too so if you're going to do it you may as well go the whole hog! Considering you are after fitting a modern motor into a historic car I would want as much of the doner cars loom etc as possible. Again as Rog said you want an ecu and fob off the same car too, either that or you could use a talon code generator.
In my opinion, an Emerald, DTA, Omex etc ECU would be a waste of money for what you want to do, you would be better off trying to get the standard to work instead of blowing loads of money on a stand-alone ECU. Don't get me wrong, they are the business, but not really necessary for your application. Again, if you're looking to modernise...can't see the point in bike carbs. I'd try and transplant a standard working unit from the doner to the moggy, you're always best off having too many bits than not enough too!
In my opinion, an Emerald, DTA, Omex etc ECU would be a waste of money for what you want to do, you would be better off trying to get the standard to work instead of blowing loads of money on a stand-alone ECU. Don't get me wrong, they are the business, but not really necessary for your application. Again, if you're looking to modernise...can't see the point in bike carbs. I'd try and transplant a standard working unit from the doner to the moggy, you're always best off having too many bits than not enough too!
Edited by yazza54 on Thursday 11th February 20:55
thanks for your input Rdodger & Yazz54, appreciate it,
i would try to do as much mechanicals as poss & get someone to do the wiring for me, any guesses on how long an auto spark would to complete wiring side of things only given a complete car?
if i wasnt bothered about fuel economy for a weekend car, would the bike carbs or dellortos simplify things a lot?
i would try to do as much mechanicals as poss & get someone to do the wiring for me, any guesses on how long an auto spark would to complete wiring side of things only given a complete car?
if i wasnt bothered about fuel economy for a weekend car, would the bike carbs or dellortos simplify things a lot?
bobbybo said:
thanks for your input Rdodger & Yazz54, appreciate it,
i would try to do as much mechanicals as poss & get someone to do the wiring for me, any guesses on how long an auto spark would to complete wiring side of things only given a complete car?
if i wasnt bothered about fuel economy for a weekend car, would the bike carbs or dellortos simplify things a lot?
I don't think it would all that much, it could open a can of worms, on my MEMS3 vvc 160 the coils are powered and triggered from the same loom the injectors are on... I'd do as much as you can, all mechanically sound, and then get a k series wiring wizard to wire it for you, so thats the only part thats out of your hands.i would try to do as much mechanicals as poss & get someone to do the wiring for me, any guesses on how long an auto spark would to complete wiring side of things only given a complete car?
if i wasnt bothered about fuel economy for a weekend car, would the bike carbs or dellortos simplify things a lot?
It's not just the economy with carbs either, they aren't as refined as injection. My dad has a brand new set of Dellorto 45's...they were a good 500 quid ... so not really a saving for you to go that route either.. you'd need a manifold to suit them too. All adds up, I'd get a working system from one car and make it work in yours. Save your money on your own labour, then get the last hurdle done properly if you can't do it yourself in my opinion
If we're talking solid days to wire, maybe 2/3? After all it is only a case of making it run. I wouldn't get a normal spark though, you want someone who does K series stuff and knows them inside out. It could take your average spark a day to work out what he's doing, whereas someone with specific knowledge on the K will know what he's doing straight away.
Edited by yazza54 on Thursday 11th February 21:15
I've just stripped a 1.6 rover I bought it a year ago and ran it till tax ran out. The car had minor panel damage and wasnt worth anything so I stripped it with the intention of keeping the engine for my ginetta or somthing else (Although chances are it will be on ebay soon).
In my opinion you should keep the entire loom, I looked into the various ways of getting it to work. unless your willing to spend £500+ for a ecu, your best bet is just to use the rover loom and ecu. If you want to most of the stuff is easy to swap, and you know it works. its just a case of unpluging everything on the rover (which isnt as easy as it sounds!) and pluging it back together in your car replaceing your existing wireing comletely. At least thats what I intended to do.
In my opinion you should keep the entire loom, I looked into the various ways of getting it to work. unless your willing to spend £500+ for a ecu, your best bet is just to use the rover loom and ecu. If you want to most of the stuff is easy to swap, and you know it works. its just a case of unpluging everything on the rover (which isnt as easy as it sounds!) and pluging it back together in your car replaceing your existing wireing comletely. At least thats what I intended to do.
^^^^^^^^^^^
Yep I'd go that route. If you know what the original engine is from, and you have the loom as well, then it will be much easier for the tech to link up for you, since he will be able to look up all the wiring colours on the loom. Not all the K series looms have the same colour coding!
My first modified car was a minor. In 1968 when I was 22, I bought a really nice moggie with the first of the OHV 'A' series engines.
At 803cc this was never going to set the world alight. So I obtained a 1098cc version, and took it apart for a re-build. The crank and flywheel were sent away for lightening and balancing. The block was +60 bored and I refitted the crank with steel straps over the main bearings. I bought new low compression pistons, and sent them away to have the skirts reduced. The rods were shot peened and with the pistons balanced.
On the head, I replaced the std exhaust with 'S' type valves with their larger seats, and flowed and polished the head. (there's a lot of removal work to do on the A series head). I then equalised the combustion chamber volumes and had the head skimmed to bring the c/r to 8.5:1.
I then reassembled the engine, and put it into the moggie. I bolted a Shorrocks C75B blower on the side which sucked through a 1¾ SU carb.
I spent many hours playing with the SU, since the only way to get the right needle/jet was by trial and error, and there was no way of measuring what was happening under load, only by road test and looking at the colour of the exhaust and smoke output! Another trial and error job was the advance/retard in the distributor.
The original power of the 803cc engine was stated at 30BHP, I estimate that my supercharged 1100 which would do 6500rpm would probably have put out about 65bhp (wow!) which was nearly double the original power for the car.
Always had trouble getting it to stop....and I learned a lot about 'driving round' chassis problems!
So; please do keep us posted, I'd really like a moggie pick up with some of the bits that are available now! I should think that a 150 K series would make it quite quick(aka exciting!)
Yep I'd go that route. If you know what the original engine is from, and you have the loom as well, then it will be much easier for the tech to link up for you, since he will be able to look up all the wiring colours on the loom. Not all the K series looms have the same colour coding!
My first modified car was a minor. In 1968 when I was 22, I bought a really nice moggie with the first of the OHV 'A' series engines.
At 803cc this was never going to set the world alight. So I obtained a 1098cc version, and took it apart for a re-build. The crank and flywheel were sent away for lightening and balancing. The block was +60 bored and I refitted the crank with steel straps over the main bearings. I bought new low compression pistons, and sent them away to have the skirts reduced. The rods were shot peened and with the pistons balanced.
On the head, I replaced the std exhaust with 'S' type valves with their larger seats, and flowed and polished the head. (there's a lot of removal work to do on the A series head). I then equalised the combustion chamber volumes and had the head skimmed to bring the c/r to 8.5:1.
I then reassembled the engine, and put it into the moggie. I bolted a Shorrocks C75B blower on the side which sucked through a 1¾ SU carb.
I spent many hours playing with the SU, since the only way to get the right needle/jet was by trial and error, and there was no way of measuring what was happening under load, only by road test and looking at the colour of the exhaust and smoke output! Another trial and error job was the advance/retard in the distributor.
The original power of the 803cc engine was stated at 30BHP, I estimate that my supercharged 1100 which would do 6500rpm would probably have put out about 65bhp (wow!) which was nearly double the original power for the car.
Always had trouble getting it to stop....and I learned a lot about 'driving round' chassis problems!
So; please do keep us posted, I'd really like a moggie pick up with some of the bits that are available now! I should think that a 150 K series would make it quite quick(aka exciting!)
nice one Paul, I learned in the MM so have been keen to get a classic with some go for a while, yes 150 hp would be loads for a lightweight car, heard they are only about 800kg, even the carbd 1.4 k series from an old metro would be 75hp would drive the mm around town nicely, until i get more cash together for a vvc. A lot of cash needed initially to do the brakes to discs, and upgrade front & back shock sytems, custom prop, new axle, wheels tyres, custom bellhousing, so looking to fit the cheaper 1.4 carb k to start then upgrade later, good to hear from you
I previously had a Fiat Twink (132 supermiafiori) powered maoggie traveller, The car was an ex royal air force staff car and had been fully restored with new wood and everything done, the guy who built it let his wife drive it and she pulled out in front of a 7.5 tonne truck which effectively destroyed everything forward of the bulkhead. I bought the car as a insurance right off with the intentention of a standard restoration, however a visit to the knebworth classic car show introduced me to the delights of Twink Moggies. A few grand later and I had a 2 litre 5 speed, proper wishbone front suspension, disc brakes all round Moggie which was so much fun to drive.
There is a guy who built a 1800 turbo diesel moggie 2 door which I bet is a laugh to own. I have harboured thoughts of building a 'K' series moggie to use as an everyday commuter car. No tax, cheap to insure and with a 16 or 14 injected K would be cheap to run too. Time is the only thing I don't have but my daughter who is nearly 12 thinks that Moggies are pretty cool so i may have to build her one as a first car.
Keep us updated on the build and good luck.
Steve
There is a guy who built a 1800 turbo diesel moggie 2 door which I bet is a laugh to own. I have harboured thoughts of building a 'K' series moggie to use as an everyday commuter car. No tax, cheap to insure and with a 16 or 14 injected K would be cheap to run too. Time is the only thing I don't have but my daughter who is nearly 12 thinks that Moggies are pretty cool so i may have to build her one as a first car.
Keep us updated on the build and good luck.
Steve
Gassing Station | Kit Cars | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff