Architect Problem Help
Discussion
Hi guys
Basically to cut a long story short. We have been trying for the last 4 years to knock down our house and rebuild it. Our architect put in a first set of plans 4 years ago which was refused to to height and mass bulk. A little while later, he brought his developer mate in to buy our next door neighbour. He then submitted more plans for both neighbours (or now developers house) and our house. This was refused again as the 2 houses he submitted this time were even taller and bigger.
We chatted to the planning guys and they said if our architect had chatted to them before, they would have told him it was not acceptable, rather than having to wait the whole 8 weeks. Its obvious now it would not be acceptable as the first one was refused. He lied his way and said the planning woman said it would be fine. A lot of time later....and a 3rd set of plans. We had a weird shaped boundary, almost like an L shape, so the architect submitted plans with the boundary straightened between us...so the developer gains in the back and we gained in the front...a simple land swap they said.
The new plans were approved. Then the developer for some reason thought he was going to build our house, he already registered our house with NHBC without any discussion. He then said he would build our house first and then build theirs afterwards...which obviously rang alarm bells in our ehad that they wanted to build their house at our expense. His final quote was £250,000 more than all the other builders, so we found another good home builder and went with them instead. When we did this...the developer went and put boarding up on the old L shaped boundary so we could not build, as the house had to be a metre from boundary, so we had to put in for planning again to have the house position moved.
for all this initial crap, we forked out a ridiculous £14,000 to the architect.
Now a year on after we have built our house, he has sent what seems to be fake manufactured invoices for another £12,000 with no proper break downs. We have confronted him on this and many other issues that have arisen in the past, on how he has colluded with the developer to do us over. How can such simple cad drawings of moving the breakfast room slightly and position changes come up to a ridiculous sum.
He is now stating that if not paid in full he holds all the copyrights to the design of our house and will send debt collectors. Bare in mind we have no contract with this guy and no agreed sums.
I have a meeting with him tomorrow as he said he wants to come and see me...anything I could say in defense probably? or any ideas?
soz for the essay
Basically to cut a long story short. We have been trying for the last 4 years to knock down our house and rebuild it. Our architect put in a first set of plans 4 years ago which was refused to to height and mass bulk. A little while later, he brought his developer mate in to buy our next door neighbour. He then submitted more plans for both neighbours (or now developers house) and our house. This was refused again as the 2 houses he submitted this time were even taller and bigger.
We chatted to the planning guys and they said if our architect had chatted to them before, they would have told him it was not acceptable, rather than having to wait the whole 8 weeks. Its obvious now it would not be acceptable as the first one was refused. He lied his way and said the planning woman said it would be fine. A lot of time later....and a 3rd set of plans. We had a weird shaped boundary, almost like an L shape, so the architect submitted plans with the boundary straightened between us...so the developer gains in the back and we gained in the front...a simple land swap they said.
The new plans were approved. Then the developer for some reason thought he was going to build our house, he already registered our house with NHBC without any discussion. He then said he would build our house first and then build theirs afterwards...which obviously rang alarm bells in our ehad that they wanted to build their house at our expense. His final quote was £250,000 more than all the other builders, so we found another good home builder and went with them instead. When we did this...the developer went and put boarding up on the old L shaped boundary so we could not build, as the house had to be a metre from boundary, so we had to put in for planning again to have the house position moved.
for all this initial crap, we forked out a ridiculous £14,000 to the architect.
Now a year on after we have built our house, he has sent what seems to be fake manufactured invoices for another £12,000 with no proper break downs. We have confronted him on this and many other issues that have arisen in the past, on how he has colluded with the developer to do us over. How can such simple cad drawings of moving the breakfast room slightly and position changes come up to a ridiculous sum.
He is now stating that if not paid in full he holds all the copyrights to the design of our house and will send debt collectors. Bare in mind we have no contract with this guy and no agreed sums.
I have a meeting with him tomorrow as he said he wants to come and see me...anything I could say in defense probably? or any ideas?
soz for the essay
I've just skimmed through your post, but it appears you've been either shafted (or at the very least, taken for a ride).
Seeing as you are taking tens of thousands of pounds (and a quote that was a quarter of a million higher than anyone elses??), I'd be speaking to a solicitor pronto, and ensure all comms with builders/architects goes through him. A few hundered pounds spent with them could make all the difference (and less hassle for you).
Seeing as you are taking tens of thousands of pounds (and a quote that was a quarter of a million higher than anyone elses??), I'd be speaking to a solicitor pronto, and ensure all comms with builders/architects goes through him. A few hundered pounds spent with them could make all the difference (and less hassle for you).
monthefish said:
I've just skimmed through your post, but it appears you've been either shafted (or at the very least, taken for a ride).
Seeing as you are taking tens of thousands of pounds (and a quote that was a quarter of a million higher than anyone elses??), I'd be speaking to a solicitor pronto, and ensure all comms with builders/architects goes through him. A few hundered pounds spent with them could make all the difference (and less hassle for you).
I would agree with this. Architect?? Sounds more like a criminal!!Seeing as you are taking tens of thousands of pounds (and a quote that was a quarter of a million higher than anyone elses??), I'd be speaking to a solicitor pronto, and ensure all comms with builders/architects goes through him. A few hundered pounds spent with them could make all the difference (and less hassle for you).
Soovy said:
See a solicitor.
Quick.
You have no written contract? You're completely bonkers.
A lesson to us all. Good luck.Quick.
You have no written contract? You're completely bonkers.
(ETA FWIW the arch will have to show some sort of justification for the remaining £12k whick does appear to be over the top by a factor of 10.)
Edited by JR on Wednesday 17th February 11:30
my thoughts too. Sounds very unprofessional.I'd speak to the RIBA if he's registered.
I was also under the impression a debt collector couldn't be instructed whilst the debt was in dispute, which it is if he cannot justify he's fee's, I think that if additional fee's were going to be required they should be agreed in writing prior to the work being done.
I wouldn't like to comment on the fee without seeing what service he was providing and how bespoke the house was.
I know in the past I've worked on somewhere in the region of £2k a house for working drawings for developers and also had fee's of over £100k for major alterations for a listed house which included a fair bit of management. So I'm not sure how anyone can say £14k is unreasonable without knowing more.
I was also under the impression a debt collector couldn't be instructed whilst the debt was in dispute, which it is if he cannot justify he's fee's, I think that if additional fee's were going to be required they should be agreed in writing prior to the work being done.
I wouldn't like to comment on the fee without seeing what service he was providing and how bespoke the house was.
I know in the past I've worked on somewhere in the region of £2k a house for working drawings for developers and also had fee's of over £100k for major alterations for a listed house which included a fair bit of management. So I'm not sure how anyone can say £14k is unreasonable without knowing more.
Edited by andye30m3 on Wednesday 17th February 17:39
andye30m3 said:
I know in the past I've worked on somewhere in the region of £2k a house for working drawings for developers and also had fee's of over £100k for major alterations for a listed house which included a fair bit of management. So I'm not sure how anyone can say £14k is unreasonable without knowing more.
A fair point but we're talking about £26K here not £14K though. (14+12)Several years ago I was taken to Court (Crown) by an eccentric architect, with most of the defence legal work being carried out by myself, and only loosing my nerve and commissioning a solicitor to represent me, just a few days before the hearing.
Briefly the case involved around my refusal to pay the architect’s fee/bill, after the architect had been plans forward for planning approval, without first receiving my approval and informing me of the planning application.
Although I had, had discussions with the architect, I had seen the drawings and plans, the plans/drawings were so outlandish, that the property would have been more suitable on the French Riviera than in rural Gloucestershire.
Although the Court found in my favour, noting that the architect being a professional person, had failed to state in writing the terms/fees of his engagement with me, and the failure to do the same, was unprofessional. Each party had to cover their own legal costs, which really meant the architect should have just walked away without pursuing legal action.
Eventually I did find an architect, I did get planning permission and did get prices to build the house, those three prices ranging from £80k to £170k, and when I asked the above for his advice on who I should use, he replied “Go for the cheapest quote, if your architect is going to oversee the building construction.
How the building of my home went is for another day, another posting…..
To the OP, your story sounds a lot like my architect and builders, you at first need to front it out, possibly if the matter goes further using a friendly solicitor.
Briefly the case involved around my refusal to pay the architect’s fee/bill, after the architect had been plans forward for planning approval, without first receiving my approval and informing me of the planning application.
Although I had, had discussions with the architect, I had seen the drawings and plans, the plans/drawings were so outlandish, that the property would have been more suitable on the French Riviera than in rural Gloucestershire.
Although the Court found in my favour, noting that the architect being a professional person, had failed to state in writing the terms/fees of his engagement with me, and the failure to do the same, was unprofessional. Each party had to cover their own legal costs, which really meant the architect should have just walked away without pursuing legal action.
Eventually I did find an architect, I did get planning permission and did get prices to build the house, those three prices ranging from £80k to £170k, and when I asked the above for his advice on who I should use, he replied “Go for the cheapest quote, if your architect is going to oversee the building construction.
How the building of my home went is for another day, another posting…..
To the OP, your story sounds a lot like my architect and builders, you at first need to front it out, possibly if the matter goes further using a friendly solicitor.
I don't really want to get involved with this thread, but I would make three brief observations:
Firstly, I would agree with Soovy:
Secondly, I am keenly aware that there are two sides to every story and whilst I am in no position to judge the rights and wrongs of this particular case, in your Architect's defence I would have to say that this:
...whilst being exactly what I would expect a Planning Officer to say, is not always what happens in practice; 'minor' (8-week) applications are often put to one side due to pressure of larger applications until it's too late to react with anything other than a refusal within the application period, and thirdly, this...
...sounds horribly familar and does not tell me he was lying. If I had £1,000 for every pre-application consultation where I've had a 'yes, that looks fine, should be no problem', only for the Planning Offcier to do a complete and bare-faced U-turn during the formal application period due to pressure from Planning colleagues, Statutory Consultees or Elected Members, I'd now be retired to the South of France and driving a Lamborghini.
Of course I may be being biased, but I can at least say that I am both poacher and gamekeeper in this case, being both an Architect and a guy who's responsible for commissioning and managing external Architects in my day-to-day job.
They (we) do have a habit of racking up huge additional bills if you don't manage them (us) correctly, but I'm equally sure that they (we) often do so with the best professional intentions and, in their (our) eyes at least (and with some justification when you know how much work can be involved) every penny will be justifiable.
Firstly, I would agree with Soovy:
Soovy said:
You have no written contract? You're completely bonkers.
... though arguably the Architect must have been equally bonkers. It is normal practice to agree a brief then sign written terms of engagement when employing any professional Architect. If either side was naive enough not to do so, then fankly I have very limited sympathy.Secondly, I am keenly aware that there are two sides to every story and whilst I am in no position to judge the rights and wrongs of this particular case, in your Architect's defence I would have to say that this:
0to60 said:
..the planning guys said if our architect had chatted to them before, they would have told him it was not acceptable, rather than having to wait the whole 8 weeks.
...whilst being exactly what I would expect a Planning Officer to say, is not always what happens in practice; 'minor' (8-week) applications are often put to one side due to pressure of larger applications until it's too late to react with anything other than a refusal within the application period, and thirdly, this...
0to60 said:
..the planning woman said it would be fine.
...sounds horribly familar and does not tell me he was lying. If I had £1,000 for every pre-application consultation where I've had a 'yes, that looks fine, should be no problem', only for the Planning Offcier to do a complete and bare-faced U-turn during the formal application period due to pressure from Planning colleagues, Statutory Consultees or Elected Members, I'd now be retired to the South of France and driving a Lamborghini.
Of course I may be being biased, but I can at least say that I am both poacher and gamekeeper in this case, being both an Architect and a guy who's responsible for commissioning and managing external Architects in my day-to-day job.
They (we) do have a habit of racking up huge additional bills if you don't manage them (us) correctly, but I'm equally sure that they (we) often do so with the best professional intentions and, in their (our) eyes at least (and with some justification when you know how much work can be involved) every penny will be justifiable.
Hi Guys
Thanks for all your replies...and completely agree with non biased opinions.
Like I mentioned before...the story is so long, so bits have been missed out. So will clear up some points raised.
We had an initial contract on agreement of price for the FIRST application. All fees we paid off for this. It's all the subsequent false applications afterwards....and ridiculous costs for moving the breakfast room at the back of the house (like a conservatory) accross by 1 metre on a CAD drawing (charge for this...£2,200) his costs of submitting to the planning etc are hundreds of pounds over the planning submission fee, and he has thrown in VAT on top which the council do not charge....and, you are not charged a 2nd fee if alterations are done within a year (whereas he has charged for these submissions too).
Another point is his cost has no relevance to the overall cost of the build. The FIRST APPLICATION agreement was a one off fee.
The new (as we class at home) false invoices show that his invoice numbers and dates to not even correlate correctly. It is as if he is just trying to pull this out of a hat now.
Thanks for all your replies...and completely agree with non biased opinions.
Like I mentioned before...the story is so long, so bits have been missed out. So will clear up some points raised.
We had an initial contract on agreement of price for the FIRST application. All fees we paid off for this. It's all the subsequent false applications afterwards....and ridiculous costs for moving the breakfast room at the back of the house (like a conservatory) accross by 1 metre on a CAD drawing (charge for this...£2,200) his costs of submitting to the planning etc are hundreds of pounds over the planning submission fee, and he has thrown in VAT on top which the council do not charge....and, you are not charged a 2nd fee if alterations are done within a year (whereas he has charged for these submissions too).
Another point is his cost has no relevance to the overall cost of the build. The FIRST APPLICATION agreement was a one off fee.
The new (as we class at home) false invoices show that his invoice numbers and dates to not even correlate correctly. It is as if he is just trying to pull this out of a hat now.
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