Any solicitors about? Change of deeds.
Discussion
My mother died in September 2007.
About six months ago it was discovered by us (the children) that she had left a will and in that will she stated that she wanted her half of the house to go to the four children.
Nobody knows exactly what has happened but it would appear that when our father went to the building society with an insurance cheque to pay off the morgage on the house, the deeds of the house were put in his sole name.
We found out leter that he had a copy of the will (as did the solicitor) but he didn't tell anyone and says he didn't realise he had a copy.
We are now having to pay to get the deeds of the house corrected.
What I would like to know is:
1)How is it possible that a will was made by my mother but that in the two years since her death nobody was contacted with this information?
2)How is it possible that the deeds to a house were handed over by the building society in the name of one person when a will had been made, with no request for official documents with signatures?
3)Would the building society have asked my father to sign a document swearing that there was no will before handing over the deeds?
Why were no procedural checks made before handing the deeds over.
About six months ago it was discovered by us (the children) that she had left a will and in that will she stated that she wanted her half of the house to go to the four children.
Nobody knows exactly what has happened but it would appear that when our father went to the building society with an insurance cheque to pay off the morgage on the house, the deeds of the house were put in his sole name.
We found out leter that he had a copy of the will (as did the solicitor) but he didn't tell anyone and says he didn't realise he had a copy.
We are now having to pay to get the deeds of the house corrected.
What I would like to know is:
1)How is it possible that a will was made by my mother but that in the two years since her death nobody was contacted with this information?
2)How is it possible that the deeds to a house were handed over by the building society in the name of one person when a will had been made, with no request for official documents with signatures?
3)Would the building society have asked my father to sign a document swearing that there was no will before handing over the deeds?
Why were no procedural checks made before handing the deeds over.
Edited by Driller on Thursday 18th February 13:27
anonymous said:
[redacted]
Yes this...was everything well in Familyland pre her death? Were your parents "together"? I wonder if they had been separated that there may be evidence that she severed the joint tenancy. She could have done that just by way of correspondence between them and if her will was made after that time and she received advice then there may be evidence that she severed the tenancy. Who prepared the will? Who were the executors under the will?
If they were tenants in common, then your mother could have willed her share of the house any way she wished.Thanks for all the replies chaps (this place never fails to impress me).
I am a complete idiot when it comes to this stuff and this joint tenancy thing is new to me and I need to ask about this.
The embarrassing thing is that my mother was actually a secretary...for a solicitor for many years. It was this solicitor who was the executor of the will. Apparently my mother had set up a trust before she died for share of the house, if that answers the joint tenancy question.
I have asked one of the solicitors in the firm why nothing was triggered by my mother's death and she said that she took the case on only recently and can't explain what has happened. She said "these things hapen sometimes, unfortunately".
I won't say that all was not well in family land but let's just say our mother wanted to ensure our inheritance (well at least half of it). The actions (or lack thereof) of my father seem to confirm she probably did the right thing.
The transfer of deeds is costing money. I don't mind paying for something that has to be done but if it is due to the incompetence of someone then I would like to know, which is why I'm trying to get to the bottom of this.
The solicitor says that she would have had to do the work anyway even if the will had been read at the appropriate time. I don't know enough to know if this is true or not.
I am a complete idiot when it comes to this stuff and this joint tenancy thing is new to me and I need to ask about this.
The embarrassing thing is that my mother was actually a secretary...for a solicitor for many years. It was this solicitor who was the executor of the will. Apparently my mother had set up a trust before she died for share of the house, if that answers the joint tenancy question.
I have asked one of the solicitors in the firm why nothing was triggered by my mother's death and she said that she took the case on only recently and can't explain what has happened. She said "these things hapen sometimes, unfortunately".
I won't say that all was not well in family land but let's just say our mother wanted to ensure our inheritance (well at least half of it). The actions (or lack thereof) of my father seem to confirm she probably did the right thing.
The transfer of deeds is costing money. I don't mind paying for something that has to be done but if it is due to the incompetence of someone then I would like to know, which is why I'm trying to get to the bottom of this.
The solicitor says that she would have had to do the work anyway even if the will had been read at the appropriate time. I don't know enough to know if this is true or not.
You really do need to get to the bottom of the joint tenant/tenant in common issue. Can you post up what it says in the will regarding the trust that you mention?
If the property was held as joint tenants, the issue of the will becomes irrelevant. The house passed to your father the moment she died, and it therefore wasn't an asset that she could validly dispose of in her will.
If it was held as tenants in common, your father shouldn't have transferred it into his sole name and you're going to have to try to unravel all of that - potentially through the court if he won't co-operate.
If the property was held as joint tenants, the issue of the will becomes irrelevant. The house passed to your father the moment she died, and it therefore wasn't an asset that she could validly dispose of in her will.
If it was held as tenants in common, your father shouldn't have transferred it into his sole name and you're going to have to try to unravel all of that - potentially through the court if he won't co-operate.
Lurking Lawyer said:
You really do need to get to the bottom of the joint tenant/tenant in common issue. Can you post up what it says in the will regarding the trust that you mention?
If the property was held as joint tenants, the issue of the will becomes irrelevant. The house passed to your father the moment she died, and it therefore wasn't an asset that she could validly dispose of in her will.
If it was held as tenants in common, your father shouldn't have transferred it into his sole name and you're going to have to try to unravel all of that - potentially through the court if he won't co-operate.
Thanks for that, I'll get a copy and post up the relevant bits ASAP (bearing in mind I live in France).If the property was held as joint tenants, the issue of the will becomes irrelevant. The house passed to your father the moment she died, and it therefore wasn't an asset that she could validly dispose of in her will.
If it was held as tenants in common, your father shouldn't have transferred it into his sole name and you're going to have to try to unravel all of that - potentially through the court if he won't co-operate.
As part of setting up the trust she should have severed or at least been told to sever the joint tenancy and that should all be on record with the solicitor that set it up. You might want to think about asking for sight of their file relating to the will and trust.
If you have any concerns about the conduct of the firm you may wish to think about getting someone else to deal with the matter to ensure transparency.
It's up to the executors to deal with the will and no-one else is likely to flag the existence of a will. The executors should have known that they had been appointed under the will and that a will existed.
Was the solicitor an executor or had your mum appointed one of the kids without telling you?
Hope you get it resolved.
If you have any concerns about the conduct of the firm you may wish to think about getting someone else to deal with the matter to ensure transparency.
It's up to the executors to deal with the will and no-one else is likely to flag the existence of a will. The executors should have known that they had been appointed under the will and that a will existed.
Was the solicitor an executor or had your mum appointed one of the kids without telling you?
Hope you get it resolved.
Thanks again for all the replies guys and thanks Neil for your kind words.
My mother worked for this solicitor for 20 odd years and they got on extremely well so it's all the more strange that this has happened.
There were/are two executors (is that possible?) my elder sister and this solicitor who is a partner in the firm.
As far as I am aware there were no other things in the will but then again I've never seen it...I'm going by what the others have told me.
I'm just now trying to find out about the status regarding joint tenancy or otherwise at the time of her death.
Cheers guys.
My mother worked for this solicitor for 20 odd years and they got on extremely well so it's all the more strange that this has happened.
There were/are two executors (is that possible?) my elder sister and this solicitor who is a partner in the firm.
As far as I am aware there were no other things in the will but then again I've never seen it...I'm going by what the others have told me.
I'm just now trying to find out about the status regarding joint tenancy or otherwise at the time of her death.
Cheers guys.
Moral of the story is if you have made a will make damn sure plenty of people know about it and where it is. Especially those that you have left something to (but don't tell them how much lest you 'fall' down the stairs that night 
)
I deal with Assents and so forth all of the time, just finished one a few minutes before looking in on here. Your mother's solicitors should be falling over themselves to help by the sounds of it.
There are replies from at least 3 solicitors to my certain knowledge and i have yet to disagree with any of the posts made.
BTW if the property was held as TiC and the Will did create a trust leaving her 1/2 share to you all the costs of dealing with the registration, etc, would almost always be born by the estate.
There are far too many possible permutations and questions which would need exact answers to go any further for now but i hope it sorts out okay.
)I deal with Assents and so forth all of the time, just finished one a few minutes before looking in on here. Your mother's solicitors should be falling over themselves to help by the sounds of it.
There are replies from at least 3 solicitors to my certain knowledge and i have yet to disagree with any of the posts made.
BTW if the property was held as TiC and the Will did create a trust leaving her 1/2 share to you all the costs of dealing with the registration, etc, would almost always be born by the estate.
There are far too many possible permutations and questions which would need exact answers to go any further for now but i hope it sorts out okay.
Driller is my brother. This situation is all a bit more complicated than at first might appear.
The old man is a very unconventional person who couldn't be arsed with his sons and he treated our mother pretty appallingly over the years. She realised that if she left everything to him there would be a strong chance that Driller and I would inherit the sum total of one half of one third of bugger all. In fact he hasn't made any attempt whatsoever to even make contact with us since she died.
Mum told me that she was putting her part of the estate into a trust to ensure it is protected when he eventually dies. This was written into her will. Our elder sister and mum's former employer ( a commercial lawyer) are the executors of the will Soon after she died the old man approached me and said that, hypothetically, were he to get involved in a new relationship he would want me to recognise the rights of his new partner to the estate in the event of his death. I replied that it was pointless having such a hypothetical situation because he wasn't in a new relationship.
A few weeks later he announced that he had met another woman.
At about this time it started to bug me that mum's will hadn't been read. I mentioned this to the old man and he replied that there was no will to speak of and that in any case everything in the joint estate had been left to him. I contacted the commercial lawyer and he told me that there was a will and that he had contacted the old man on several occasions to arrange for it to be read, but that the old man had initially been evasive and latterly had said that he wasn't prepared to pay the costs associated with having the will read.
I realised that I had to do something to force matters. Mum had held a share of my business, so I contacted the old man and said that I was in troble because I needed to transfer her share in order to be able to complete my annual return. In order to do that I said I needed to know if she had made provision in her will for the share, or if she had left any documentation concerning it. I let him know that I was incurring fines for late filing in the light of this and that if nothing could be found legal costs would be raised which could be quite substantial and which could jeopardise my business.
He then magically found the will there and then whilst I was on the phone to him and gave a very poor thespian pastiche whilst sucking his teeth and reading it all down the phone to me. It was as if I'd shat in his breakfast.
As a result the will has now been read and the trust fund is in the process of being set up, but this has incurred legal costs. The old man has refused to pay these costs and has abused me and the commercial lawyer. He has made it clear that he is angry that he hasn't got his way.
Being considerably less cynical than me, what Driller is trying to ascertain is whether this could have come about by accident in some way. I am in no doubt about the chain of events.
The old man is a very unconventional person who couldn't be arsed with his sons and he treated our mother pretty appallingly over the years. She realised that if she left everything to him there would be a strong chance that Driller and I would inherit the sum total of one half of one third of bugger all. In fact he hasn't made any attempt whatsoever to even make contact with us since she died.
Mum told me that she was putting her part of the estate into a trust to ensure it is protected when he eventually dies. This was written into her will. Our elder sister and mum's former employer ( a commercial lawyer) are the executors of the will Soon after she died the old man approached me and said that, hypothetically, were he to get involved in a new relationship he would want me to recognise the rights of his new partner to the estate in the event of his death. I replied that it was pointless having such a hypothetical situation because he wasn't in a new relationship.
A few weeks later he announced that he had met another woman.
At about this time it started to bug me that mum's will hadn't been read. I mentioned this to the old man and he replied that there was no will to speak of and that in any case everything in the joint estate had been left to him. I contacted the commercial lawyer and he told me that there was a will and that he had contacted the old man on several occasions to arrange for it to be read, but that the old man had initially been evasive and latterly had said that he wasn't prepared to pay the costs associated with having the will read.
I realised that I had to do something to force matters. Mum had held a share of my business, so I contacted the old man and said that I was in troble because I needed to transfer her share in order to be able to complete my annual return. In order to do that I said I needed to know if she had made provision in her will for the share, or if she had left any documentation concerning it. I let him know that I was incurring fines for late filing in the light of this and that if nothing could be found legal costs would be raised which could be quite substantial and which could jeopardise my business.
He then magically found the will there and then whilst I was on the phone to him and gave a very poor thespian pastiche whilst sucking his teeth and reading it all down the phone to me. It was as if I'd shat in his breakfast.
As a result the will has now been read and the trust fund is in the process of being set up, but this has incurred legal costs. The old man has refused to pay these costs and has abused me and the commercial lawyer. He has made it clear that he is angry that he hasn't got his way.
Being considerably less cynical than me, what Driller is trying to ascertain is whether this could have come about by accident in some way. I am in no doubt about the chain of events.
No, it doesn't sound accidental to me at all, although I suppose in your father's defence, he may not have known the content of the will but given he didn't give the lawyer chance to tell him that isn't much mitigation. (actually I've just re-read MAM's post and it's clear that your father had a copy of the will).
I wonder why the lawyer didn't just get on and deal with the estate? There is no requirement for a will to be read to be effective. He was appointed joint Executor and had a responsibility to get on and deal with the estate.
He didn't really need your father's involvement for that - although perhaps practically he did if he didn't have full details of the assets? It looks to me as if he hasn't complied with his obligations and that puts him (and the rest of you given his friendship with your late Mum) in difficulty.
The other question really has to be what was your elder sister's role in this, did she know that the will existed? If so as executor she had joint responsiblity for dealing with it and ensuring that the terms of the will were carried out. I'm sure you don't want to get involved in this stuff but IIRC my probate modules and TOLATA I think she can be personally liable for not carrying out her obligations as executor and allowing your father to try to remove assets from the estate etc.
...yes Driller, it is likely that there are two executors, I typed "one of the kids" above in error and then couldn't get back in to edit the post as our internet went down, sorry to throw you off track. There are entirely likely to be two executors.
I think you guys may need to consider getting your own advice on this one outside of what the existing lawyer/executor is telling you. You don't have to proceed with any action against him if you think it isn't appropriate but I think you should get decent advice so that you know where the problems are.
Good luck, you don't really need this kind of s
t in these situations do you.
I wonder why the lawyer didn't just get on and deal with the estate? There is no requirement for a will to be read to be effective. He was appointed joint Executor and had a responsibility to get on and deal with the estate.
He didn't really need your father's involvement for that - although perhaps practically he did if he didn't have full details of the assets? It looks to me as if he hasn't complied with his obligations and that puts him (and the rest of you given his friendship with your late Mum) in difficulty.
The other question really has to be what was your elder sister's role in this, did she know that the will existed? If so as executor she had joint responsiblity for dealing with it and ensuring that the terms of the will were carried out. I'm sure you don't want to get involved in this stuff but IIRC my probate modules and TOLATA I think she can be personally liable for not carrying out her obligations as executor and allowing your father to try to remove assets from the estate etc.
...yes Driller, it is likely that there are two executors, I typed "one of the kids" above in error and then couldn't get back in to edit the post as our internet went down, sorry to throw you off track. There are entirely likely to be two executors.
I think you guys may need to consider getting your own advice on this one outside of what the existing lawyer/executor is telling you. You don't have to proceed with any action against him if you think it isn't appropriate but I think you should get decent advice so that you know where the problems are.
Good luck, you don't really need this kind of s
t in these situations do you. Edited by Piglet on Thursday 18th February 17:36
I would like to find out if my father did it deliberately but inspite of this I do wonder how the legal structure involved could have allowed this to happen.
Here is an extract of an email I've just received:
>They held the house as tenants in common. When the house was transferred into your dad's sole name the sole proprietor restriction was left in place. This was not sufficient to protect the beneficiaries' interest as (in theory) a Trustee from outside the family could have been appointed and the house sold without their knowledge.
The correct practice (now in place) is for the house to be held by (Solicitor's name) and (our sister) as Trustees and (our father).<
Could you guys make any comment on this so we could then make a decision on, as Piglet suggests, whether to take this up with another solicitor rather than continue (perhaps inappropriately) here?
Here is an extract of an email I've just received:
>They held the house as tenants in common. When the house was transferred into your dad's sole name the sole proprietor restriction was left in place. This was not sufficient to protect the beneficiaries' interest as (in theory) a Trustee from outside the family could have been appointed and the house sold without their knowledge.
The correct practice (now in place) is for the house to be held by (Solicitor's name) and (our sister) as Trustees and (our father).<
Could you guys make any comment on this so we could then make a decision on, as Piglet suggests, whether to take this up with another solicitor rather than continue (perhaps inappropriately) here?
Edited by Driller on Thursday 18th February 18:04
OK understood. You guys sound pretty sure of the situation as written.
I assume that the "This was not sufficient to protect the beneficiaries' interest as (in theory) a Trustee from outside the family could have been appointed and the house sold without their knowledge." doesn't wash with you?
I assume that the "This was not sufficient to protect the beneficiaries' interest as (in theory) a Trustee from outside the family could have been appointed and the house sold without their knowledge." doesn't wash with you?
Driller said:
OK understood. You guys sound pretty sure of the situation as written.
I assume that the "This was not sufficient to protect the beneficiaries' interest as (in theory) a Trustee from outside the family could have been appointed and the house sold without their knowledge." doesn't wash with you?
That point is that a new purchaser would have been put on notice that there was a Trust in place by the JiT restriction. Where there is a trust in place the interest of the Trust can only be extinguished by "over reaching" a concept by which the purchaser must pay money to two or more Trustee's. Your father could have appointed a second Trustee and a sale would have been valid because there were two Trustees. I assume that the "This was not sufficient to protect the beneficiaries' interest as (in theory) a Trustee from outside the family could have been appointed and the house sold without their knowledge." doesn't wash with you?
I suspect your father would have been commiting some kind of fraud if he did this.
From what you've said I don't think it was the lawyer that dealt with the transfer of the deeds? If so they are in the poo.
I'd also echo talking to the Managing Partner. If you google Legal Complaints you'll get a link to the new body who's name I always forget.
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