What's the next great bike & car engine?
Discussion
I was idly musing on a Sunday afternoon and wondered where we're headed in terms of engines for smaller kit cars.
As I see it we've reached a pretty comfortable plateau with both CEC and BEC. For CEC, the Duratec may not be the very best engine (to avoid an argument with Honda fans) but it's reasonably light, available, not too difficult to tune to 250bhp levels and has a ready market for kit car installation parts. With BECs the capacity & tuning options of the Busa make it the logical choice if you can afford the engine.
So what next? For car engines, about the only way forwards is for a lighter powerplant. The small kit cars (Sevens, etc.) are already starting to become a handful with the power & torque of 250bhp+ engines so there isn't really a big driving force for more power. The trend with the big motor manufacturers seems to be towards smaller, turbocharged engines - do people think these will be the next generation of kit car engines or will the forced induction & greater complexity of electronics hold them back? Not sure how an Emerald would handle things like direct injection, 4x coils on plugs, multiple lambdas as well as boost etc.
I'm not too well read on bike engine matters but it seems that after all these (10!) years there hasn't really been anything to knock the Busa off the top spot. Bikes perhaps are also facing a bit of an equilibrium whereby there isn't the need to put more than 200bhp in a factory motorcycle. The bespoke bike derived V8s are always going to be a niche in my opinion because of the cost of them, works of art though they are.
No disrespect to the larger kit car people (Ultimas etc.) but with more weight & wings I think the horsepower headroom still has room to run with lighter & more powerful engines, plus forced induction is regarded as less of a disadvantage. Maybe this too will be affected by the motor industry's trend to downsize engines & add complexity. I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts, or perhaps tell me I'm getting old and there's no such thing as too much power
As I see it we've reached a pretty comfortable plateau with both CEC and BEC. For CEC, the Duratec may not be the very best engine (to avoid an argument with Honda fans) but it's reasonably light, available, not too difficult to tune to 250bhp levels and has a ready market for kit car installation parts. With BECs the capacity & tuning options of the Busa make it the logical choice if you can afford the engine.
So what next? For car engines, about the only way forwards is for a lighter powerplant. The small kit cars (Sevens, etc.) are already starting to become a handful with the power & torque of 250bhp+ engines so there isn't really a big driving force for more power. The trend with the big motor manufacturers seems to be towards smaller, turbocharged engines - do people think these will be the next generation of kit car engines or will the forced induction & greater complexity of electronics hold them back? Not sure how an Emerald would handle things like direct injection, 4x coils on plugs, multiple lambdas as well as boost etc.
I'm not too well read on bike engine matters but it seems that after all these (10!) years there hasn't really been anything to knock the Busa off the top spot. Bikes perhaps are also facing a bit of an equilibrium whereby there isn't the need to put more than 200bhp in a factory motorcycle. The bespoke bike derived V8s are always going to be a niche in my opinion because of the cost of them, works of art though they are.
No disrespect to the larger kit car people (Ultimas etc.) but with more weight & wings I think the horsepower headroom still has room to run with lighter & more powerful engines, plus forced induction is regarded as less of a disadvantage. Maybe this too will be affected by the motor industry's trend to downsize engines & add complexity. I'd be interested to hear peoples thoughts, or perhaps tell me I'm getting old and there's no such thing as too much power
I think that due to nearly all modern, mass produced, viable donor cars (with the exception of mx5, bmw etc) are now front wheeled drive we will see more of a shift towards mid-engined smaller kit cars. These of course arn't "new" but more and more kits are now tending towards this. The sylva mojo and riot have been around for a while now but with cars like the MK midi, Marlin 5exi and the MEV range of cars it makes more sense as the gearbox and engine don't need to be mixed and matched and the whole unit can be turned around and "bunged" in the back relatively hastle free. The MEV range of cars use the 1st generation focus as a donor with the tried and tested zetec engines and can be very light and a standard engine of circa 120bhp and this is simply not enough for some people. The trouble with this is that front wheel drive mass production cars very rarely have more than 220bhp and so plenty of tuning is required to get a sizable amount of power.
Sorry for going off topic there slightly but i thought it needed to be noted.
Sorry for going off topic there slightly but i thought it needed to be noted.
For Car engined kit cars I don't think you can take the engine in isolation.
MX5, BMW E30, E36 and E46 donors all offer excellent engines along with RWD and excellent transmission, steering, suspension, brakes and wheels. Whilst they are not quite class leading 4cyl engines they are certainly very good and the BMWs could be described as class leading for 6 cylinder engines.
What they may lack in power and light weight when compared to other options are compensated for by the greater conveniance and lower cost of offering a single donor build.
MX5, BMW E30, E36 and E46 donors all offer excellent engines along with RWD and excellent transmission, steering, suspension, brakes and wheels. Whilst they are not quite class leading 4cyl engines they are certainly very good and the BMWs could be described as class leading for 6 cylinder engines.
What they may lack in power and light weight when compared to other options are compensated for by the greater conveniance and lower cost of offering a single donor build.
Edited by Roman on Monday 22 February 22:20
I'd only upgrade my Fury R1 to something with a ZX14 engine. The high revs of a bike engine are just too addictive in a 450Kg car.
I couldn't go back to a car-engined sports car now unless it was <1000Kg, >500bhp and practical. And even then it would have to be as well as my 'proper' sports car.
Less is more :-)
Rob
I couldn't go back to a car-engined sports car now unless it was <1000Kg, >500bhp and practical. And even then it would have to be as well as my 'proper' sports car.
Less is more :-)
Rob
Absolutely agree - ZX14 is the way ahead. Less fragile and cheaper to source (although a bit on the rare side). ZX12 isn't far behind and much easier to get hold of. My ZX14 BEC is supercharged which suits the engine well. Makes 270bhp at flywheel with minimal boost (0.6bar).
PhillipM said:
The ZX14R engine is the next Busa imo, newer, lighter, wider spread of torque, fuel injected, more power, better gearbox, and can easily push 200-220bhp with mild tweaks, an exhaust system and power commander.
[quote=MarlboroCar]Absolutely agree - ZX14 is the way ahead. Less fragile and cheaper to source (although a bit on the rare side). ZX12 isn't far behind and much easier to get hold of. My ZX14 BEC is supercharged which suits the engine well. Makes 270bhp at flywheel with minimal boost (0.6bar).
Oooo! Tell me more please? Got a web site with pics / details?
Rob
Oooo! Tell me more please? Got a web site with pics / details?
Rob
Rob,
Here's a couple of pics. Check out www.spiresportscars.co.uk. Supercharger kit is retailed through TTS - it's located bottom front left of the engine (not in view) and comes with separate oil cooler and intercooler (just visible at the back of the N/S sidepod (bottom of the photo). Total cost approx £3k I believe.
Cheers Adrian
![](http://thumbsnap.com/sc/RRNyIsbV.jpg[/img]</a> <a href="http://thumbsnap.com/v/9S4kr4vr.jpg" Target="_blank">[img]http://thumbsnap.com/sc/9S4kr4vr.jpg)
Here's a couple of pics. Check out www.spiresportscars.co.uk. Supercharger kit is retailed through TTS - it's located bottom front left of the engine (not in view) and comes with separate oil cooler and intercooler (just visible at the back of the N/S sidepod (bottom of the photo). Total cost approx £3k I believe.
Cheers Adrian
lukeb said:
I was idly musing on a Sunday afternoon and wondered where we're headed in terms of engines for smaller kit cars.
Strange, I was thinking along the same lines this afternoon and was just about to post similar when I spotted this.As mentioned previously, a Rocket III engine would be interesting but I'd hate to think what it weighs.
I was also wondering about an engine out of a Vmax.
I guess the trouble with these options is that there's never going to be enough crashed examples to make it worthwhile someone going to the trouble of figuring out things like what the sump solution might be.
As to the Busa Vs ZX14R debate; they're both great engines and I think it's down to personal preferencce in terms of 'what you know'.
Apart from; 'blades, R1's, 'busas and ZX's, can anyone think of anything else which has been 'tried'?
Cheers,
Eric
Suzuki GSXR 750 and 1000 are popular (esp 1000)
Kiltie said:
lukeb said:
I was idly musing on a Sunday afternoon and wondered where we're headed in terms of engines for smaller kit cars.
Strange, I was thinking along the same lines this afternoon and was just about to post similar when I spotted this.As mentioned previously, a Rocket III engine would be interesting but I'd hate to think what it weighs.
I was also wondering about an engine out of a Vmax.
I guess the trouble with these options is that there's never going to be enough crashed examples to make it worthwhile someone going to the trouble of figuring out things like what the sump solution might be.
As to the Busa Vs ZX14R debate; they're both great engines and I think it's down to personal preferencce in terms of 'what you know'.
Apart from; 'blades, R1's, 'busas and ZX's, can anyone think of anything else which has been 'tried'?
Cheers,
Eric
MarlboroCar said:
Josh,
Hoping either 12th or 19th March. Said to your Dad, I'm aiming for 1:10/1:11s. That'll be 5-6 secs quicker than the Megablade. How's the lecturing?
Adrian
Excellent Adrian, you need an on-board camera for that thing, should be quick coming out of bobbies and the esses! Hoping either 12th or 19th March. Said to your Dad, I'm aiming for 1:10/1:11s. That'll be 5-6 secs quicker than the Megablade. How's the lecturing?
Adrian
What tyres does it have?Lecturing is going well thanks, the college Radical will be out for the first Combe race and we are testing on April 1st. Just had a new front end made and all the suspension has been shot blasted and powder coated so will look great.
Let me know how you go, then you can come and play in the Special GTS!
Cheers,
Josh
Josh,
Spire is only running on R888s. 15 inch slicks aren't the easiest to get hold of (unless you know different).
Hopefully I can get over for the 5th April Combe meeting. Good luck with the preps.
Cheers for now,
Adrian
Josh Smith said:
MarlboroCar said:
Josh,
Hoping either 12th or 19th March. Said to your Dad, I'm aiming for 1:10/1:11s. That'll be 5-6 secs quicker than the Megablade. How's the lecturing?
Adrian
Excellent Adrian, you need an on-board camera for that thing, should be quick coming out of bobbies and the esses! Hoping either 12th or 19th March. Said to your Dad, I'm aiming for 1:10/1:11s. That'll be 5-6 secs quicker than the Megablade. How's the lecturing?
Adrian
What tyres does it have?Lecturing is going well thanks, the college Radical will be out for the first Combe race and we are testing on April 1st. Just had a new front end made and all the suspension has been shot blasted and powder coated so will look great.
Let me know how you go, then you can come and play in the Special GTS!
Cheers,
Josh
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