FBMWSH vs FSH

[oli_quick]

Just wanted to gauge opinion about what people (as we've all been buyers) out there think about FBMWSH from the main dealers compared to independents out there...and I am referring to reputable independents here (read, CPC etc).

Also - could we get together a list of the best independents out there for us all to reference?

Thanks guys 'n gals...

[gilford]

On a 8 year old E46 M3 with 80k miles an Indy history would not bother me (it would have to be a good one, not Halfords!) but on a 4 year old M5 it would be essential for me

[mat205125]

gilford said:

On a 8 year old E46 M3 with 80k miles an Indy history would not bother me (it would have to be a good one, not Halfords!) but on a 4 year old M5 it would be essential for me

Yes in agreement with the age of the car, and yes on agreement with the type of car!

Having tinkered with my E36 and now E46 at home, they are "just a car" for most basic jobs, however I'd want a V10 M5 to have been cared for by highly trained experts to ensure it was reliable for a long time.

A V10 M5 or 6 is high on my list of next cars, but the potential cost of a large problem petrifies me, let alone after a 2nd rate specialist, or Phil Mitchell under the arches has started messing about with it.

[belleair302]

I would rather see bills than just a service book. It is not about what the computer jockey at the dealership has reset but where has the money been spent? Invoices beat stamps everytime.

[ukwill]

belleair302 said:

I would rather see bills than just a service book. It is not about what the computer jockey at the dealership has reset but where has the money been spent? Invoices beat stamps everytime.

It doesn't matter to me. If you have a stamped up book from a main dealer or reputable indy, then that's more than adequate. I can easily phone to confirm what work has been carried out - and have done exactly that on most of my purchases. My current M5 has next to bugger all invoices, but has a fully stamped book, which I confirmed was all valid before purchasing.

[Paul_M3]

Given some of the stories I've read about dealers I think I'd prefer it if it wasn't a BMW history!

When I bought my '05 M3 last April, it already had some services done at Independents.

It didn't bother me in the slightest. All I cared about was that it had been serviced on time by somebody.

It didn't make the car worth any less either. The price was the same as it would have been had the car had a FBMWSH. I bought it based on it's condition etc, not where the servicing was done.

[gilford]

Paul_M3 said:

It didn't make the car worth any less either. The price was the same as it would have been had the car had a FBMWSH. I bought it based on it's condition etc, not where the servicing was done.

I think you might find that come resale, a lot of people who think differently.............

[ukwill]

gilford said:

Paul_M3 said:

It didn't make the car worth any less either. The price was the same as it would have been had the car had a FBMWSH. I bought it based on it's condition etc, not where the servicing was done.

I think you might find that come resale, a lot of people who think differently.............

If he keeps it for another 5 years, I doubt it.

[Paul_M3]

gilford said:

Paul_M3 said:

It didn't make the car worth any less either. The price was the same as it would have been had the car had a FBMWSH. I bought it based on it's condition etc, not where the servicing was done.

I think you might find that come resale, a lot of people who think differently.............

Sorry but I don't agree.

If it didn't make any difference when it was 4 years old, why would it when it was 8 years old?

If a car was exactly what you were looking for, would you really be put off by the fact BMW hadn't done all the servicing? You'd honestly wait and hope that an identical car with a FBMWSH came up at the same price?

For every person who is put off, there will be 10 who aren't.

It certainly didn't stop me selling my e36 M3 very quickly for a price above what others were selling for. Why? Because the car was clearly looked after and in excellent condition.

[HarryH]

ukwill said:

belleair302 said:

I I can easily phone to confirm what work has been carried out - and have done exactly that on most of my purchases.

how did you manage to do that?, BMW Dealers shouldn't be giving out any info for what work that has been carried out on a car that you don't own.
All they should give is confirmation that the service you are enquiring about has been done at their garage, at best they will confirm the miles, and thats as long as you have the details at hand
Unless of course, you have a friendly service engineer on the phone

[ukwill]

HarryH said:

ukwill said:

I I can easily phone to confirm what work has been carried out - and have done exactly that on most of my purchases.

how did you manage to do that?, BMW Dealers shouldn't be giving out any info for what work that has been carried out on a car that you don't own.
All they should give is confirmation that the service you are enquiring about has been done at their garage, at best they will confirm the miles, and thats as long as you have the details at hand
Unless of course, you have a friendly service engineer on the phone

I had no issues. I simply phoned the £1 per minute BMW line and confirmed the stamps & mileage at each stamp, then went to each dealer stating that I had been onto the BMW history check line and that they had said to go to the specific dealer if I wanted to know any more (which is what they actually said). All good.

Edited by ukwill on Tuesday 23 February 19:41

[gilford]

Paul_M3 said:

If it didn't make any difference when it was 4 years old, why would it when it was 8 years old?

It all comes down to money, and at the end of the day an E46 M3 isn't megga bucks so some people will not mind the history

Paul_M3 said:

If a car was exactly what you were looking for, would you really be put off by the fact BMW hadn't done all the servicing? You'd honestly wait and hope that an identical car with a FBMWSH came up at the same price?

Again, if it were an E90 M3 then yes, as it is impossible to warrant a car through BMW without full dealer history

Paul_M3 said:

For every person who is put off, there will be 10 who aren't.

I think you will find that this should be the other way around


Yes, you may sell a car like this on condition alone to a person who is quite mechanically minded, but 8/10 cats aren't which is why the dealer stamp is so important. I totally agree that there are a lot of cowboy dealers out there, but with full dealer history a lot of stuff can be done...........

When I was 22 I had an E36 M3 Evo, it had done 40k miles and the Vanos went, no warranty but full BMW history. After a chat with the dealer it was all foxed FOC by dealer good will as the car had very little mileage and had the full history. If the car had been serviced elsewhere do you think it would have been the same outcome?

[HarryH]

Have you actually got any information out of BMW to what work was carried out i.e new vanos/ new brakes etc?
Because if you did, that's unusual, when I have tried, they will confirm the service history/miles etc, but only confirm what you tell them
I have asked about what work has been carried out during the service and all i was told was that they are not allowed to pass that info over
They are not allowed to tell you in detail as part of the data protection act i was led to believe.
If i was a owner of a car and trying to sell it, i wouldn't be to happy with BMW giving out details on what work has been done as i am the registered owner.
Put it this way, if i was selling my car, and some guy came to view it and starting saying BMW have told him its had a new bottom end or something, i'd be straight on the phone to the dealer asking them what's going on
Miles check and service records check yes, but anything other than that, i wouldnt be happy.

[ukwill]

HarryH said:

Have you actually got any information out of BMW to what work was carried out i.e new vanos/ new brakes etc?
Because if you did, that's unusual, when I have tried, they will confirm the service history/miles etc, but only confirm what you tell them
I have asked about what work has been carried out during the service and all i was told was that they are not allowed to pass that info over
They are not allowed to tell you in detail as part of the data protection act i was led to believe.
If i was a owner of a car and trying to sell it, i wouldn't be to happy with BMW giving out details on what work has been done as i am the registered owner.
Put it this way, if i was selling my car, and some guy came to view it and starting saying BMW have told him its had a new bottom end or something, i'd be straight on the phone to the dealer asking them what's going on
Miles check and service records check yes, but anything other than that, i wouldnt be happy.

My experience differs to yours then

[skeeterm5]

To be honest I think that FBMWSH is better for value come resale but a real quality inde will most likely do a better actual job of looking after the car.

S

[ukwill]

gilford said:

On a 8 year old E46 M3 with 80k miles an Indy history would not bother me (it would have to be a good one, not Halfords!) but on a 4 year old M5 it would be essential for me

I think you speak for the vast majority.

[falkster]

This has been discussed in the Porsche forum not too long ago.

IMO (unless your car is brand new and require main dealer for warranty) I personally think that when buying a car I would prefer an Indy stamp over a dealer stamp from my experience of main dealers.

I took my E30 M3 to my local main dealer and the guy didnt even know what it was so how could he be trusted to look after it correctly. It goes to Metcalf Motorsport who knows the car/engine inside out, what are concerns with the car, what to look for and I trust him.....plus he charges a fraction of a dealer.

My Boxster goes to Porscheuro and as John is ex Porsche I feel that John is the best man to look after my Boxster....plus he charges a fraction. He completes jobs that he feels need to be completed but doesnt charge the earth. Last week I had my car picked up from my wife's place of work, serviced MOT'd and replaced a couple of CV boots all for the great price of £250!!! The CV boots would have been nearly £200 at a dealer!!

As long as you have a stack of invoices to back up the stamps in the book I'd take Indy.....a stamp could mean oil change whereas an invoice is detail!!

[HarryW]

gilford said:

.............

Paul_M3 said:

For every person who is put off, there will be 10 who aren't.

I think you will find that this should be the other way around


Yes, you may sell a car like this on condition alone to a person who is quite mechanically minded, but 8/10 cats aren't which is why the dealer stamp is so important. I totally agree that there are a lot of cowboy dealers out there, but with full dealer history a lot of stuff can be done...........

When I was 22 I had an E36 M3 Evo, it had done 40k miles and the Vanos went, no warranty but full BMW history. After a chat with the dealer it was all foxed FOC by dealer good will as the car had very little mileage and had the full history. If the car had been serviced elsewhere do you think it would have been the same outcome?

Some very important points there which I agree with.
Do not discount or underestimate the 'good will' available when rolling up at a main dealer with under 100k on the clock and a full main dealer history when something major happens.

Edited by HarryW on Tuesday 23 February 21:33

[Paul_M3]

gilford said:

Again, if it were an E90 M3 then yes, as it is impossible to warrant a car through BMW without full dealer history

I agree, but I was talking about an e46 M3 that will be around 8 years old when sold so it's not really the same situation.
If you're talking about a car 3 years old where someone wants to maintain warranty, then of course a FBMWSH is a big issue.

gilford said:

I think you will find that this should be the other way around

It's impossible to say either way really. But I just can't see many people instantly dismissing a car which doesn't have a FBMWSH. If everything else was what they were looking for, would they really think 'That looks perfect, exactly the spec I want...oh.....but it doesn't have a full dealer history. I won't even go look at it'? I think those types of people would probably be buying from a BMW dealer anyway, not privately.

I think it also depends on where you aim your advertising when selling. Autotrader for example would probably have a higher percentage of people who may value a FBMWSH. Advertise on a forum like Pistonheads or an M3 specific forum, and they would be much more likely to be knowledgeable and choose the car based on condition and actual history rather than just BMW stamps.

gilford said:

When I was 22 I had an E36 M3 Evo, it had done 40k miles and the Vanos went, no warranty but full BMW history. After a chat with the dealer it was all foxed FOC by dealer good will as the car had very little mileage and had the full history. If the car had been serviced elsewhere do you think it would have been the same outcome?

Yeah, I've heard of that happening with regards to VANOS issues. It was a bit of a unique situation, and BMW knew they had a common mode failure situation. It was reputation damage limitation.

I wouldn't expect the same thing to happen on an e46 M3 that was 8 years old if something major went wrong, would you?

[mikey-r]

I honestly don't think full dealer history is so important once the car is out of the standard warranty.

When I bought the 330d it still had 8k till the next service and had done 10k since the last. I booked it into a respected Indy for an oil service in the interim as I think 18k between oil changes is way too much. After a lengthy chat with them (and a bit of research) I also has the swirl flaps removed. The overall service, knowledge, enthusiasm and honesty was so refreshing. Much better than my experience with the local dealer. They now do all the work on the M5 also.


That said, and I think someone's already mentioned - I'd need stamps of a respected Indy in the book at proper intervals. I turned down a very low mileage M5 (40k on a 2000) because the guy had no history whatsoever. He was a true petrol head and did most of the work himself. I'm pretty sure the car was fine (certainly it went well ) but I didn't have big enough balls to take the punt as I knew I'd have next to no chance if I ever wanted to sell it.

Both my current BMW's were bought with full dealer history but they will both now be serviced by the Indy. I really can't see it effecting the value of either. If someone is so determined to have FBMWSH chances are they'd only buy from a dealer in the first place? Surely, someone after an older 'M' would see the value of regular quality maintenance irrespective of whether it was conducted by a main dealer or a specialist?