147 not starting
Discussion
Firstly - let me prefix this by stating that I am a mechanical numpty!
Yesterday was out in the Mrs 147, and stopped to fill up with petrol. Tried to start the car, and it was dead. It appeared to be no electrics. Fortunately I had jump leads in the back, and someone gave me a jump. Car through up a few spurious messages on the dash ECD Failure, ABS failure, 0 miles to service etc. Car limped out of petrol station, pretty lumpy, and then went on its way as normal.
I had to stop somewhere on the way home, approx 5 miles from petrol station. Went to start it again, and same thing. Got another jump start.
Drove car home, stopped on drive and it was dead again. So took a look at battery, and fuse box (don't know why I looked there really!), and noticed the green "healthy" light was showing on battery. Decided to charge it overnight, after removing the battery. (I have never seen such an awkward contraption of a battery, and the way it is fixed in!).
Plugged battery back in, and still same issue. I can hear two clicks when I start the car, but that is all that happens. The dash is still giving some strange messages, and is "faded".
I jumped the car again, and starts straight away, and the messages go away. Try to restart and is dead.
So this is my thoughts:-
1) The battery needs replacing
2) Starter motor is not getting enough power from the battery - battery to be replaced, or starter motor needs replacing.
3) Some sort of ECU problem
What is most likely from these? Or another suggestion?
The irony is the car is due to go up for sale in the next couple of weeks, so I want to get it fixed, but with the least cost, and least trial and error replacement of parts.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
Yesterday was out in the Mrs 147, and stopped to fill up with petrol. Tried to start the car, and it was dead. It appeared to be no electrics. Fortunately I had jump leads in the back, and someone gave me a jump. Car through up a few spurious messages on the dash ECD Failure, ABS failure, 0 miles to service etc. Car limped out of petrol station, pretty lumpy, and then went on its way as normal.
I had to stop somewhere on the way home, approx 5 miles from petrol station. Went to start it again, and same thing. Got another jump start.
Drove car home, stopped on drive and it was dead again. So took a look at battery, and fuse box (don't know why I looked there really!), and noticed the green "healthy" light was showing on battery. Decided to charge it overnight, after removing the battery. (I have never seen such an awkward contraption of a battery, and the way it is fixed in!).
Plugged battery back in, and still same issue. I can hear two clicks when I start the car, but that is all that happens. The dash is still giving some strange messages, and is "faded".
I jumped the car again, and starts straight away, and the messages go away. Try to restart and is dead.
So this is my thoughts:-
1) The battery needs replacing
2) Starter motor is not getting enough power from the battery - battery to be replaced, or starter motor needs replacing.
3) Some sort of ECU problem
What is most likely from these? Or another suggestion?
The irony is the car is due to go up for sale in the next couple of weeks, so I want to get it fixed, but with the least cost, and least trial and error replacement of parts.
Thanks in advance for any suggestions!
I don't have a multimeter - and to be honest do not really understand the whole amp/watt/voltage of electrics anyway! I would not know what I was looking for on the reading.
Normally I would just swap the batteries over with another car, but the Alfa battery is a bit weird with the way the "terminals" are presented. i.e. the cars terminals loop over the terminals, rather than screwing in like a normal battery. Also my Mercedes battery is huge - I am not sure if they are different for a big diesel than they are for the Alfa.
Normally I would just swap the batteries over with another car, but the Alfa battery is a bit weird with the way the "terminals" are presented. i.e. the cars terminals loop over the terminals, rather than screwing in like a normal battery. Also my Mercedes battery is huge - I am not sure if they are different for a big diesel than they are for the Alfa.
Swapping the battery on a 147 is no hassle. You just need to unscrew the connector block around the positive terminal - I think it's two cross head screws. Your new battery will have holes for these to screw back into. I went for a heavy duty Bosch on ours. It just fits! Remember to take the earth cable off first. When the battery is out check the cables and clamps are all sound and OK. It sounds like you may have a dodgy earth.
If it was a short trip to the petrol station, it may be your battery wasn't sufficiently charged to cope with the restart, & the subsequent jump start, then stop & jump again have killed it. The electrical mucking about sounds like insufficent battery life to me. I don't have a great deal of faith in the "green dots": I've known dead ones stay green & good ones not show green at all. I'd swap the battery for a good new one & see what happens.
Multimeter purchased at lunchtime today.
Have read the instructions - I think I am looking to see if I have 9.6 Volts showing or not.
Taking the battery out is not a problem. Nor is putting it back in. The problem is ensuring I get the correct battery (if needed) that has the screws in the top to screw the big thing back in.
Have read the instructions - I think I am looking to see if I have 9.6 Volts showing or not.
Taking the battery out is not a problem. Nor is putting it back in. The problem is ensuring I get the correct battery (if needed) that has the screws in the top to screw the big thing back in.
Fats25 said:
The problem is ensuring I get the correct battery (if needed) that has the screws in the top to screw the big thing back in.
As mentioned above I simply ordered the heavy duty Bosch battery for the 147 and it was fine.Those screw in thingys are commonly used. It's not an Alfa specific item.
Ok - more information. I find these results strange. Perhaps (hopefully) - this does point to just a battery issue, but something seems strange to me!
I got home and got the Multimeter on a 12V Bike battery that I had left charging yesterday, so tested here first. Result = 12.5V reading.
Put it on the Merc battery and it measured 12V - a bit low - but all seemed fine. I started Merc and it read 14.5 - according to other info I read on the interweb this shows that the alternator is running ok as well.
Put it on the Alfa battery and it read 8.0, then 8.5, then 9, then 9.5 before finally settling at 10.0. It never went above 10! Jumped the car from the Merc and it started first time, no issues. Unplugged jump leads. Checked the reading and it was around 13. Decided to try and load the battery, and as soon as I turned the lights on the Alfa died. So I decided at this point it sounded like a new battery was needed.
Unplugged battery so I could get a good look at it, and decided to have one more go of the Multimeter (I love new toys even if I don't understand them!). It read 12.5V when the battery was unplugged. i.e. as it should. So why would the battery be reading lower when plugged in car, than it would when it was unplugged? This is the bit that does not ring true to me.
I got home and got the Multimeter on a 12V Bike battery that I had left charging yesterday, so tested here first. Result = 12.5V reading.
Put it on the Merc battery and it measured 12V - a bit low - but all seemed fine. I started Merc and it read 14.5 - according to other info I read on the interweb this shows that the alternator is running ok as well.
Put it on the Alfa battery and it read 8.0, then 8.5, then 9, then 9.5 before finally settling at 10.0. It never went above 10! Jumped the car from the Merc and it started first time, no issues. Unplugged jump leads. Checked the reading and it was around 13. Decided to try and load the battery, and as soon as I turned the lights on the Alfa died. So I decided at this point it sounded like a new battery was needed.
Unplugged battery so I could get a good look at it, and decided to have one more go of the Multimeter (I love new toys even if I don't understand them!). It read 12.5V when the battery was unplugged. i.e. as it should. So why would the battery be reading lower when plugged in car, than it would when it was unplugged? This is the bit that does not ring true to me.
Fats25 said:
So why would the battery be reading lower when plugged in car, than it would when it was unplugged? This is the bit that does not ring true to me.
When it's in the car there is always a load going through it - clock, radio, interior lights, alarm and so on. You can never get a complete zero drain on a modern car. However if it's more than you think check things like the boot light and glovebox light are going out when they should.RicksAlfas said:
Fats25 said:
So why would the battery be reading lower when plugged in car, than it would when it was unplugged? This is the bit that does not ring true to me.
When it's in the car there is always a load going through it - clock, radio, interior lights, alarm and so on. You can never get a complete zero drain on a modern car. However if it's more than you think check things like the boot light and glovebox light are going out when they should.So Rick - where did you get this battery from? I have taken a look and have not found one place so far on-line that sells the battery (in the dimensions required) for the Alfa? Alfa themselves have one for £99 - which I think is a bit steep.
Edited by Fats25 on Monday 8th March 20:27
I forgot to look.
Sorry!
I just got mine from the local garage who looks after me, but any motor factor would be able to help.
You can also look online. e.g.
http://www.tayna.co.uk/fitments/3/Car-Fitment-Guid...
Sorry!
I just got mine from the local garage who looks after me, but any motor factor would be able to help.
You can also look online. e.g.
http://www.tayna.co.uk/fitments/3/Car-Fitment-Guid...
I decided to speak to my (not so) local Alfa Independent guy today who we have used in the past, and from the symptoms he does not believe it is the battery. Says there is no way that if I am getting over 12.5 volts from free standing battery, it would read at 10 as soon as I plug into car.
Will drive down and see him tomorrow, and leave the car with them to check over, but he thinks it is more likely an electrical fault, and not something slowly draining the battery. He is going to test and let us know what it is. Apparently very common issue.
I will report back when I know more.
Will drive down and see him tomorrow, and leave the car with them to check over, but he thinks it is more likely an electrical fault, and not something slowly draining the battery. He is going to test and let us know what it is. Apparently very common issue.
I will report back when I know more.
There is no way a healthy battery should read 8v unless it is turning the starter motor at the time.
There may be other factors that have killed the battery, it could be that the battery is just old, but that battery will need replacing.
I get my car batteries from Halfords, reasonable price, local and they don't try and feed me tripe about how I need some heavy duty version (though for an occasional use car their "Lithium tech" batteries are worth the extra and you get a longer warranty too).
There may be other factors that have killed the battery, it could be that the battery is just old, but that battery will need replacing.
I get my car batteries from Halfords, reasonable price, local and they don't try and feed me tripe about how I need some heavy duty version (though for an occasional use car their "Lithium tech" batteries are worth the extra and you get a longer warranty too).
Fats25 said:
It read 12.5V when the battery was unplugged. i.e. as it should. So why would the battery be reading lower when plugged in car, than it would when it was unplugged? This is the bit that does not ring true to me.
How long after running the car did you do this? You need to wait half an hour or so after the battery has been charged (in this case the alternator will have put some charge into it) to see the true state of the battery.Full marks to everyone on this thread! It was the battery after all.
After a hairy 40 mile journey to my local independent Alfa garage, where it took three attempts to get off of the drive, and I had to bump start the car around every corner as the car died, it has now been fixed.
Just to confirm in case anyone else sees this - these were the symptoms:-
Anyway - not a wasted journed as the Alfa independent has also carried the service out, and they are very good.
After a hairy 40 mile journey to my local independent Alfa garage, where it took three attempts to get off of the drive, and I had to bump start the car around every corner as the car died, it has now been fixed.
Just to confirm in case anyone else sees this - these were the symptoms:-
- Car had been driven for 100 miles that day
- Stopped at Petrol Station and car would not start
- Car Jump Started and eventually taken home
- Battery taken out and charged
- Battery replaced still dead
- Multimeter put on battery in car and measuring between 8V and 10V
- Battery recharged overnight, and unplugged
- 12 hours later checked and battery was reading 12.8V on Mulitmeter - (looks good!)
- Plugged into car and battery read 10V immediately
Anyway - not a wasted journed as the Alfa independent has also carried the service out, and they are very good.
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