Insurance/legality/modding your car for safety
Discussion
I was just curious, I am in the process of making my 66 Mini go a touch faster. This involves doubling the HP. However I have more than doubled the brakes and fitted race quality suspension, etc. I am obviously going to "Tell the insurance company" but I was debating putting a roll cage and some decent seatbelts as I don't want to die as its a mini!
Legend has it that insurance companies don't like rollcages. In the same breath, don't they like decent seatbelts? I can't see how making your car more safe should entitle those pirates to take more of my money.
My car will be more roadworthy than it was. I can't see that it is fair getting stung for £££ by pirates. Is this true, am I going to be raped in the bank? My insurance company are pretty good. I'm on a classic car policy as well.
Thoughts, thanks stu
Legend has it that insurance companies don't like rollcages. In the same breath, don't they like decent seatbelts? I can't see how making your car more safe should entitle those pirates to take more of my money.
My car will be more roadworthy than it was. I can't see that it is fair getting stung for £££ by pirates. Is this true, am I going to be raped in the bank? My insurance company are pretty good. I'm on a classic car policy as well.
Thoughts, thanks stu
With regards to a roll cage it depends on the insurer. Some dont mind at all some think 'hmm, he must be driving like a nutter to need a roll cage'.
Given that your plan is to put two bike engines in a roof chopped Mini I would have thought that a roll cage and harnesses would be the very least of your problem...
Given that your plan is to put two bike engines in a roof chopped Mini I would have thought that a roll cage and harnesses would be the very least of your problem...
Plotloss said:
Given that your plan is to put two bike engines in a roof chopped Mini ..
Will it be roof chopped, kneegrow? I was hoping it would be properly chopped like proper minisprints. They had a moderate roofchop but also a few inches chopped out below the waistline. The only problem was that this lowered the headlights, making them illegal. Small square lights in the top of the wing cured this.
CB-Dave said:
rollcages on the road aren't exactly safe - think bout it, if you hit something and your lateral g's are high, you have (comparitively speaking) soft squishy head, and cold hard tubular steel... your head will deform long before the steel!
By the same logic, roll cages are even less safe for racing drivers then...
I think insurancecompanies just take the simplistic view that they pay out more money in claims related to modified cars - so they load the premium for modified cars.
Also, whilst all this seems like a good idea, without doing some crash testing, you might find that you've actually made some secondary safety aspects worse. Before modifying the car (OK, a '66 mini won't have had to comply with much at the time but this is a more general point) it would have had the necessary proof that its seat belt anchorages were strong enough to comply with the relevant standard. I wish I had a quid for everyone I've heard saying "well it's a lot stronger now - it's obvious" immediately before their car has failed a seat belt anchorage test!
Also, whilst all this seems like a good idea, without doing some crash testing, you might find that you've actually made some secondary safety aspects worse. Before modifying the car (OK, a '66 mini won't have had to comply with much at the time but this is a more general point) it would have had the necessary proof that its seat belt anchorages were strong enough to comply with the relevant standard. I wish I had a quid for everyone I've heard saying "well it's a lot stronger now - it's obvious" immediately before their car has failed a seat belt anchorage test!
Avocet said:
I think insurancecompanies just take the simplistic view that they pay out more money in claims related to modified cars - so they load the premium for modified cars.
I'd place a little bet they don't pay out more claims for modified cars.
I'ts an absolute dead cert they treat modified cars as a great cash-grab opportunity.................
If you put a cage a in your car you must/should wear harnesses.
In an accident your less likely to get banged on the head wearing a harness in a caged car. And cage sponge covering should always be fitted.
You are also not supposed to wear a harness without a cage as if you roll your body can't move out of the way when the roof comes in, which it will do!. But this depends on your driving as a roll on the road is fairly rare compared to a trackday say.
In an accident your less likely to get banged on the head wearing a harness in a caged car. And cage sponge covering should always be fitted.
You are also not supposed to wear a harness without a cage as if you roll your body can't move out of the way when the roof comes in, which it will do!. But this depends on your driving as a roll on the road is fairly rare compared to a trackday say.
Points so far.
I see Footman James point threatening to not load my premium......How many classic minis were trashed on their policies last year. Even V8 ones? Perhaps very very few......(none?)
The car I am talking about has only a few mods, namely suspension/engine/brakes/wheels. As I have great suspension, I would like to stiffen the shell up with a cage and have added protection. I don't intend to drive with any more vigour than before I fitted the stuff....? Hmmmmm, liar!
The Sprint is the other one and will be a roof chop, above the roof chop, body chop, leading to about 7" out of the bodywork. Same sized windscreen, 2 engines (A series). Should be interesting to insure. Not interested in that yet......
stu
I see Footman James point threatening to not load my premium......How many classic minis were trashed on their policies last year. Even V8 ones? Perhaps very very few......(none?)
The car I am talking about has only a few mods, namely suspension/engine/brakes/wheels. As I have great suspension, I would like to stiffen the shell up with a cage and have added protection. I don't intend to drive with any more vigour than before I fitted the stuff....? Hmmmmm, liar!
The Sprint is the other one and will be a roof chop, above the roof chop, body chop, leading to about 7" out of the bodywork. Same sized windscreen, 2 engines (A series). Should be interesting to insure. Not interested in that yet......
stu
kneegrow said:
I see Footman James point threatening to not load my premium......How many classic minis were trashed on their policies last year. Even V8 ones? Perhaps very very few......(none?)
But you probably get lumped in with all the other modified cars with cages, not just minis, and perhaps their claim value/claim frequency/etc is higher? My cage stays in the garage, mainly cos I need the rear seats for the time being.
if you really must have a roll cage on a road car you MUST use proper race seats and harness's (preferably 5 point harness and helmet too) otherwise you will probably smash your head to pulp if you crash. also get proper advice on fitting harnesses, i've lost count of the number i've seen that would cause horrible injuries in minor crashes (they should be fitted to something very solid directly behind your shoulders NOT sloping down to the rear seats like max power brigade)
and yes insurance companies HATE cages and payouts on modified cars are usually way under their real value (unless you get specific "agreed value" policy)
francis
and yes insurance companies HATE cages and payouts on modified cars are usually way under their real value (unless you get specific "agreed value" policy)
francis
I would say that just as dodgy in a side impact is the danger from the standard door pillar mounted seat belt anchor point. I don't know how most manufacturers get away with them.
And its no problem to put a bit of padding around the cage. Also, most people when they fit a cage fit proper seats at the same time. Just lower the seat and move it to a more central location which will give your head more clearance.
And its no problem to put a bit of padding around the cage. Also, most people when they fit a cage fit proper seats at the same time. Just lower the seat and move it to a more central location which will give your head more clearance.
kneegrow said:
Points so far.
I see Footman James point threatening to not load my premium......How many classic minis were trashed on their policies last year. Even V8 ones? Perhaps very very few......(none?)
How many classic Minis on their policies have been butche...I mean modded in the manner you describe?
kneegrow said:
The car I am talking about has only a few mods, namely suspension/engine/brakes/wheels.
A FEW mods? What's left? My old man had the same hammer for 19 years...it only had 6 new heads and 4 new handles...
kneegrow said:
As I have great suspension, I would like to stiffen the shell up with a cage and have added protection. I don't intend to drive with any more vigour than before I fitted the stuff....? Hmmmmm, liar!
The Sprint is the other one and will be a roof chop, above the roof chop, body chop, leading to about 7" out of the bodywork. Same sized windscreen, 2 engines (A series). Should be interesting to insure. Not interested in that yet......
stu
Steel rollcage plus your unprotected crust plus medium-high speed impact = claret and grey squishy stuff everywhere. If you must fit one, fit five-point harnesses as well, wear a brain bucket and for Chrissakes make sure the anchorages are up to scratch cos otherwise the last thing through your mind if you have an off will be the other end of the harness that was supposed to save your bacon. As to insuring it, someone will, but be prepared either to pay more than the car's worth or have a sh!te time in the event of a claim - possibly both.
kneegrow said:
Legend has it that insurance companies don't like rollcages. In the same breath, don't they like decent seatbelts? I can't see how making your car more safe should entitle those pirates to take more of my money.
Thoughts, thanks stu
I don't think insurance companies give a toss about how safe you make the car for your own life because they're not insuring your life, it's the car they're insuring.
Have you tried asking your insurance company for clarrification ? It all comes down to RISK, and their perception of risk, and with statistics is comes down to correlation and causation.
For instance there is a direct correlation in western australia between ICE cream sales and shark bites. So in order to reduce the number of shark bites we must ban ice cream ? Or perhaps it was the outside temperature that was the cause ?
In your case you need to be able to convince them that risk is no higher -i.e. risk of it being stolen because :
a) It's garaged,
b) You only use it sundays
c) It's got 3 alarms and 4 immobilisors.
and the risk of you crashing and causing Piccasso woman to claim for her completely False injuries are no higher because :
a) You are OLD
b) You have a good record
c) It's only for mainly for show
d) You have a photographic build file which proves you are an anorak
e) You don't like ice cream.
Have you asked about track day cover ?
For instance there is a direct correlation in western australia between ICE cream sales and shark bites. So in order to reduce the number of shark bites we must ban ice cream ? Or perhaps it was the outside temperature that was the cause ?
In your case you need to be able to convince them that risk is no higher -i.e. risk of it being stolen because :
a) It's garaged,
b) You only use it sundays
c) It's got 3 alarms and 4 immobilisors.
and the risk of you crashing and causing Piccasso woman to claim for her completely False injuries are no higher because :
a) You are OLD
b) You have a good record
c) It's only for mainly for show
d) You have a photographic build file which proves you are an anorak
e) You don't like ice cream.
Have you asked about track day cover ?
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