looking for track day settings

[V8Dom]

hi looking for camber, caster etc etc etc setting for trackdays but cant seem to find it in the past posts. anyone got them at hand?

thanks Dom

[JoulesCanAm]

This is where the factory recommended I start (Based upon their Top Gear record setting runs)

Ride height 110mm front, 160mm rear

Front negative camber increase from 1.5 to 2.0 degrees

Rear negative camber increase from 0.5 to 1.2 degrees.

Rear toe increase from 1mm to 2mm overall

Tyre pressures front 16psi rear 21psi hot (Tyres were the Kumho Ecsta V70A medium compound)

Dampers all set at 40 clicks (Intrax)

Track springs 25% stiffer

All I played around with after that was the rear wing angle.

Good luck,
Julian

[V8Dom]

JoulesCanAm said:

This is where the factory recommended I start (Based upon their Top Gear record setting runs)

Ride height 110mm front, 160mm rear

Front negative camber increase from 1.5 to 2.0 degrees

Rear negative camber increase from 0.5 to 1.2 degrees.

Rear toe increase from 1mm to 2mm overall

Tyre pressures front 16psi rear 21psi hot (Tyres were the Kumho Ecsta V70A medium compound)

Dampers all set at 40 clicks (Intrax)

Track springs 25% stiffer

All I played around with after that was the rear wing angle.

Good luck,
Julian

thanks Julian and do you know the orginal settings... like toe in etc etc??

[pilbeam_mp62]

Dom,

If it helps, I can tell you how Jeff at the factory set up my car last October, for the road :-

FRONT
Toe in 1.5mm
Camber -1.4 degrees
Ride Height 110mm
Spring Rate 180/80
Damper 5 clicks
Tyre Pressure 16.5


REAR
Toe in 1mm
Camber -0.3 degrees
Ride Height 160mm
Spring Rate 180/110
Damper 5 clicks
Tyre Pressure 20

(Tyres are Goodyear)

Regards

[grasser]

toe in in front doesnt work on the track you need a toe out of min 1,5 mm per side, in total 3 mm!!

the reason why:
when you setup a toe in and you break very hard the toe opens nearly to 0 mm, then the car gets unstable at breaking.
A good toe out makes a stable handling and also warm the tires on the straigt.....but on the road a pure tire killer ;-)

so basic setup for trackday:
front: toe out total 3 mm
chamber: about 2,5 deg. min
and castor avoids the turn in understeer. we made special to wishbones for more castor. purely fantastic to turn in with them
rear:
toe in about 4 mmm in total.
Chamber about 1,5 deg.

ultima nees much toe,...incase of the soft uprights.....
hope this helps a little!

[V8Dom]

Thankyou guys some great settings there..

I think im going to run the record car setup for the road and try a couple of Grassers settings during the year..

Dom

[V8Dom]

pilbeam_mp62 said:

Dom,

If it helps, I can tell you how Jeff at the factory set up my car last October, for the road :-

FRONT
Toe in 1.5mm
Camber -1.4 degrees
Ride Height 110mm
Spring Rate 180/80
Damper 5 clicks
Tyre Pressure 16.5


REAR
Toe in 1mm
Camber -0.3 degrees
Ride Height 160mm
Spring Rate 180/110
Damper 5 clicks
Tyre Pressure 20

(Tyres are Goodyear)

Regards

interesting you have dampers at 5 clicks..

Im running 16 front and 25 year on the road

Dom

[GTR-TT]

I agree with Grasser on this one. You need front toe out and lot of toe in at the rear to balance the car on the track. It made a huge difference when I went with 2mm toe out at the front and 4 in back.I use a little less camber at the rear compared to Grasser but otherwise very similar settings. Then I added anti sway bars...

Toe out may sound extreme but you asked for track day settings and toe in (front) will not give you a good track day setup. IMHO.

Edited by GTR-TT on Monday 15th March 13:07

[V8Dom]

GTR-TT said:

I agree with Grasser on this one. You need front toe out and lot of toe in at the rear to balance the car on the track. It made a huge difference when I went with 2mm toe out at the front and 4 in back.I use a little less camber at the rear compared to Grasser but otherwise very similar settings. Then I added anti sway bars...

Toe out may sound extreme but you asked for track day settings and toe in (front) will not give you a good track day setup. IMHO.

Edited by GTR-TT on Monday 15th March 13:07

Im booking it in to get the whole car checked. I mainly run on the road so need a setting up thats a compromise, thats why the record car setup was my first port of call.

I do have anti-roll bars for the front and back which i don't use on the road but wanted to know the track setup to see the differences as i'd like to play arround but oviously its nice to go the correct way and see the differences...

Thanks Guys as usual very helpfull

Dom

Edited by V8Dom on Monday 15th March 22:53

[ezakimak]

GTR-TT said:

I agree with Grasser on this one. You need front toe out and lot of toe in at the rear to balance the car on the track. It made a huge difference when I went with 2mm toe out at the front and 4 in back.I use a little less camber at the rear compared to Grasser but otherwise very similar settings. Then I added anti sway bars...

Toe out may sound extreme but you asked for track day settings and toe in (front) will not give you a good track day setup. IMHO.

Edited by GTR-TT on Monday 15th March 13:07

Has anyone tried a more aggressive Ackerman setting to get the inside tyre working more ?

To me it sounds like the toe out is being used to compensate for insufficient Ackerman at track speeds, or is it for stability?.

Ryan

[grasser]

ezakimak said:

GTR-TT said:

I agree with Grasser on this one. You need front toe out and lot of toe in at the rear to balance the car on the track. It made a huge difference when I went with 2mm toe out at the front and 4 in back.I use a little less camber at the rear compared to Grasser but otherwise very similar settings. Then I added anti sway bars...

Toe out may sound extreme but you asked for track day settings and toe in (front) will not give you a good track day setup. IMHO.

Edited by GTR-TT on Monday 15th March 13:07

Has anyone tried a more aggressive Ackerman setting to get the inside tyre working more ?

To me it sounds like the toe out is being used to compensate for insufficient Ackerman at track speeds, or is it for stability?.

Ryan

yep dont work very different,....only castor helps!

[ezakimak]

Ive been working with some mates over the last couple of weeks to design and build a small M/C engine hill climb car, Am working on the Suspension design at the moment. We are planning to run Formula Ford wheels and tyres on the car as they are redial available in Melbourne.

So last night I went out to the shed to confirm some of the measurements that i have previously checked via the web, for instance the rear AVON ACB10, are advertised as having a diameter of ~556mm at 20 psi. I jumped up and down on it at this pressure and it felt rock hard. Projected weight of the car is ~350kg so my weight on one wheel will hopefully be not too far off the corner weight.
To get something that felt reasonable i had to drop the pressure down to 10 – 15psi.

At these pressures i got a 20% decrease in the diameter of the rear tyre (note that it is a second hand used tyre for set up purpose).
I was shocked. If I had designed for 50mm of ground clearance at that pressure I would be scraping the underside of the car all over the place. Even more so once aero comes on.

Id be guessing that the Ultima would be more sensitive to pressure settings and ride height settings than led to believe. For instance, dropping the pressure even 1 – 2 psi may result in the ride height dropping considerably, possibly even bringing into effect the under body aero forces even more.

Given the camber gain with the short top wishbone, if the ride height is not set with the correct tyre pressures, the camber gain will also be out in bump and roll.

Just something to consider.

Ryan

[GTR-TT]

ezakimak said:

...Ultima would be more sensitive to pressure settings and ride height settings than led to believe. For instance, dropping the pressure even 1 – 2 psi may result in the ride height dropping considerably, possibly even bringing into effect the under body aero forces even more.

Given the camber gain with the short top wishbone, if the ride height is not set with the correct tyre pressures, the camber gain will also be out in bump and roll.

Just something to consider.

Ryan

I have no scientific proof for that what I say now is true... But My beliefe is that all tires that are available in the dimensions the ultima uses, especially the rears, are designed for much heavier cars. The sidewalls are very rigid and stiff to handle higher loads and therefor doesn't compress so much. I have seen very little change in ride hight on my car with differens tire pressure. To get the tires to start work and warm up we need to use very low pressure. However it's very hard to predict how the tires will flex when under load in a high speed compresseion ie but I haven't seen any marks after bottoming out the chassi. When I measure my angles I do it with the correct (low) tire pressure in the wheels.

[martinlaw]

I did 8 laps at Oulton Park a couple of years ago with very little pressure in one of my front tyres, the car still handled very well even turn in.

took the tyre off and the inside wall was destroyed so obviously the side walls although strong still need a little internal pressure!!

On track days i start off with around 30% less pressure in the tyres than normal.

[V8Dom]

grasser said:

toe in in front doesnt work on the track you need a toe out of min 1,5 mm per side, in total 3 mm!!

the reason why:
when you setup a toe in and you break very hard the toe opens nearly to 0 mm, then the car gets unstable at breaking.
A good toe out makes a stable handling and also warm the tires on the straigt.....but on the road a pure tire killer ;-)

so basic setup for trackday:
front: toe out total 3 mm
chamber: about 2,5 deg. min
and castor avoids the turn in understeer. we made special to wishbones for more castor. purely fantastic to turn in with them
rear:
toe in about 4 mmm in total.
Chamber about 1,5 deg.

ultima nees much toe,...incase of the soft uprights.....
hope this helps a little!

ive just spent the weekend doing a few bits to the car including the bump steer.. Ive lowered the rack and now have zero toe in when the suspension compresses for bumps and breaking.Well for 50% of travel


So my question now is whats the best road and track tracking settings to use?? toe in was decided for the road in this post due to it toeing out to zero under breaking?? so now i have minimal bump steer, under breaking it wont alter the geometry so do i now run it parrellel?

What do you hangling experts all think?? Road and track?

Dom

Edited by V8Dom on Monday 5th September 01:00

[gav dunn]

hi dom, looking forward to seeing the car, and meeting you out on track.

[V8Dom]

Hi Gav

track will be next year, not as nible as your track weapon!!

As you know running engine in first and then paying for it all is the first hurdle!

Decided after speaking to Charles to set 1/2 mm toe in as a starter.. there wont be as much toe out on braking and it wont scrub the tyres like the record car!!



Dom

Edited by V8Dom on Tuesday 6th September 00:21

[Gulf LS3]

it would be nice to see an Ultima up against Gav's track weapon? I suppose Martins car would give it a run!