Proper use of vision on track
Discussion
Reading Ben Elliotts explanation on Racelogics thread has been a bit of a revalation to me. Whilst I don't drive off of the track (!) it is obvious now that my pace is clearly restricted by not using the Limit Point vision. I am also guessing it's why it takes me a long time to learn a new circuit.
Is there any recommended reading on this?
Is there any recommended reading on this?
Perhaps you could summarise in a couple of sentences what you have read, or provide a link to the "Racelogics" thread, or copy it here, so that we have something to go on.
How you use your eyes on a circuit is an interesting subject. There is no single practice that can be applied uniformly to all circumstances. I myself have read probably 20 books, plus 'net stuff, that have covered it, and none on its own seemed comprehensive.
If you show us what you've seen, that would be a good starting point.
(I presume you are thinking of how to make the best use of your vision on a track-day or in a race, not of how to learn a circuit that is new to you.)
How you use your eyes on a circuit is an interesting subject. There is no single practice that can be applied uniformly to all circumstances. I myself have read probably 20 books, plus 'net stuff, that have covered it, and none on its own seemed comprehensive.
If you show us what you've seen, that would be a good starting point.
(I presume you are thinking of how to make the best use of your vision on a track-day or in a race, not of how to learn a circuit that is new to you.)
It was Bens comments on this thread that interested me
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I need to learn more
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
I need to learn more
Rusti,
I have had a number of phone calls regarding that thread!
Can I suggest that if you have trouble learning circuits that you may be looking at the turn in cones (or a selected turn in point) on approach to corners.
If you watch the racelogic crash video again watch davids head movement as he takes the hairpin. On approcah he is looking at the end of the worn patch of grass on the left of the circuit. He only turns his head just before turning the wheel into the corner.
You should be looking at the apex on approach. any turn in reference should only be looked at in your peripheral vision. This way you always know where you are going as you arrive at the corner. You also will find judging speed much easier and your driving will become instantly more consistent.
One thing to watch out for though is when you first work on this you'll find yourself moving over to the middle of the circuit on approach - you must keep the car positioned in your peripheral vision now and it takes a few laps to adjust
Why not come on an easytrack event and book a couple of sessions with me (the cheapest way). I've been running limit handling days for a couple of years now and you will soon see them become easytrack events. We use an airfield near Cambridge.
If a group of people want to get together for a track day and want to focus on this then I'd be happy to help.
Ben
I have had a number of phone calls regarding that thread!
Can I suggest that if you have trouble learning circuits that you may be looking at the turn in cones (or a selected turn in point) on approach to corners.
If you watch the racelogic crash video again watch davids head movement as he takes the hairpin. On approcah he is looking at the end of the worn patch of grass on the left of the circuit. He only turns his head just before turning the wheel into the corner.
You should be looking at the apex on approach. any turn in reference should only be looked at in your peripheral vision. This way you always know where you are going as you arrive at the corner. You also will find judging speed much easier and your driving will become instantly more consistent.
One thing to watch out for though is when you first work on this you'll find yourself moving over to the middle of the circuit on approach - you must keep the car positioned in your peripheral vision now and it takes a few laps to adjust
Why not come on an easytrack event and book a couple of sessions with me (the cheapest way). I've been running limit handling days for a couple of years now and you will soon see them become easytrack events. We use an airfield near Cambridge.
If a group of people want to get together for a track day and want to focus on this then I'd be happy to help.
Ben
The very first time I had instruction on track, Phil of Easytrack concentrated on teaching me how to look through the corners rather than at them. He pointed out to me the reference markers to look for e.g. a marshall's post, or a particular letter on a gantry. So my advice would be to get instructors like Ben and Phil to teach you 'track vision' with them sat beside on track.
dan101smith said:
flemke said:
I myself have read probably 20 books, plus 'net stuff, that have covered it, and none on its own seemed comprehensive.
Would you mind listing the best books you've read on the subject?http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Motorcycle-Roadr...
http://www.amazon.com/Twist-Wrist-Basics-High-Perf...
Some other things:
http://www.amazon.com/Competition-Driving-Alain-Pr...
http://www.amazon.com/Ayrton-Sennas-Principles-Rac...
http://www.amazon.com/Technique-Motor-Racing-Drivi...
http://www.motorbase.com/shop/profiles/by-id/1226/
http://www.amazon.com/Ross-Bentley/e/B001IGLXME/re...
http://www.amazon.com/Bob-Bondurant-High-Performan...
http://www.amazon.com/Sports-Competition-Driving-P...
http://www.amazon.com/Drive-Win-Essential-Guide-Dr...
http://www.amazon.com/Race-Win-Become-Complete-Cha...
http://www.amazon.com/Jackie-Stewarts-Principles-P...
http://www.amazon.com/Porsche-High-Performance-Dri...
http://www.amazon.com/racing-driver-practice-drivi...
http://www.amazon.com/Winning-Drivers-Handbook-Geo...
Of these, I'd say the Frere, Markus and Elford books are probably the most helpful in general.
If I had to boil it all down to a few things, which IMO are 90% of the principles about using your vision that matter, they would be:
- Your hands will always follow your eyes, regardless of whether you think they do. When overtaking, do NOT look at the other car, look at the space where you want to go. When heading into a bend, do NOT look at the car ahead, look at the circuit.
- It is critical that you look long, NOT to where you are heading at the moment. Wherever you are on the circuit, try to look as far ahead as you can. If that is two or three bends ahead, look at them, and as you approach them keep looking farther ahead. This extends even to the point of imagining when the road goes beyond what is in your field of vision.
- Whilst the above will govern most of your viewing, you should constantly be bringing to vision back to the near ground for very quick checks and recalibrations: kerb, apex, camber changes, surface changes, debris, etc. I'd say that it's 85% of the time looking long, 15% nearer checks.
- The one exception to looking to where you want to go, rather than where you are going at the moment, would be under higher-speed braking (which you will normally do only in a straight line). In these cases, for the first half-ish of the braking time, you want to look straight ahead. This will help to ensure that you get the more difficult part of the braking done without inadvertently moving the wheel slightly, which under hard braking will reduce your control and make a spin likely.
- A big issue in driving (on circuit on or the road) is keeping as much spare mental capacity as possible. That way you have the maximum ability to deal with new, unexpected information. As your experience grows, you will be able to take in everything before you in less time and with less effort, freeing up more mental space for other things (planning how you may want to position yourself several bends ahead in order to get past someone, noticing a bit of dirt or fluid on the circuit, seeing the car ahead twitch, indicating that it may be about to spin, etc.). This will develop naturally, but try to concentrate on improving your perceptiveness, forcing your mind to work at what you're seeing, rather than taking it in passively.
These are things on which we all need to improve, btw.
- The one exception to looking to where you want to go, rather than where you are going at the moment, would be under higher-speed braking (which you will normally do only in a straight line). In these cases, for the first half-ish of the braking time, you want to look straight ahead. This will help to ensure that you get the more difficult part of the braking done without inadvertently moving the wheel slightly, which under hard braking will reduce your control and make a spin likely.
flemke your advice is sound apart from the above part.
It it vital to be looking into the corner from well before the brakes are applied. positioning can be done using peripheral vision - takes a little practice but is fairly easy and most people I teach can fix this problem in a few laps.
You get very little judgement of speed from looking ahead as its just your eyes doing the judging.
time for another quick notepad drawing
so if you're looking ahead you're speed judgement is on a point in front of you. in this case you're eyes are the brains only input.
Look into the Limit point of vision and the brain now has input from eyes + angle of head relative to body. This angle constantly changes on approach so the brain has a variable to compute.
Using this method you will always know if you're going too fast / slow and have more time to sort it out. Using this method your driving will be more consistent and you are far less likely to go off as you will spot your mistakes earlier.
Hope this makes sense. This is very easy to explain in person but quite difficult on a keyboard - hence going for quick diagrams.
Ben
flemke your advice is sound apart from the above part.
It it vital to be looking into the corner from well before the brakes are applied. positioning can be done using peripheral vision - takes a little practice but is fairly easy and most people I teach can fix this problem in a few laps.
You get very little judgement of speed from looking ahead as its just your eyes doing the judging.
time for another quick notepad drawing
so if you're looking ahead you're speed judgement is on a point in front of you. in this case you're eyes are the brains only input.
Look into the Limit point of vision and the brain now has input from eyes + angle of head relative to body. This angle constantly changes on approach so the brain has a variable to compute.
Using this method you will always know if you're going too fast / slow and have more time to sort it out. Using this method your driving will be more consistent and you are far less likely to go off as you will spot your mistakes earlier.
Hope this makes sense. This is very easy to explain in person but quite difficult on a keyboard - hence going for quick diagrams.
Ben
BenElliottRacing said:
- The one exception to looking to where you want to go, rather than where you are going at the moment, would be under higher-speed braking (which you will normally do only in a straight line). In these cases, for the first half-ish of the braking time, you want to look straight ahead. This will help to ensure that you get the more difficult part of the braking done without inadvertently moving the wheel slightly, which under hard braking will reduce your control and make a spin likely.
flemke your advice is sound apart from the above part.
Perhaps we misunderstand each other, but on my basic point, it does not matter whether I believe it, but I can assure you that Rob Wilson does!flemke your advice is sound apart from the above part.
This would not be at the extreme of staring ahead so fixedly that you might as well be in a tunnel; as you say, you always need to have a sense of where you are.
Nonetheless, one of Rob's tenets, and something that my colleagues and I have found very effective, is to get the initial part of the slowing done in conjunction with looking ahead, in order to maintain rear stabiilty and also to help yourself cope with what he calls the "survival instinct" (which makes you want to brake much earlier than necessary).
The point that you make about accurate orientation is of course valid, but as one develops specific circuit knowledge, establishing braking points will be part of that.
Fwiw, my own experience is that the combination of peripheral vision and knowledge of braking points works well enough for what I do to assess speed.
Not always easy to accomplish on a busy track, but a tried and tested technique for not only learning a circuit very quickly, but also to force one to look through the corners is: one gear (3rd in most things) and no brakes for a few laps. It’s a technique taught by the California Superbike school, but works just as well for cars - very simply it forces you to really read the circuit.
Ps. Hi Gary and Ben.
John
Ps. Hi Gary and Ben.
John
BenElliottRacing said:
I'll have a chat with rob next time I'm up at bruntingthorpe. Your comments above would lead to taking a long time to learn a circuit. Braking instability is caused by holding the wheel too tightly, not vision.
As Rob's clients are either professionals or serious amateurs, I think the working assumption is that the driver already knows the circuit. Holding the wheel too tightly can cause braking instability, but I don't think it's the only cause of braking instability.
To put it another way, if you come full-tilt down the main straight at B'thorpe, stare out your side window, and try to knock 120 mph off your speed, I don't think the softest grip humanly possible is going to keep you pointing in the right direction.
flemke said:
BenElliottRacing said:
I'll have a chat with rob next time I'm up at bruntingthorpe. Your comments above would lead to taking a long time to learn a circuit. Braking instability is caused by holding the wheel too tightly, not vision.
As Rob's clients are either professionals or serious amateurs, I think the working assumption is that the driver already knows the circuit. Holding the wheel too tightly can cause braking instability, but I don't think it's the only cause of braking instability.
To put it another way, if you come full-tilt down the main straight at B'thorpe, stare out your side window, and try to knock 120 mph off your speed, I don't think the softest grip humanly possible is going to keep you pointing in the right direction.
What happened?
BenElliottRacing said:
flemke said:
BenElliottRacing said:
I'll have a chat with rob next time I'm up at bruntingthorpe. Your comments above would lead to taking a long time to learn a circuit. Braking instability is caused by holding the wheel too tightly, not vision.
As Rob's clients are either professionals or serious amateurs, I think the working assumption is that the driver already knows the circuit. Holding the wheel too tightly can cause braking instability, but I don't think it's the only cause of braking instability.
To put it another way, if you come full-tilt down the main straight at B'thorpe, stare out your side window, and try to knock 120 mph off your speed, I don't think the softest grip humanly possible is going to keep you pointing in the right direction.
What happened?
I trust you would agree that maximum braking at 180 mph is a different story from maximum braking at 120 mph.
No, I have not tried max braking from 120 mph with no hands. From my layman's perspective, I have what seems to be more confidence than most do in the phenomenon of self-aligning torque, however, so I am open to possibilities of letting the car do the thinking.
The feasibility of it is obviously dependent on many factors, however, and what is "feasible" in the sense of "being accessible to normal human beings after some practice" is not the same as what is humanly possible by someone out there somewhere.
If you were to tell us that an amateur driving on a bumpy track, in a low polar-moment, short wheelbase car without much anti-dive, without ABS, and with relatively short mechanical trail, could use maximum braking from 180 mph, hands off the wheel, with no control issues, then I must admit that I would be sceptical.
BenElliottRacing said:
No but rob normally teaches in a heathrow rental car and therefore figured that an avensis / astra etc 120mph would be about top wack!
Not with him in the driver's seat! 
Yes, have a chat with him. Of course the driver must have a sense of exactly where he is, and a projection view is going to be more helpful than stereoscopy on its own, as you say. Once you've worked out the braking point, however, the initial straight-ahead view does help stability. If anything, once the car's stability is nailed down, it's easier to experiment with moving that braking point back.
This is the thing that gets me.
No driver should need braking points.
If your speed is different from one lap to the next that point is no longer valid.
By looking into the corner on approach you will know your speed better relative to your target and therefore be able to adapt there and then. Not arriving at the corner either thinking 'oh sh*t!' or 'could have braked later there'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Deq1ISUpHyY
Put flemke into youtube. got the above. you have / had a Mac F1 did you not?
Is this you?
No driver should need braking points.
If your speed is different from one lap to the next that point is no longer valid.
By looking into the corner on approach you will know your speed better relative to your target and therefore be able to adapt there and then. Not arriving at the corner either thinking 'oh sh*t!' or 'could have braked later there'
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Deq1ISUpHyY
Put flemke into youtube. got the above. you have / had a Mac F1 did you not?
Is this you?
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