Hayabusa / Duratec Engine for a 7 Style Kit Car
Discussion
I know this subject has been done before on here and I have read most of the threads buy I am still undecided on engine choice and have three specific questions which I am sure you will be able to answer for me.
1. How long can I expect a Suzuki Hayabusa or other bike engine to last in a car?
2. How much does it cost to install a bike engine in a car, including a reverse gear box?
3. How much does it cost to install a Duratec Engine in a car?
OK, a quick background, I am going to Stonleigh Kit car show and am planning on building a Lotus 7 style kit car, most likely a Westfield but the final decision is yet to be made. I intend using the car for weekend blats, between 2-5 track days a year, the annual trip to Le Mans and hopefully a trip to the Nurburgring. As you will see from my profile I currently drive a Honda Integra Type R, which already revs up to 9000rpm, so the high revs and the noise of a Bike engine don’t put me off. However the hidden costs associated with installing might. Also most of the time I will have a passenger and a weekend bag, so I am concerned that the added weight will destroy the bike engine quickly.
In terms of the Duratec I am not sure what I would need to install it? I had been looking at Zetec and calculated the costs as follows.
Second hand 2.0L Zetec £200
Raceline installation kit with water rail, and sump etc. £1600,
A pair of Webber Carbs £400.
So for a little over £2K I'll have 150BHP and latter on I can add another £2K and get circa 200BHP.
However I cant seem to find out what Kit I need to install a Duratec Engine, and from what I can make out it will not fit onto a type 9 gearbox. Do I need a different sump, water rail etc, can I run it on Carbs or does it have to be the more expensive injection? I can see the future tuneablilty of the Duratec engine as a huge advantage over the Zetec but would like to know what the cost is to install it in the first instance.
Thank you all in advance for you assistance.
1. How long can I expect a Suzuki Hayabusa or other bike engine to last in a car?
2. How much does it cost to install a bike engine in a car, including a reverse gear box?
3. How much does it cost to install a Duratec Engine in a car?
OK, a quick background, I am going to Stonleigh Kit car show and am planning on building a Lotus 7 style kit car, most likely a Westfield but the final decision is yet to be made. I intend using the car for weekend blats, between 2-5 track days a year, the annual trip to Le Mans and hopefully a trip to the Nurburgring. As you will see from my profile I currently drive a Honda Integra Type R, which already revs up to 9000rpm, so the high revs and the noise of a Bike engine don’t put me off. However the hidden costs associated with installing might. Also most of the time I will have a passenger and a weekend bag, so I am concerned that the added weight will destroy the bike engine quickly.
In terms of the Duratec I am not sure what I would need to install it? I had been looking at Zetec and calculated the costs as follows.
Second hand 2.0L Zetec £200
Raceline installation kit with water rail, and sump etc. £1600,
A pair of Webber Carbs £400.
So for a little over £2K I'll have 150BHP and latter on I can add another £2K and get circa 200BHP.
However I cant seem to find out what Kit I need to install a Duratec Engine, and from what I can make out it will not fit onto a type 9 gearbox. Do I need a different sump, water rail etc, can I run it on Carbs or does it have to be the more expensive injection? I can see the future tuneablilty of the Duratec engine as a huge advantage over the Zetec but would like to know what the cost is to install it in the first instance.
Thank you all in advance for you assistance.
Hiya,
I cant help to much with the hidden costs but I would be comparing costs of zetec / duratec + throttle bodies against a Busa. The upgrade from carbs to injection made a big difference to the flexability / driveablity of my car. Admittedly I never got the carbs setup quite right. The other advantage of TBs is the carbs will go out of balance and need fettling where as the tbs wont.
The cost of running carbs just seem to close to the cost of throttle bodies to not go the tbs route. You could also look at converting bike throttle bodies as I know people have had some good results from that.
I cant help to much with the hidden costs but I would be comparing costs of zetec / duratec + throttle bodies against a Busa. The upgrade from carbs to injection made a big difference to the flexability / driveablity of my car. Admittedly I never got the carbs setup quite right. The other advantage of TBs is the carbs will go out of balance and need fettling where as the tbs wont.
The cost of running carbs just seem to close to the cost of throttle bodies to not go the tbs route. You could also look at converting bike throttle bodies as I know people have had some good results from that.
Paul Drawmer said:
How are you guys with bike engines doing with the noise meters? I wonder if the bike engines at high outputs are now getting harder to silence at some tracks where the noise measurement is getting tighter.
i have an Aprilia RSV Edwards Rep (twin race pipes) & a KTM RC8. I get them both through the sound checks ok & they both sound loud. My zetec Stylus is always marginal to get through. Its not as loud as the bikes but always struggles.I have had BECs since 2003, BUT nowdays if I wanted to drive every track in the UK a car engine would be my only option. Noise restrictions are a pain. Fortunately my local track is Brands Hatch and they do not care! So BEC all the way for me. It just give a whole different dimension to the car for me that a car engine does not. If the OP gets himself to Stoneleih then ge might be able to blag a ride in a few
Thanks for all the comments so far I had not even considered noise restrictions. Oulton park is my local track and I understand that they have just lowered their noise limits so that may sway my decision. To be honest I thought the zetec was the way to go until I realised it is not just a case of getting one for £200 off eBay. 2 grand is a lot of cash for 160 bhp hence why I started to consider alternatives and other threads on here suggest the duratec or bike engines. I guess the best thing will be to talk to owners at stonleigh. Thanks again
I must admit I would love a rover v8 installation in fact it was reading nigel deans v8 build that got me interested in kit car building in the first place however I ruled it out as I thought a v8 build would be very expensive so it's interesting that you refer to it as a cheap option. How much do you think it would cost to source a decent engine and what would be required to fit it in a seven? Also would it pass the noise tests at track days and why would it be easy to comply with emmisions? Surely a v8 would have terrible emmisions? Thanks for your advice.
From my experience driving a BEC, the problem I have is the lack of top end which ruins the chance of getting a decent drive on most track days, mainly due to the fact I'm running a live rear axle.
You need to spend a lot of money on a specially made diff from Elite Racing or other(including reverse) at around £2,500.
Speak to people who have built kits with the different engne options and check what diff ratio you will need. Bear in mind the wheel size too.
Eg, I've got a Yamaha R1 with 3.54:1 Diff running 185/60/13 tyres. In top gear it gains 10mph per 1,000 rpm. i.e. 120mph at 12,000rpm. sounds good but on pretty much evey circuit I can top out, I can't even do a standing 1/4 without the rev limiter cutting in at top speed!
This results on bouncing off the rev limiter on a straight, or more sensibly easing off, getting overtaken by slower cars and then getting held up in the corners.
If you are going to run the same engine you will need a diff ratio of around 3:1 or maybe even 2.9:1 if you have small wheels like mine. Most kits use Ford diffs and they are quite limited on available ratios, if you build a mid/rear engined kit (eg Sylva R1ot) then you can use a chain drive which makes changing ratios possible.
Overall, nothing compares to excitement of a sequential box reving its tits off but for driveability, a similar power to weight ratio using a car engine will probably be easier to drive, more useable and practical. In fact, I'm seriously considering selling mine and building something different and using an old stripped BMW 325 for fun on tracks!
You need to spend a lot of money on a specially made diff from Elite Racing or other(including reverse) at around £2,500.
Speak to people who have built kits with the different engne options and check what diff ratio you will need. Bear in mind the wheel size too.
Eg, I've got a Yamaha R1 with 3.54:1 Diff running 185/60/13 tyres. In top gear it gains 10mph per 1,000 rpm. i.e. 120mph at 12,000rpm. sounds good but on pretty much evey circuit I can top out, I can't even do a standing 1/4 without the rev limiter cutting in at top speed!
This results on bouncing off the rev limiter on a straight, or more sensibly easing off, getting overtaken by slower cars and then getting held up in the corners.
If you are going to run the same engine you will need a diff ratio of around 3:1 or maybe even 2.9:1 if you have small wheels like mine. Most kits use Ford diffs and they are quite limited on available ratios, if you build a mid/rear engined kit (eg Sylva R1ot) then you can use a chain drive which makes changing ratios possible.
Overall, nothing compares to excitement of a sequential box reving its tits off but for driveability, a similar power to weight ratio using a car engine will probably be easier to drive, more useable and practical. In fact, I'm seriously considering selling mine and building something different and using an old stripped BMW 325 for fun on tracks!
Having been back-to-back in my Fireblade Fury then a Rover V8 powered Fury, don't even consider a Rover V8. Unless you are into drag racing, and have an aversion to going round corners. Not dissimilar in a straight line ( it was quite highly tuned) but in the corners it felt like there was 4 bags of cement on the bonnet in comparison. I'd still be tempted by a VVC k-series, a 143 version is cheap as chips, with a 52mm TB and decent Decat exhaust / cold air intake mine made 172bhp in my Libra, on reliable rollers. Indestructible too. Keep it 4 cylinder anyway.
Hi, I don't normaly frequent this forum, but not much going on that interests me on the Caterham forum this morning, so I found this discussion interesting.
Here's an alternative for you, which gives you a bike engine, with insatllation of a car box, hence giving you ease of installation, and doing away with that nasty split propshaft, and reversing box.
http://www.h1v8.com/H2.html
Jack Frost. at Holeshot would supply to you in U.K.
http://www.holeshot-racing.co.uk/index.php?page=h2...
But of course, it's expensive!
I also agree with the comment above, regarding the 1.8VVC Rover engine. I had one in a Caterham R300, lovely light, revvy, and tractable little engine.
There's one for sale at the moment with most of the ancilaries, on the L7C forum, that's come out of a Caterham. I think it's going for around £1800, and was brand new, a few thousand miles ago.
Here's an alternative for you, which gives you a bike engine, with insatllation of a car box, hence giving you ease of installation, and doing away with that nasty split propshaft, and reversing box.
http://www.h1v8.com/H2.html
Jack Frost. at Holeshot would supply to you in U.K.
http://www.holeshot-racing.co.uk/index.php?page=h2...
But of course, it's expensive!
I also agree with the comment above, regarding the 1.8VVC Rover engine. I had one in a Caterham R300, lovely light, revvy, and tractable little engine.
There's one for sale at the moment with most of the ancilaries, on the L7C forum, that's come out of a Caterham. I think it's going for around £1800, and was brand new, a few thousand miles ago.
Thanks everyone for all of your help.
I have decided to rule out the V8, it weighs 235KG, which goes against Colin Chapmans ethos for the 7 of light weight. I have also decided I want a windscreen, so that rules out the bike engines. The Duratec is just too expesnive, so its basically a straight choice between a Zetec 2.0L or a K Series which if im honest was an engine i never even considered, even though Caterham were using them for years.
I have decided to rule out the V8, it weighs 235KG, which goes against Colin Chapmans ethos for the 7 of light weight. I have also decided I want a windscreen, so that rules out the bike engines. The Duratec is just too expesnive, so its basically a straight choice between a Zetec 2.0L or a K Series which if im honest was an engine i never even considered, even though Caterham were using them for years.
Black Bess said:
Thanks everyone for all of your help.
I have decided to rule out the V8, it weighs 235KG, which goes against Colin Chapmans ethos for the 7 of light weight. I have also decided I want a windscreen, so that rules out the bike engines. The Duratec is just too expesnive, so its basically a straight choice between a Zetec 2.0L or a K Series which if im honest was an engine i never even considered, even though Caterham were using them for years.
Loads of VVC K's on ebay. More power than a 2.0L Zetec and probably cheaper. Infact I think it's probably lighter too. Don't be fooled by all the old K series horror stories, the later engines will have the better headgasket & dowels and fitting a remote thermostat is easy to do. I have decided to rule out the V8, it weighs 235KG, which goes against Colin Chapmans ethos for the 7 of light weight. I have also decided I want a windscreen, so that rules out the bike engines. The Duratec is just too expesnive, so its basically a straight choice between a Zetec 2.0L or a K Series which if im honest was an engine i never even considered, even though Caterham were using them for years.
Edited by yazza54 on Wednesday 24th March 17:04
HI OP, i'd have thought that your figures for the zetec are a bit out? i'd have to check that i've not get my facts wrong, but am pretty sure that a couple of pals have 170bhp with a standard zetec on bike carbs. A new crate engine is only about £650?. I'd have thought that the initial outlay would be a fair bit less than £2k. As for tuning at a later stage might be worth speaking to Racleine, Scholar or similar and giving them a budget and seeing what they can do at the first hit - normally upgrading afterwards is less cost effective than first time around.
Jon Ison said:
pilbeam_mp62 said:
I think your budget will allow you to buy a Red-top Vauxhall 16 valve engine - I ran one in a hillclimb Westfield a few years ago, and with a pair of Weber carbs, you should easily see 200 bhp.
Regards
what he said, cracking engine.Regards
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