Z3M Coupe - engine queries
Discussion
I've got the itch for a Z3M Coupe. I've wanted one since they first came out, I love the breadvan looks and know that sooner or later I want to get back to M power. But then there are the numerous tales of engines going pop, either because the vanos goes in the S50 or the bearing liners go on the S54.
I'd prefer the more modern S54 (not least because of the electronic driver aids) but am struggling to understand just how common the bearing liner problem really is. I don't remember seeing many stories of e46 M3s being effected, so how come its just the ZM Coupes?
And is there any way of preventing the problem? Is there an easy upgrade? £4-5k for an engine rebuild / replacement isn't really how I want to be spending my hard-earned...
I'd prefer the more modern S54 (not least because of the electronic driver aids) but am struggling to understand just how common the bearing liner problem really is. I don't remember seeing many stories of e46 M3s being effected, so how come its just the ZM Coupes?
And is there any way of preventing the problem? Is there an easy upgrade? £4-5k for an engine rebuild / replacement isn't really how I want to be spending my hard-earned...
I believe both problems occur but suffer from some hype online. Worth searching the forums on z3mcoupe.com if you're not already.
Doubtless a beard will be along shortly to correct my recollection but I believe the bearing shell issue was corrected early in the e46 m3 production runs. Earlier m3 models were subject to a recall to correct the problem but this wasn't extended to the z3 as it was deemed unnecessary due to a more limited rpm.
Doubtless a beard will be along shortly to correct my recollection but I believe the bearing shell issue was corrected early in the e46 m3 production runs. Earlier m3 models were subject to a recall to correct the problem but this wasn't extended to the z3 as it was deemed unnecessary due to a more limited rpm.
Wrighty,
With respect, I think you've let the internet warriors get the better of you.
First of all, VANOS failure on the S50 cars is very rare and steps can be taken to reduce the risk altoghether, such as proactive maintainance of the VANOS unit itself, as well as regular oil changes - and of course, not revving the car too hard from cold.
IIRC, the S54 cars were strangled at 7500rpm to specifically mitigate bearing failure and as such, I'm sure the attributed S54 failures afflicted the early M3s with their higher rev limit.
FWIW though, I'm not overly convinced the S54 cars are worth the premium over the early Z3Ms; the later cars producing only a fraction more power.
For more information, you may find the Z3M Coupe forum of use.
With respect, I think you've let the internet warriors get the better of you.
First of all, VANOS failure on the S50 cars is very rare and steps can be taken to reduce the risk altoghether, such as proactive maintainance of the VANOS unit itself, as well as regular oil changes - and of course, not revving the car too hard from cold.
IIRC, the S54 cars were strangled at 7500rpm to specifically mitigate bearing failure and as such, I'm sure the attributed S54 failures afflicted the early M3s with their higher rev limit.
FWIW though, I'm not overly convinced the S54 cars are worth the premium over the early Z3Ms; the later cars producing only a fraction more power.
For more information, you may find the Z3M Coupe forum of use.
Thanks chaps - much appreciated.
And I take your point about the dangers of being unduly swayed by internet scare stories.
There also seemed to be a few stories about the S50 ripping its own boot floor out due to inadequate spot welds. Is this another over-hyped story or a genuine concern? It seems that this was remedied in the S54?
And thanks for the links to the z3m forum. That's where I was getting the scare stories from...
And I take your point about the dangers of being unduly swayed by internet scare stories.
There also seemed to be a few stories about the S50 ripping its own boot floor out due to inadequate spot welds. Is this another over-hyped story or a genuine concern? It seems that this was remedied in the S54?
And thanks for the links to the z3m forum. That's where I was getting the scare stories from...
I took a tool set to check the boot floor of S54 models as well just in case. I don't recall reading that that had been reengineered between models. There is a chap in the US (posts on zroadster.net iirc) that has an aftermarket reinforcement kit. I've seen posts regarding spot welds but only a couple where the boot is torn clean out. Spot weld problem you need to lift the sound proofing materials to get at but I think you'd see a tear straight away but you'd surely notice it on the test drive handling and noise?
I worried about all the same points particularly after mistakes I made buying my first one. Received wisdom I was given was to buy based on condition and where possible from a clearly enthusiastic owner regardless of engine model or mileage.
I worried about all the same points particularly after mistakes I made buying my first one. Received wisdom I was given was to buy based on condition and where possible from a clearly enthusiastic owner regardless of engine model or mileage.
wrighty78 said:
Thanks chaps - much appreciated.
And I take your point about the dangers of being unduly swayed by internet scare stories.
There also seemed to be a few stories about the S50 ripping its own boot floor out due to inadequate spot welds. Is this another over-hyped story or a genuine concern? It seems that this was remedied in the S54?
And thanks for the links to the z3m forum. That's where I was getting the scare stories from...
Torn boot floors are not unique to the Z3M; both the E36 and E46 suffered failures too. However, as I understand, such failures are a result of 'over enthusiasm' as opposed to a design or build flaw.And I take your point about the dangers of being unduly swayed by internet scare stories.
There also seemed to be a few stories about the S50 ripping its own boot floor out due to inadequate spot welds. Is this another over-hyped story or a genuine concern? It seems that this was remedied in the S54?
And thanks for the links to the z3m forum. That's where I was getting the scare stories from...
It's worth checking, but I don't think it's a common occurance.
Thanks guys.
Yadi - I'd be interested to hear more about the "mistakes" you made buying your first one?
There are so few around for sale that I guess it's a waiting game until the right one comes up.
Munich Legends have a very nice looking yellow S54 for £18k - does this look a bit toppy or about right? The Phoenix Yellow is really growing on me.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1521558.htm
Or this higher milage S50 looks to be well looked after. Just a shame it's at the wrong end of the country...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1577417.htm
Aside from z3mcoupe.com, is there anywhere else I should be looking?
Yadi - I'd be interested to hear more about the "mistakes" you made buying your first one?
There are so few around for sale that I guess it's a waiting game until the right one comes up.
Munich Legends have a very nice looking yellow S54 for £18k - does this look a bit toppy or about right? The Phoenix Yellow is really growing on me.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1521558.htm
Or this higher milage S50 looks to be well looked after. Just a shame it's at the wrong end of the country...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1577417.htm
Aside from z3mcoupe.com, is there anywhere else I should be looking?
Hi wrighty78
Ultimately there weren't mechanical checks I could have made myself or spotted on a test drive. You mention going 'back to M Power' so you'll likely be going in better equipped from the outset than I did when I shopped for my S50 in that regard anyway.
My biggest mistake was not being patient and driving enough examples. I wouldn't buy one from a dealer who isn't regularly selling this sort of car again (including BMW dealerships). More detail would take the thread off topic (and risk falling foul of the name and shame policy) but I'm happy to elaborate via PM.
As you say there aren't that many for sale. Last year I was all set to arrange an RAC inspection and a test drive for an example near Edinburgh and another near Newcastle (I'm in Hampshire) when there were twice as many for sale as now so I wouldn't rule out a long journey for the right car. You do get the fun of driving it back home after all.
Prices have been all over the place for the last year as well. With so few on sale I gave up trying to work out what market price really was when I got mine. I paid what I was happy with and it's intended to be a keeper so I'm not fussed on resale price. That's me justifying a premium perhaps but I'm pretty happy it's not depreciating too much.
By the same token I don't doubt someone will pay Munich Legends close to their asking price for the PY S54 you've linked to. I'm not sure how much different a drive from oem the UUC EVO3 short sift kit makes but I'd be going to check it out if I were looking to buy at the moment. They've just sold their black S54 that was up for £20k.
Ultimately there weren't mechanical checks I could have made myself or spotted on a test drive. You mention going 'back to M Power' so you'll likely be going in better equipped from the outset than I did when I shopped for my S50 in that regard anyway.
My biggest mistake was not being patient and driving enough examples. I wouldn't buy one from a dealer who isn't regularly selling this sort of car again (including BMW dealerships). More detail would take the thread off topic (and risk falling foul of the name and shame policy) but I'm happy to elaborate via PM.
As you say there aren't that many for sale. Last year I was all set to arrange an RAC inspection and a test drive for an example near Edinburgh and another near Newcastle (I'm in Hampshire) when there were twice as many for sale as now so I wouldn't rule out a long journey for the right car. You do get the fun of driving it back home after all.
Prices have been all over the place for the last year as well. With so few on sale I gave up trying to work out what market price really was when I got mine. I paid what I was happy with and it's intended to be a keeper so I'm not fussed on resale price. That's me justifying a premium perhaps but I'm pretty happy it's not depreciating too much.
By the same token I don't doubt someone will pay Munich Legends close to their asking price for the PY S54 you've linked to. I'm not sure how much different a drive from oem the UUC EVO3 short sift kit makes but I'd be going to check it out if I were looking to buy at the moment. They've just sold their black S54 that was up for £20k.
wrighty78 said:
Thanks guys.
Yadi - I'd be interested to hear more about the "mistakes" you made buying your first one?
There are so few around for sale that I guess it's a waiting game until the right one comes up.
Munich Legends have a very nice looking yellow S54 for £18k - does this look a bit toppy or about right? The Phoenix Yellow is really growing on me.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1521558.htm
Or this higher milage S50 looks to be well looked after. Just a shame it's at the wrong end of the country...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1577417.htm
Aside from z3mcoupe.com, is there anywhere else I should be looking?
I had an S50B32 engined M Coupe, which I dearly loved. It did have to have a Vanos replaced, and as it is a bit of a wild animal in the wet, I would go for that little bit of extra safety with an S54 and the (albeit rather crude) DSC.Yadi - I'd be interested to hear more about the "mistakes" you made buying your first one?
There are so few around for sale that I guess it's a waiting game until the right one comes up.
Munich Legends have a very nice looking yellow S54 for £18k - does this look a bit toppy or about right? The Phoenix Yellow is really growing on me.
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1521558.htm
Or this higher milage S50 looks to be well looked after. Just a shame it's at the wrong end of the country...
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1577417.htm
Aside from z3mcoupe.com, is there anywhere else I should be looking?
I'd love to support the theory that the S50 VANOS issue is overhyped, but my experience would suggest otherwise. The car I bought had its Vanos replaced by the previous owner under BMW warranty. About 6 months after I owned the car I had to have the VANOS rebuilt after one of its bearings became pitted.
Admittedly it wasn't the usual VANOS failure, rather a poor quality part on the unit the BMW had fitted when they carried out the warranty replacement. The Vanos has been problem since then though, which was May 2008. I've always respected the 3k rpm rev limit when the oil is cold, it was just bad luck with parts quality.
S54 owners on z3mcoupe.com have had the bearing failures, some have taken the preventative measure of having the shells replaced before any failure occurs. Search that forum for a post by a user called Exdos, as he posted a very comprehensive write up of his experience when the shell failed in his S54.
DC
Admittedly it wasn't the usual VANOS failure, rather a poor quality part on the unit the BMW had fitted when they carried out the warranty replacement. The Vanos has been problem since then though, which was May 2008. I've always respected the 3k rpm rev limit when the oil is cold, it was just bad luck with parts quality.
S54 owners on z3mcoupe.com have had the bearing failures, some have taken the preventative measure of having the shells replaced before any failure occurs. Search that forum for a post by a user called Exdos, as he posted a very comprehensive write up of his experience when the shell failed in his S54.
DC
I think the vanos failure is not rare at all! It is a well known failure on these engines. My car has only 55k on the clock has full bmw serice history and guess what its had 2 vanos units replaced by BMW. Only last week the solernoid seals give way again but I managed to catch it before the oil completley left the engine.
Not trying to put anyone off these cars they are awsome but the bmw vanos solernoid seals aren't up to the job, but uprated ones are available and should cure any further issues
Not trying to put anyone off these cars they are awsome but the bmw vanos solernoid seals aren't up to the job, but uprated ones are available and should cure any further issues
Edited by joshG on Wednesday 24th March 15:10
Guys, guys, guys...
It's well known that BMW GB were all too eager to replace the VANOS units on the S50B32 as it allowed the individual dealers to claim back the labour + cost from BMW AG, thus netting a tidy little profit as well as keeping the customers happy. I have this on good authority from an ex BMW Mastertech before you all call foul.
Now that there are more people out there who understand the system, it is considered that with rigid maintenance, the VANOS units are actually very reliable. Remember, a grumbly VANOS soes not equal a knackered VANOS
The unit can only be considered to have failed if it's pissing out oil or not providing the requisite torque surge at 2500rpm; even then, the cost of repair could be minor depending on what has broken.
It's well known that BMW GB were all too eager to replace the VANOS units on the S50B32 as it allowed the individual dealers to claim back the labour + cost from BMW AG, thus netting a tidy little profit as well as keeping the customers happy. I have this on good authority from an ex BMW Mastertech before you all call foul.
Now that there are more people out there who understand the system, it is considered that with rigid maintenance, the VANOS units are actually very reliable. Remember, a grumbly VANOS soes not equal a knackered VANOS
The unit can only be considered to have failed if it's pissing out oil or not providing the requisite torque surge at 2500rpm; even then, the cost of repair could be minor depending on what has broken. Great Pretender said:
Torn boot floors are not unique to the Z3M; both the E36 and E46 suffered failures too. However, as I understand, such failures are a result of 'over enthusiasm' as opposed to a design or build flaw.
It's worth checking, but I don't think it's a common occurance.
I can't think of many other cars where "over enthusiasm" can break the structural integrity of the car! Engines/gearboxes/diffs etc maybe but not the body itself. It is quite a rare occurance (and as has been said you tend to only here about failures) but it is a design flaw too, and more will probably succumb to it as the cars get older. Mainly because the design/weld configuration allows for slight flex, which leads to fatigue and eventual failure of spotwelds which gets worse each facture and the load on the rest increases. But it's not a mammoth task to fix and can be prevented quite easily with some simple welding (increasing welds etc).It's worth checking, but I don't think it's a common occurance.
The S54s aren't immune but there was some recognition by BMW due to the fact that a very slightly thicker gauge metal diff bracket was fitted (along with extra welds on the cross member). However it IS rare and not a big deal IMO unless it's left untreated.
Edited by c_w on Thursday 25th March 15:50
Edited by c_w on Thursday 25th March 15:51
Edited by c_w on Thursday 25th March 16:02
WRT bearing shell failure in the S54 - I understand that they were all replaced on the E46 M3s, so that is why you don't have the same problem on those engines. However, on the Z3MC they (BMW) claimed that the slightly lower rev limit meant that they wouldn't fail.
Evidence suggests otherwise on Z3MCoupe.com where (of 168 RHD S54s) there have been at least 3 or 4 *DOCUMENTED* failures.
WRT the VANOS, I think the point was summed up well by one of the other posters. You don't need a whole new VANOS very often. My car had one under warranty at 58,000 miles. It's been noisy for the last 10,000 miles (at least) and is now at 101,000. I don't think it's going to last forever, though and it will come off the car for a refurb next winter.
Jez
Evidence suggests otherwise on Z3MCoupe.com where (of 168 RHD S54s) there have been at least 3 or 4 *DOCUMENTED* failures.
WRT the VANOS, I think the point was summed up well by one of the other posters. You don't need a whole new VANOS very often. My car had one under warranty at 58,000 miles. It's been noisy for the last 10,000 miles (at least) and is now at 101,000. I don't think it's going to last forever, though and it will come off the car for a refurb next winter.
Jez
Out of interest, why is there a lowered rev limit on the Z3M compared to the E46 M3 if they (at one point) were using exactly the same engine? Did the Z3M come out after the E46 M models, and therefore the bearing shell problem had already surfaced so BMW knocked the rev limited down rather than put their hand in their pocket and actually fix the issue?
'Yadi said:
Something to do with shorter wheelbase requiring different gearing?
Is the wheelbase the distance across each axel and pair of wheels? If it is, I don't understand why that would mean the engine revs had to be lowered? If they reduced the rev limit by some margin, did BMW re-tune the engine to compensate?Gassing Station | M Power | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff