newbie needing advise

[Matt russell]

hi im new to the site and kit cars lol i have had loads of fast sports cars and now i doo alot of off roading but i really want to get into track days/racing in the caterham style kit cars.
only i cant afford a caterham so i have been looking at tigers and robin hoods and locost cars.

i know nothing about these cars so thought i would ask here for some info like are any of them no good for racing and whats the cheapes option and genrally any info on these kind of kit cars a newbie needs to know lol.

many thanks
Matt

[slomax]

Robin hoods are cheap for a reason. The kit quality isn't great but if you are good with metal work and put in enough time you can get a decent result. They will always be at the cheap end of the market though. Tigers are good (zetec ones are the ones you want really). Westys are good too dependant on budget. Really cheap ones are about £5k but you can get decent ones for about £7k. MK indys and midi's seem to be pretty decent too and highly regarded. Sylva also do some pretty quick kits too but i don't know if the are "7" enough for you.
I'm sure some more experienced kit and 7 builders will be along shortly to help out.
Niall

[Furyblade_Lee]

Get yourself to the Stoneleigh kit car show in may and see what takes your fancy.

[Matt russell]

i use to be an engineer so would have no problem making things fit, that and a have a really big hammer lol.
the tiger would be my first choice really then the mk indy but the robin hood is tempting because of the price, i have seen them half built for less than 1k but would it be competative on a track with the right engine? also whats the handling like compaired to the others?

many thanks
Matt

[singlecoil]

Matt russell said:

but the robin hood is tempting because of the price, i have seen them half built for less than 1k but would it be competative on a track with the right engine? also whats the handling like compaired to the others?

No it wouldn't be competitive (generally speaking) but then you haven't specified which model. You might be ok with the Zero, simply because unlike the other RHs it's a conventional 7. The handling on all 7s can be made pretty good with careful attention to geometry (don't assume that the manufacturer's work is perfect), decent quality components, good tyres, careful setting up etc

[Sam_68]

Most 'Sevens' are bloody good fun, but it's a bit more of a minefield if you're intending track use... particularly if you intend racing as well as just non-competitive track days.

Are you intending to build yourself, or buy second hand? I'll assume the latter for the moment:

A Sylva or derivative (Fisher, Raw Striker, Phoenix, etc.) or a recent MK Indy would definitely be your best bet at the budget end of the range if you want something genuinely competitive.

Some of the Tigers are more suitable than others; the 'original' Tiger Super Six was a bit overweight generally and almost always used the Pinto engine (which is a huge overweight boat anchor by Seven standards and will blunt your handling a bit). Some of the later 'budget' Tigers use single-donor Sierra components, so not only the Pinto engine, but the Sierra semi-trailing arms, which again are too heavy for this type of car and don't have ideal geometry. You can recognise the semi-trailing arm cars by the bulges moulded into the rear wheel arches to clear them.

Failing that, the Locost type cars can be adequate, but it's a bit of a lottery; even some of those that look nice can sometimes have accuracy of chassis geometry that you'd expect from a stool with 1/2" sawn off one leg. If you're going for a Locost, buy try to buy one with a known successful competition history, so that you've got at least some assurance that all the wheels are pointing vaguely in the right direction and the springs and dampers have been set up reasonably.

Personally there ain't a bargepole out there long enough for me where either Locosts (because of inconsistency) or Robin Hoods (because of weight, design and general shed-like qualities) are concerned, but there are owners who defend both marques fiercely. Of course there's the Locost Race Series and if you're only planning to enter the Donkey Derby, it isn't a problem if you're riding a donkey, but even then you need to make sure its a good donkey...

I guess the most sensible advice if you're a beginner is to look at what is winning in the category you're thinking of competing in... you occaisionaly get 'bandwagons' for a particular car, but far more often there's a damn good reason why one marque dominates both the grid and the podium, and you'll have your work cut out trying to beat them, particularly as a novice. Links to recent 750 Club Championship results are available here.

Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 27th March 16:57

[S47]

Avoid - Robin Hood absolutely abysmal suspension, too heavy, Sad owners club.
Most other 7 replica's are OK -eg westfield, locost, tiger, sylva, RAW, or the Older Dutton's are also worth your time and effort, though you basically get what you pay for.
My Kitcar History:-
1972-1977 Various Lotus 7's
1986-present Dutton Phaeton 2litre zetec injecton - owned since 1986, originally had a webered 2L pinto fitted but converted to Zetec in 2001.
Have driven all the other kits mentioned above on track days etc.
Built a Robin Hood - 2000, Did a great job on the car and sold it for a big profit 2 years later after continuous aggro from the RH owners club, including getting thrown off their stand at donnington for daring to criticise the safety of the RH kit unless certain essential Improvements were made, and I saw plenty of cars at Donnington without these mods!!!!
2003-present Original 1970 Lotus 7 completely rebuilt and fitted with an injected 2 litre zetec in place of the fitted Boat Anchor [X flow]
Hope this helps you decide.
In your position I'd buy a Locost or Sylva striker, depending on your budget, you can always upgrade to westfield or Caterham when you can afford it
Mal

[Sam_68]

S47 said:

Most other 7 replica's are OK ...the Older Dutton's are also worth your time and effort

The OP may need to clarify, but remember he's talking about racing... there are several 'Seven' replicas that would be wholly uncompetitive and whilst it might be a bit of a laugh for hillclimbs and sprints, a Dutton certainly couldn't cut the mustard in most modern circuit formulae (especially the 750 Club series, which demand chassis and suspension to be to the original manufacturer's design).

You're being a tad unfair on the Crossflow, by the way - whilst the Zetec is certainly more powerful, well-mannered and efficient, it's actually heavier that the engine you're calling a 'boat anchor'.

[Matt russell]

yes i would definatly want to race it, thats why i want it as its a cheap-ish way to get started, would also want it road legal but thats not such a big deal.

budget.....well there isnt one as such i usualy do my homwork on what it is i want then raise the cash to get it. my job has been cut to part time now and im haveing a off road defender built for me so im a little broke for a fue weeks but the second my landys done i will be ready to get one all going well.

i notice theres 1.6 and 2.0 engines used in these cars i would obviosly like the faster option but i was thinking if i plan on racing would i be better in the slower class to begin with, crawl before i run and all.

many thanks
Matt

[S47]

Sam 86
40 years ago the X flow was overshadowed by the BDA & Lotus Twincam engines today it's overshadowed by EVERYTHING and ought to be consigned to a Dustbin or museum IMO.
When I bought my Lotus 7 it had a reputed 135 BHP 1700cc X flow fitted, basically the thing was gutless, and the 135 horses must've been tiny Shetland ponies, it also only did 19MPG on 40dcoe webers. I'd been used to driving similar Kit cars with 2 litre pinto with 45's - Very Grunty and gutsy motor,25MPG and standard 2 litre injected Zetecs 35-40MPG Both of these motors really show up just how Sad the X flow really is, in the modern world.
Regarding the weight of the X flow against Zetec, the difference is 3kg, it's easy to save this much with a lightened flywheel and Magnesium Bellhousing, both of which I fitted to my Lotus 7. SO the weight issue is a non issue IMO
For sure there are Caterham owners who love their Xflows - nowt wrong with that, however when fitting an engine into a new kitcar I'd want the best available for sensible money, in these circumstances the Xflow would be last on my list.
Mal

[Matt russell]

i was thinking maybe a 4age engine, i had a cam'd hi torque 4age on twin 45 mukini carbs in my old ae86 and them engines can be picked up for nuts and can be mated to the type 9 gear box.....i only no that because my ae86 had that box fitted aswell lol.

but i really wanted the 20v version and there 165bhp i think standard, my 16v was that and it was tuned im prett sure the 20v arn't that difficult to get to 200bhp and being a 1.6 should be quite lite.

theres always the bike engine route though. im not sure how the whole engine and racing thing goes together though as theres obviosly loads of different engines fitted to these cars but surly race cars have to have the same engine as what your racing against? sorry if that sounds dumb lol

matt

[Paul Drawmer]

S47 said:

Sam 86
40 years ago the X flow was overshadowed by the BDA & Lotus Twincam engines today it's overshadowed by EVERYTHING and ought to be consigned to a Dustbin or museum IMO.
When I bought my Lotus 7 it had a reputed 135 BHP 1700cc X flow fitted, basically the thing was gutless, and the 135 horses must've been tiny Shetland ponies, it also only did 19MPG on 40dcoe webers. I'd been used to driving similar Kit cars with 2 litre pinto with 45's - Very Grunty and gutsy motor,25MPG and standard 2 litre injected Zetecs 35-40MPG Both of these motors really show up just how Sad the X flow really is, in the modern world.
Regarding the weight of the X flow against Zetec, the difference is 3kg, it's easy to save this much with a lightened flywheel and Magnesium Bellhousing, both of which I fitted to my Lotus 7. SO the weight issue is a non issue IMO
For sure there are Caterham owners who love their Xflows - nowt wrong with that, however when fitting an engine into a new kitcar I'd want the best available for sensible money, in these circumstances the Xflow would be last on my list.
Mal

A friend of mine had a Xflow Caterham in which he got T-boned. After he recovered(!) he built himself a Kseries caterham. According to the specs, both cars had the same weight and power. He can assure you that there's a world of difference! In a car like a 7 you can really feel the advantage of the lighter engine. And the somewhat beefier horses.

[Paul Drawmer]

Matt russell said:

i was thinking maybe a 4age engine, i had a cam'd hi torque 4age on twin 45 mukini carbs in my old ae86 and them engines can be picked up for nuts and can be mated to the type 9 gear box.....i only no that because my ae86 had that box fitted aswell lol...

That's interesting Matt, why put the type 9 gearbox in the Corolla, was there an advantage over the Toyota 'box? I sold them new, the AE86 had a LSD as std, good fun car.

[Sam_68]

S74 said:

40 years ago the X flow was overshadowed by the BDA & Lotus Twincam engines today it's overshadowed by EVERYTHING and ought to be consigned to a Dustbin or museum IMO.

But the same could be said for your Series 4 Seven - hell, it was overshadowed in its day by the car it was supposed to replace, let alone by some of the chassis available today.

Don't get me wrong; I certainly wouldn't choose a Crossflow if I was building a car today.

It sounds like you had a bad one if your '135'bhp Seven was gutless, though (and a lot of them were thrown together and produce nothing like the horsepower claimed). The last time my Crossflow engined Sylva was on the Dyno, it took three of us sitting on the boot to stop it climbing out of the rollers...

Overshadowed in its day by the Lotus Twin Cam and BDA? Possibly, but the BDA was a very expensive and specialised engine. The Lotus Twin Cam wasn't cheap, either, and there isn't as much difference between a Twin Cam and a well-built Crossflow as you might imagine (I'm fortunate enough to be able to draw direct comparison, because I have a Lotus Twin Cam to QED420 spec. in the Elan that sits alongside my Crossflow engined Sylva). The Twink is more tractable and torquey (it's more torquey than most modern 16 valves, too FWIIW), but actually produces less power than the Crossflow. Incidentally, a BDA was the only engine I've personally blown up (testing a BDA engined Mallock) - and I'm damned glad it wasn't me footing the bill to rebuild it.

And before you jump to the conclusion that I'm some flat-cap Fred Dibnah type who won't tolerate modern engines, I ought to point out that alongside the Lotus and the Sylva sits a carbon fibre Westfield with a 175bhp K-series...

Perhaps it's just my personal use of the word, but I'd only apply the term 'boat anchor' to an engine that is grossly overweight and under-powered; Pintos and Jaguar XK's for example. A Crossflow is neither, which is why I thought you were being a bit unfair... in its day it was probably the most suitable engine available for a 'Seven', unless you had very deep pockets.

But you're right; it's day has passed and the OP certainly doesn't want one in a race car unless the championship regulations demand it.

[S47]

Sam 68
You raise Some good points regarding the BDA & TC engines but they were easily available, just like a 300 BHP Duratec or Honda Vtec is today.
However I'd disagree about the S4, It came out at a time when Beach buggies were COol and got pigeon holed with them It suffered underdevelopment, no infact it never had any development from Lotus after it was released on sale during it's 4 years of production. The big problem with the S4 were the production costs, it needed to be made in quantity to to viable commercially, Caterham at that time were a small outfit, so for them re-instatement of the s3 was the Cheap option, and then the S4 was consigned to history.
As a race car the S4 was far superior to the S3, In 1986 [12 years after S4 production ceased] a privateer driving an S4 beat all the New caterham sponsored S3's in the 7 series, After which a sad caterham employeee named 'Jez Coates' got the privateer and his S4 banned from 7 racing One of the local 'Taffia' members now owns this S4.
All the verbal negativity towards the S4 was propagated by Caterham who had a commercial interest in seeing their re-introduced S3 succeed, unfortunately all these untruth's still remain. I suggest you read the 2001 C&SC test on Lotus 7's where they compare all the lotus 7 series. Their conclusion is very interesting.

My use of the term 'boat anchor' could also be used on several other engines from the 60's most notably the 'A' series. which is still powering plenty of 'sporty' cars IMO these boat anchor engines have only one purpose remaining in life, which is to power your 'Fred Dibnar anorak types ' to the various classic car shows held every weekend.:wave:
Mal

[Ferg]

S47 said:

My use of the term 'boat anchor' could also be used on several other engines from the 60's most notably the 'A' series. which is still powering plenty of 'sporty' cars IMO these boat anchor engines have only one purpose remaining in life, which is to power your 'Fred Dibnar anorak types ' to the various classic car shows held every weekend.:wave:

I think to use the term 'boat anchor' on an engine simply because it's been superseded technically is very unfair. The 'A'Series and Ford Kent are both engines which I think are far from being 'boat-anchors', they aren't even particularly heavy in modern terms yet, unless put alongside the 'K'.
There are plenty of engines which were low-powered and heavy at inception that deserve the name.

[Matt russell]

Paul Drawmer said:

Matt russell said:

i was thinking maybe a 4age engine, i had a cam'd hi torque 4age on twin 45 mukini carbs in my old ae86 and them engines can be picked up for nuts and can be mated to the type 9 gear box.....i only no that because my ae86 had that box fitted aswell lol...

That's interesting Matt, why put the type 9 gearbox in the Corolla, was there an advantage over the Toyota 'box? I sold them new, the AE86 had a LSD as std, good fun car.

im not sure, the convesion was already done when i bought the car. i did look into it though and fensport sell the conversion kit i think it was somthing like £1500 to do. its probably done for strength and if you do brake the box its cheap to replace then as ae86 stuff is very expensive.

i think the ultimate engine would be the honda s2000 and its six speed box that agen is another populer ae86 conversion.

matt

[Sam_68]

S47 said:

...the BDA & TC engines but they were easily available, just like a 300 BHP Duratec or Honda Vtec is today.

Oh, come now... would you care to compare the total production figures (and hence scrapyard availability) of the Duratec and the VTEC with those of the Twin Cam and BDA? Both were very specialised and relatively limited production engines. The Crossflow was the Zetec of its day... you could buy fully modified engine to road/race spec for less than the cost of a cylinder head for the Twin Cam. Not a fair comparison at all.

S47 said:

...However I'd disagree about the S4...

Well, that goes without saying, being as you own one. The fact that the S3 shape continues in production to the present day and is regarded as an icon, copied by numerous manufacturers, whereas the S4 is regarded as a quaint footnote in the history books, is justification enough, I think, to say that it was overshadowed.

But whatever... it certainly couldn't hack it against modern competition in the common kit car racing formulae, so it's every bit as obsolete as the Crossflow.

Am I the only one to see the irony in your championing the Seven S4, the Dutton and the Pinto, whilst deriding the Crossflow, alone, as a museum piece?

[Ferg]

I didn't notice the Pinto reference.
I always feel it's only saving grace in Sevens is that it comes free in a scrap Sierra.
It's ridiculous height is responsible for the awful restyling of most of the Seven clones on the market.

[Tim.C]

Hi Matt.

If you want to go racing, I'd suggest that you decide which series you want to race in before you select a car. I can wholly recommend the 750 Motor Club. The club is racing at Mallory Park on Sunday and the Locosts are at Combe on Monday. I dipped my toe in the racing scene last season in Locosts. Locosts is a fantastic series with very big/full grids and fantastically close racing. You do need a carefully honed chassis and engine however to be competitive. This is about as cheap as racing gets. As I guide, I sold my 'just' top-10 capable car and trailer for £4400 and a season will cost you about £5k. There is no such thing as cheap racing. A 1380cc also won't be competitive in any other series.

I'm moving to one of the other championships (for 2011) as a friend and I decided to embark on a project and we both like bike-engined machines. My 5th 'kit' car is therefore currently in build to race in the RGB series. RGB looks to be in a good position - grids should be strong later in the year when a number of new cars are completed. The Kit Car class is however struggling at the moment due largely to wranglings about regulations. While many engines can be used at presesnt, including the 4age and V8s, the series is moving to Zetec and Duratec classes only. I personally still think that the future of the Championship is far from certain so beware.

If you do want to race a car-engined kit that isn't a Zetec or Duratec there are other options including 'local' championships such as Castle Combe GTs, the Welsh Saloons and Sports and the North West Championship. There's also the Magnificent 7s series, if you are looking at a loosely 7-ish shape.