Yellow Box Junctions (revisited)
Discussion
Since the government decided to announce that cameras may be set up to catch people illegaly sitting in the box it seems that drivers have been scared shitless of these junctions. I have noticed that the number of people who refuse to enter the box when turning right has increased.
Over the past few days I have been held up loads of times in traffic while some numpty waits for all the oncoming traffic to clear before moving on. So this allows one car to clear the juction instead of 3. Other twats have sat at the lights out side the box, then the lights change and they just sit there because the light is red. THREE TIMES before they decide to go!
Why do these people have a licence?
Over the past few days I have been held up loads of times in traffic while some numpty waits for all the oncoming traffic to clear before moving on. So this allows one car to clear the juction instead of 3. Other twats have sat at the lights out side the box, then the lights change and they just sit there because the light is red. THREE TIMES before they decide to go!
Why do these people have a licence?
Munta said:Because society today is set up for car users. I met a chap over 80 who had given up driving once and then started again. When he stopped driving he found taxis were so unreliable that he couldn't get his shopping. He didn't want to drive.
Why do these people have a licence?
Munta said:
Since the government decided to announce that cameras may be set up to catch people illegaly sitting in the box it seems that drivers have been scared shitless of these junctions. I have noticed that the number of people who refuse to enter the box when turning right has increased.
It's because non-PH readers haven't a clue as to how a YBJ works. There was coverage of the threat to erect cameras, but I can't recall any of the articles relating how a YBJ works or what you can and cannot do in one. Typical! - Streaky
>> Edited by streaky on Monday 23 February 07:25
How many people read the Highway Code AFTER they have passed their driving test?
My guess is probably less then 1%.
It seems that the only people that do read it are :-
Police Officers/Professional drivers advancing their driving careers.
People having been stopped for a driving offence and wish to contest it.
People who have been disqualified from driving and have to do a re-test.
The amount of people that I’ve stopped and said “What does that sign mean?” and they look at me blankly. (I even had a Polish guy didn’t know what a no entry sign was)
Highway code sates :
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see Other road markings section). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.
Law TSRGD reg 10(1)
The problem is, is that 'experienced' drivers on this site don't seem to know the law.
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see Other road markings section). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.
Law TSRGD reg 10(1)
The problem is, is that 'experienced' drivers on this site don't seem to know the law.
monster1 said:
Highway code sates :
Box junctions. These have criss-cross yellow lines painted on the road (see Other road markings section). You MUST NOT enter the box until your exit road or lane is clear. However, you may enter the box and wait when you want to turn right, and are only stopped from doing so by oncoming traffic, or by other vehicles waiting to turn right.
Law TSRGD reg 10(1)
The problem is, is that 'experienced' drivers on this site don't seem to know the law.
If that is directed at me, I reckon that is a cheap shot. I was told never to stop in a YBJ by my RoSPA observer - A Traffic Accident Investigator for the local force. He said as long as the wheels were moving - no matter how slowly - no offence is committed.
The simple rule is that you should not ENTER a YBJ unless the EXIT is clear.
Not what's also in the YBJ (e.g. cars carrying coming towards you when you are turning right) but the exit.
The rule also applies whether you are going straight on or turning left.
Nothing whatsoever to do with not stopping in the box. The exit is either clear in which case you can enter (and stop if oncoming traffic is in the way) or it's not clear in which case you shouldn't enter.
Phil.
Not what's also in the YBJ (e.g. cars carrying coming towards you when you are turning right) but the exit.
The rule also applies whether you are going straight on or turning left.
Nothing whatsoever to do with not stopping in the box. The exit is either clear in which case you can enter (and stop if oncoming traffic is in the way) or it's not clear in which case you shouldn't enter.
Phil.
The HC refers to "The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions", however these appear to lay down the marking of the YBJ, but neither the proscribed nor the permited actions within a YBJ. A quick search hasn't thrown up a reference in the RTA or elsewhere. Can anyone point to chapter and verse, please? - Streaky
I never rely on just the Highway Code (because of those modal verbs as they can be so confusing!) 
And being "foreign"....
My little yellow book "Know Your Traffic Signs" says:
(published by DfT)
"Where it is likely stationary traffic could block a road, a yellow box may be marked on the road, covering all or part of the junction. You must not enter the box if your exit is not clear, except if you want to turn right and are only prevented from doing so by oncoming traffic or other stationary vehicles waiting to turn right" (page 42)
AND published by DSA : DRIVING, the essential skills!
Page 98
"Yellow criss cross lines mark a box junction.
'Their purpose is to keep the junction clear by preventing traffic from stopping in the path of crossing traffic.
'You MUST NOT enter a box junction unless your exit road is clear. But you can enter the box when you want to turn right and you are only prevented from doing so by oncoming traffic."
It is also repeated in my IAM/RoSPA books, and rule to me is just common sense. In fact, even if there is no box and the road is blocked full of standing traffic in front of me - I stay put - as it would be plain daft and discourteous to block traffic.
And being "foreign"....
My little yellow book "Know Your Traffic Signs" says:
(published by DfT)
"Where it is likely stationary traffic could block a road, a yellow box may be marked on the road, covering all or part of the junction. You must not enter the box if your exit is not clear, except if you want to turn right and are only prevented from doing so by oncoming traffic or other stationary vehicles waiting to turn right" (page 42)
AND published by DSA : DRIVING, the essential skills!
Page 98
"Yellow criss cross lines mark a box junction.
'Their purpose is to keep the junction clear by preventing traffic from stopping in the path of crossing traffic.
'You MUST NOT enter a box junction unless your exit road is clear. But you can enter the box when you want to turn right and you are only prevented from doing so by oncoming traffic."
It is also repeated in my IAM/RoSPA books, and rule to me is just common sense. In fact, even if there is no box and the road is blocked full of standing traffic in front of me - I stay put - as it would be plain daft and discourteous to block traffic.
streaky said:
The HC refers to "The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions", however these appear to lay down the marking of the YBJ, but neither the proscribed nor the permited actions within a YBJ. A quick search hasn't thrown up a reference in the RTA or elsewhere. Can anyone point to chapter and verse, please? - Streaky
Streaky,
TSR&GD 2002 Schedule 19 part II said:
Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
I would also interpret as follows:
Say you are vehicle number 2 in a queue waiting to turn right at a box junction.
Vehicle 1 enters YBJ waiting for gap in oncoming traffic to turn into road @ 3 o'clock = Legal
You, vehicle 2, can see that once V1 has turned right and there is a no opposing traffic there will still be space in road @ 3 o'clock for you, then also legal for you to wait in YBJ behind V1.
Lets say, for argument sake, that you V2 would take up last space in 3 o'clock road.
V3 behind you would be illegal if they also entered YBJ and waited behind V1 & V2.
Equally assuming that V1 & V2 have taken up position in YBJ waiting for a gap only to find that opposing traffic turns left and fills up their target spaces, then V1 & V2 are now illegal.
Classic case of its not the specific position but how you get there that should determine whether something is an offence or not. This means automatic enforcement by electronic or civilian jobsworths without a grain of common sense / ability to apply judgement rubs so many up the wrong way.
Legislation hardly ever can deal satisfactorily with something that ought to be common sense.
Anyway hoped answered your question about the wording of the legislaton.
Cheers,
FiF
Flat in Fifth said:FiF - thanks for chapter and verse, most useful.
Prohibition conveyed by markings in diagram 1043 or 1044
7. - (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, the road markings shown in diagrams 1043 and 1044 shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.
(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person -
(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right; and
(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn.
Say you are vehicle number 2 in a queue waiting to turn right at a box junction.
Vehicle 1 enters YBJ waiting for gap in oncoming traffic to turn into road @ 3 o'clock = Legal
You, vehicle 2, can see that once V1 has turned right and there is a no opposing traffic there will still be space in road @ 3 o'clock for you, then also legal for you to wait in YBJ behind V1.
Lets say, for argument sake, that you V2 would take up last space in 3 o'clock road.
V3 behind you would be illegal if they also entered YBJ and waited behind V1 & V2.
Equally assuming that V1 & V2 have taken up position in YBJ waiting for a gap only to find that opposing traffic turns left and fills up their target spaces, then V1 & V2 are now illegal.
However, your interpretation is not in accordance with the wording. 7.(2)(b) indicates that any number of vehicles can enter the YBJ if they are turning right and their exit is blocked by oncoming vehicles or other stationary vehicles waiting to complete a right turn. What it does not indicate is whether these stationary vehicles are oncoming or travelling in the same direction. One can construct an instance of two opposing queues of stationary vehicles blocking each other because of "pass on the off-side" road markings (e.g. dual carriageway) - it would be legal for the vehicles to enter the YBJ, but their exit might be impossible thereafter. Clearly an "obstruction" might thereby be committed.
WildCat said:Wildcat - it would appear that, in this case at least, the HC is completely correct and your "little yellow book" and DSA's DRIVING are not entirely correct.
I never rely on just the Highway Code (because of those modal verbs as they can be so confusing!)
And being "foreign"....
My little yellow book "Know Your Traffic Signs" says:
(published by DfT)
"Where it is likely stationary traffic could block a road, a yellow box may be marked on the road, covering all or part of the junction. You must not enter the box if your exit is not clear, except if you want to turn right and are only prevented from doing so by oncoming traffic or other stationary vehicles waiting to turn right" (page 42)
AND published by DSA : DRIVING, the essential skills!
Page 98
"Yellow criss cross lines mark a box junction.
'Their purpose is to keep the junction clear by preventing traffic from stopping in the path of crossing traffic.
'You MUST NOT enter a box junction unless your exit road is clear. But you can enter the box when you want to turn right and you are only prevented from doing so by oncoming traffic."
It is also repeated in my IAM/RoSPA books, and rule to me is just common sense. In fact, even if there is no box and the road is blocked full of standing traffic in front of me - I stay put - as it would be plain daft and discourteous to block traffic.
Streaky
streaky said:
One can construct an instance of two opposing queues of stationary vehicles blocking each other ....
Absolutely.
Equally it doesn't say that the opposing vehicles preventing you from turning right actually have to be moving.
I was only considering a particular instance of a queue of vehicles waiting to turn right with a moving flow of traffic in the opposite direction. This was intended as a comment to munta's post starting this thread where he observed that the number of vehicles turning right is reduced to one per traffic light cycle.
Clearly if folks know the rules, providing their exit is clear then (n) vehicles can enter the YBJ, where (n) = no of spaces available on exit route.
As an aside, round here, if you try to position for a right turn at any junction offside to offside as recommended other drivers look at you as if you've grown two heads.
FiF
>> Edited by Flat in Fifth on Tuesday 24th February 12:14
streaky said:
Verdammte Englaender! Zey cannot even be writing zair rules properly!
Do ya think they give me a refund?
Traurig, keine Rückerstattungen von der Regierung B'liar - Streaky
Schade! Das Leben hier bei Euch? Das ist kein Honiglecken!
Beim Fahren muss ich immer in den sauren Apfel beissen! 
Bravo! Du sprichst perfekt Deutsch!
Course - being Swiss ....!
For those who no understanding......basically sayin' "Wot! No refund! Blimey! Hard life here! (especially in a car!)"
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