Replacing Crossflow with Zetec in Westfield
Discussion
Hi everyone
New here and just finding my way round.
I have a Westfield SEI i built around 1990. It has a Crossflow 1600 that if I remember right came from a 1969 Ford Capri. It currently has twin Weber 40 DCOE and a mild road cam. It is fitted to a (if I remember right) late Cortina 4 speed box.
I am considering replacing the engine with a 2.0L Ford Zetec and wonder if anyone can help with some questions?
1) Will the Zetec mate straight to the cortina box, possibly using the adapter plate I have for the Crossflow?
2) The Zetec comes with throttle body, coil pack, injectors, fuel rail and engine loom. What options have I for a ECU system and how easy to fit adapt?
3) What power might I expect from a relatively standard Zetec albeit with a Westfield exhaust system?
4) With the car having been registered in 1991 and originally fitted with a 1969 engine, will I need a catalytic convertor? Howzabout emissions?
Thanks
Cameron
New here and just finding my way round.
I have a Westfield SEI i built around 1990. It has a Crossflow 1600 that if I remember right came from a 1969 Ford Capri. It currently has twin Weber 40 DCOE and a mild road cam. It is fitted to a (if I remember right) late Cortina 4 speed box.
I am considering replacing the engine with a 2.0L Ford Zetec and wonder if anyone can help with some questions?
1) Will the Zetec mate straight to the cortina box, possibly using the adapter plate I have for the Crossflow?
2) The Zetec comes with throttle body, coil pack, injectors, fuel rail and engine loom. What options have I for a ECU system and how easy to fit adapt?
3) What power might I expect from a relatively standard Zetec albeit with a Westfield exhaust system?
4) With the car having been registered in 1991 and originally fitted with a 1969 engine, will I need a catalytic convertor? Howzabout emissions?
Thanks
Cameron
Edited by cameronke on Monday 5th April 11:53
I think the Zetec is a pretty heavy old lump, and is it worth swapping the crossflow for the Zetec?
I know you've already planned it, but what were the factors in determining that the Zetec was the engine of choice?
If it was 'ease of job' it may be that a lighter, more powerful engine may not cost a lot more and may be easier than you think.
I reckon that with any 7type, going for the lighter engine will always be a better option.
I know you've already planned it, but what were the factors in determining that the Zetec was the engine of choice?
If it was 'ease of job' it may be that a lighter, more powerful engine may not cost a lot more and may be easier than you think.
I reckon that with any 7type, going for the lighter engine will always be a better option.
Paul Drawmer said:
is it worth swapping the crossflow for the Zetec?
That is indeed a very good question. The crossflow engine has a lot going for it, especially its size, weight and lack of complexity.A well tuned crossflow will produce as much power, if not more, than a standard Zetec. The Zetec will pull better from low rpm (ideal for a shopping car) but is that a desirable aspect in a Westfield?
Paul Drawmer said:
I think the Zetec is a pretty heavy old lump, and is it worth swapping the crossflow for the Zetec?
I helped a friend take a Zetec E out of the back of a transit a few weeks back and I thought it was surprisingly light, really not much more than a crossflow.It's certainly a worthwhile swap for a road car; you can get a decent amount nof power from a crossflow, but you end up with something that pretty horrible to drive for road use. The Zetec comes with ~130bhp as standard, getting that up to 150-160bhp isn't hard whilst retainting good manners, and of course it bolts right up to the standard Ford bell housing.
Thanks for the replies!
To be honest the engine change is a bit of a pipe dream but I have seen a new Zetec on Ebay
The main driving idea for me is driveability. With the weight of the Westfield I dont need too much power to make it fun. But it is primarily a road car and where i consider carb set up etc to be a bit of an art, fuel injection is more precise (welcome any comments!) The Webers with a bit of spirited driving get less than 10mpg
If I were to get 130hp and good driveability then it would mission accomplished
I do like the idea of mappable fuel injection. How much of an option would it be for retrofit to the Crossflow?
Sounds like the Crossflow may have some good things going for it.........
Cameron
To be honest the engine change is a bit of a pipe dream but I have seen a new Zetec on Ebay
The main driving idea for me is driveability. With the weight of the Westfield I dont need too much power to make it fun. But it is primarily a road car and where i consider carb set up etc to be a bit of an art, fuel injection is more precise (welcome any comments!) The Webers with a bit of spirited driving get less than 10mpg
If I were to get 130hp and good driveability then it would mission accomplished
I do like the idea of mappable fuel injection. How much of an option would it be for retrofit to the Crossflow?
Sounds like the Crossflow may have some good things going for it.........
Cameron
You can retro fit fuel injection to almost any engine; there are several fuel injected crossflows around. In fact PPC magazine have a current project of a supercharged and fuel injected crossflow that will being going into a Westfield.
If you have a tuned crossflow then driveability and fuel economy will likely see significant improvements over DCOEs, and depending on how well the DCOEs were set up you may well get more power as an extra benefit.
You will need to add a trigger wheel to the crank pulley, and install a fuel return like to the tank. If the tank isn't baffled then an external swirl pot may be needed to ensure an uninterrupted supply of fuel to the high pressure pump. You can keep your existing manifold and air filters if you go for DCOE type throttle bodies (e.g. Jenvey). Choose an ECU that is supported by a local rolling road establishment unless you don't mine travelling a long way to get it mapped, or want to have a go yourself.
The beauty of using DCOE style throttle bodies is it will all be transferable over to another engine (e.g. Zetec) should you decide to upgrade in the future.
Answering one of your original questions, on a registered vehicle emissions will go on the age of the car so you wouldn't need a cat in your case.
If you have a tuned crossflow then driveability and fuel economy will likely see significant improvements over DCOEs, and depending on how well the DCOEs were set up you may well get more power as an extra benefit.
You will need to add a trigger wheel to the crank pulley, and install a fuel return like to the tank. If the tank isn't baffled then an external swirl pot may be needed to ensure an uninterrupted supply of fuel to the high pressure pump. You can keep your existing manifold and air filters if you go for DCOE type throttle bodies (e.g. Jenvey). Choose an ECU that is supported by a local rolling road establishment unless you don't mine travelling a long way to get it mapped, or want to have a go yourself.
The beauty of using DCOE style throttle bodies is it will all be transferable over to another engine (e.g. Zetec) should you decide to upgrade in the future.
Answering one of your original questions, on a registered vehicle emissions will go on the age of the car so you wouldn't need a cat in your case.
Edited by Mr2Mike on Monday 5th April 13:46
often people think a zetec must be lighter as its a more modern engine.
wrong: the zetec-block was still made of heavy iron-cast, its also very tall and please compare the zetec against a x-flow head:
zetec: alloy
x-flow: iron cast
zetec: large
x-flow: small
zetec: 2camshafts, 2 steel cambelt pulleys, cambelt tightener, 16 valves, 16 valve guides, 16 valveseats, 16 valvesprings
x-flow: 1 camshaft in the block, 1 short camshaft chain and sprocket, no tightener, 8 valves, 8 valve springs, no valve seats (if still original), no valve guides, 8 pushords.
wrong: the zetec-block was still made of heavy iron-cast, its also very tall and please compare the zetec against a x-flow head:
zetec: alloy
x-flow: iron cast
zetec: large
x-flow: small
zetec: 2camshafts, 2 steel cambelt pulleys, cambelt tightener, 16 valves, 16 valve guides, 16 valveseats, 16 valvesprings
x-flow: 1 camshaft in the block, 1 short camshaft chain and sprocket, no tightener, 8 valves, 8 valve springs, no valve seats (if still original), no valve guides, 8 pushords.
Zetec 5kg more according to this:
http://westfield-world.com/enginespecs_car.html
It won't be a cheap swap though if you want injection.
Have a look on the Westfield forum: http://boardroom.wscc.co.uk/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi
Lots of info about this swap if you do a search.
http://westfield-world.com/enginespecs_car.html
It won't be a cheap swap though if you want injection.
Have a look on the Westfield forum: http://boardroom.wscc.co.uk/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi
Lots of info about this swap if you do a search.
Comadis said:
often people think a zetec must be lighter as its a more modern engine.
wrong: the zetec-block was still made of heavy iron-cast,
Casting technology has moved on a lot; just because the Zetec block is made from a similar material to the old crossflow you can't assume it weighs the same or more.wrong: the zetec-block was still made of heavy iron-cast,
All DOHC engines are taller than pushrod ones, it's the nature of the beast. The Zetec isn't especially tall for a DOHC engine however, and has been successfully fitted to a huge number of Lotus 7 style kits where height is often a major problem.
SidewaysBob said:
Zetec 5kg more according to this:
http://westfield-world.com/enginespecs_car.html
It won't be a cheap swap though if you want injection.
It is quite possible to retain the OEM Ford injection system, though it presents several of it's own challenges (large inlet manifold often fouls the steering link for starters).http://westfield-world.com/enginespecs_car.html
It won't be a cheap swap though if you want injection.
SidewaysBob said:
The Crossflow isn't quite that heavy. I weighed mine, last time I had it out of the car, and complete with flywheel, inlet manifold and twin webers (but no other ancillaries) it weighed 107kg exactly. The 115kg for the Zetec is completely bare (ie. including flywheel, but no ancillaries or injection/carbs, so the real difference is going to be 12-13kg.The extra weight of the Zetec isn't enough to worry about but, equally, you can't criticise the Crossflow for being 'overweight' just because it's an old-tech cast iron block and head.
It doesn't produce anything like the power of the Zetec, mind you, but it's got a lot more character!
Mars said:
It's a well-trodden path, whether you retain the carbs or go for FI... or retain the carbs for now and upgrade to FI later.
There will be no re-testing or re-registering either. You just tell te DVLA of your new engine number and capacity.
DVLA will also want to see a receipt on headed paper for the engine. If you don't have this then you will need an engineers report stating that the new engine (number) is actually installed in the car. I got my local MOT station to do this. They could not write a report so gave me an invoice wordedThere will be no re-testing or re-registering either. You just tell te DVLA of your new engine number and capacity.
"Inspect vehicle XYZ 123 to confirm engine number xxxxxx is installed". DVLA were happy with that.
Steve
Did this swap a few years back. Box-stock 2l Zetec, 1800 flywheel, Westfield 'sports' exhaust and manifold, DIY bike ITBs, Emerald ECU, 170bhp. Chalk and cheese compared to the old 130-140bhp Xflow I took out. Way more torque, more power, better driveability, better economy, doesn't wee oil on the floor all the time like the Xflow either. Pair of cams should see close to 200bhp. How bad is that for a £150 engine (plus the extra costs of course....).
Budget a fair few quid for the extras though - water rail, sump, Escort water pump, 1800 flywheel, inlet manifold and ITBs if you go that way, clutch, engine mounts, probably remote oil filter fittings etc. I paid £150 for the engine, and probably £1000 for the rest! If you buy ITBs, add another £1k. I already had the ECU and ITBs on the Xflow, so it was cheaper.
As mentioned, a well trodden path. Engine is taller so will require care to get in under the bonnet line.
HTH
Budget a fair few quid for the extras though - water rail, sump, Escort water pump, 1800 flywheel, inlet manifold and ITBs if you go that way, clutch, engine mounts, probably remote oil filter fittings etc. I paid £150 for the engine, and probably £1000 for the rest! If you buy ITBs, add another £1k. I already had the ECU and ITBs on the Xflow, so it was cheaper.
As mentioned, a well trodden path. Engine is taller so will require care to get in under the bonnet line.
HTH
We also did this swap a few years ago. From a 1700 x-flow to a 1800 Zetec with twin webers.
We didn't do the conversion ourselves, things like the gearbox stayed the same, just lifted slightly.
Made the car sooo much more drivable with lots of power throughout the rev range. Definitely recommend doing the conversion.
We didn't do the conversion ourselves, things like the gearbox stayed the same, just lifted slightly.
Made the car sooo much more drivable with lots of power throughout the rev range. Definitely recommend doing the conversion.
Hi all, sorry for resurrecting an old thread, but I have just got myself a 1.7 Crossflow Westfield.
I'd like to set myself the challenge over the winter of swapping the engine to a 2.0 Zetec myself (with a few friends as well) - Having never done anything like this before I have a lot to learn, but being of reasonable intelligence I'm sure with plenty of reading and advice we can tackle this - no time limit imposed.
Does anyone know of a rough internet guide / build diary of someone that has done the same before?
I'm afraid I don't know the type of gearbox currently installed in the Westy, I'll find out later on when the project moves forward to see if it will bolt straight to the engine. Would people recommend carbs? (I do love the noise!) I'm looking for around the 180-200 bhp mark if that is obtainable.
As said I'm in no rush, and want to learn everything 110% first.
Appreciate any advice for a beginner looking to learn.
I'd like to set myself the challenge over the winter of swapping the engine to a 2.0 Zetec myself (with a few friends as well) - Having never done anything like this before I have a lot to learn, but being of reasonable intelligence I'm sure with plenty of reading and advice we can tackle this - no time limit imposed.
Does anyone know of a rough internet guide / build diary of someone that has done the same before?
I'm afraid I don't know the type of gearbox currently installed in the Westy, I'll find out later on when the project moves forward to see if it will bolt straight to the engine. Would people recommend carbs? (I do love the noise!) I'm looking for around the 180-200 bhp mark if that is obtainable.
As said I'm in no rush, and want to learn everything 110% first.
Appreciate any advice for a beginner looking to learn.
Edited by harry1980 on Monday 3rd September 15:22
harry1980 said:
I'm afraid I don't know the type of gearbox currently installed in the Westy, I'll find out later on when the project moves forward to see if it will bolt straight to the engine. Would people recommend carbs? (I do love the noise!) I'm looking for around the 180-200 bhp mark if that is obtainable.
A genuine 200bhp isn't cheap or easy from a Zetec E; a gas flowed head and "bigger" cams will be needed. I wouldn't recommend carbs to anybody these days when fuel injection systems are readily available and give so much scope for tuning. Individual throttle bodies make pretty much the same noise as DCOE style carbs.The gearbox should bolt up the the engine block - you will just need to sort out an appropriate clutch and release bearing for the flywheel you use.
Im currently installing a 2 litre phase 3 zetec otherwise known as a blacktop with efi and jenvey throttle bodies into my Ginetta G32. It originally had a 1.6cvh with mechanical fuel injection however it should be quite similiar transplant from yours.
I'll be honest if your doing the conversion properly, its not cheap and can be a real headake.
Some things I found that I needed that was not on everyones conversion were, two fuel pumps (high and low pressure), a swirl pot to eliminate fuel starvation, oil catch tank, a 1.8 zetec flywheel (although using an CVH EFi out an escort mk3 turbo with drilling out the wholes to 11mm would of been lighter), a way of doing without aircon (can either use a pulley system or a 1.8 water pump as only the 2litre runs opposite way), thermostat, check to see which side you need the alternator on as commonly its on the inlet side which I didnt have room for and then ofcourse engine mounts but that should be easier for you.
These are so far some of the unexpected costs or problems I didnt get forewarned on but if you need any more info just give us a pm.
I'll be honest if your doing the conversion properly, its not cheap and can be a real headake.
Some things I found that I needed that was not on everyones conversion were, two fuel pumps (high and low pressure), a swirl pot to eliminate fuel starvation, oil catch tank, a 1.8 zetec flywheel (although using an CVH EFi out an escort mk3 turbo with drilling out the wholes to 11mm would of been lighter), a way of doing without aircon (can either use a pulley system or a 1.8 water pump as only the 2litre runs opposite way), thermostat, check to see which side you need the alternator on as commonly its on the inlet side which I didnt have room for and then ofcourse engine mounts but that should be easier for you.
These are so far some of the unexpected costs or problems I didnt get forewarned on but if you need any more info just give us a pm.
ITBs sound the same as carbs, so no problem there. For the fuel pump/swirl setup on mine, I used a 16V Golf MkII (I think it was) unit which is a handy self-contained pump/swirl/filter unit. Blingy it ain't, but it works fine. If you located it at the back, you might get away with just the one HP pump, rather than having to have a low pressue lift pump feeding the HP one. I didn't bother removing the old Facet pump our car was originally built with - just left it in place as the lift pump and put the HP pump unit under the bonnet. Put a flow restrictor in the tank return line (which you may well find needs installing as well) to stop the Facet from running at full tilt all the time.
On the face of it, adding the EFI is expensive compared to carbs, but it really is worth it IME. Totally trouble free once it's mapped and a far nicer drive.
As noted, it's the extras that tend to push the costs up. Basic engines can be cheaply had.
As for is it worth it - I would say absolutely yes.
On the face of it, adding the EFI is expensive compared to carbs, but it really is worth it IME. Totally trouble free once it's mapped and a far nicer drive.
As noted, it's the extras that tend to push the costs up. Basic engines can be cheaply had.
As for is it worth it - I would say absolutely yes.
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