Moral dilemna... Do I or don't I report them...
Discussion
I know a guy who's a very pleasant chap, friendly, chatty and seems like a decent guy. However, he runs a property development company and is very boastful of how he both lives for nothing and also gets a lot of his building work done for free.
Examples are buying white goods, getting them delivered to a renvoation site of his, then taking htem onto his own house. When he got an extension done, getting the tradesmen he regularly uses to bill the work between a couple of renvoation jobs he had ongoing etc. Even his tv and some of his furniture has been charged against projects as staging props, but they have a permanent home in his house.
He is a nice guy and on I wouldn't be reporting him on any sort of vindictive grounds, but what he's doing is wrong and at such a scale undermines thsoe who properly pay their tax.
I'm very unsure what to do and nothing seems like an option and then perhaps the taxman will catch him anyway...
Examples are buying white goods, getting them delivered to a renvoation site of his, then taking htem onto his own house. When he got an extension done, getting the tradesmen he regularly uses to bill the work between a couple of renvoation jobs he had ongoing etc. Even his tv and some of his furniture has been charged against projects as staging props, but they have a permanent home in his house.
He is a nice guy and on I wouldn't be reporting him on any sort of vindictive grounds, but what he's doing is wrong and at such a scale undermines thsoe who properly pay their tax.
I'm very unsure what to do and nothing seems like an option and then perhaps the taxman will catch him anyway...
You have no legal obligation to report him so I would stay out of it. I would be reluctant to get involved with a character like that however, especially with regard to business matters.
I am sure he has an accountant and, under the Manoey laundering and Proceeds of Crime Regulations, the accountant should be reporting this behaviour to the Serious and Organised Crime Authority.
I am sure he has an accountant and, under the Manoey laundering and Proceeds of Crime Regulations, the accountant should be reporting this behaviour to the Serious and Organised Crime Authority.
skilly1 said:
Isn't this how the real world works when your not living in the safe bubble of a large corperate. Good luck to the guy, he works hard, pay a lot of tax I am sure and he happens to get a few frebebies on the way.
What?!?!? How does the amount of tax he pays (and we don't actually know that anyway) obviate him from the laws of the land - that include not stealing, not committing false accounting, not making false representation, not committing fraud and so on?!?!? I agree I'd stay out of it, but I certainly don't condone it!He creates some perks for himself. Good for him.
After all, all small business men are unpaid tax collectors , something is needed for all the time /money and effort that goes into financial admin.
It sounds like he is better at running his business than he is at choosing friends/acquaintances.
After all, all small business men are unpaid tax collectors , something is needed for all the time /money and effort that goes into financial admin.
It sounds like he is better at running his business than he is at choosing friends/acquaintances.
Edited by Cheese Mechanic on Thursday 8th April 09:48
I'm almost tempted to say "report him". Not because he's finding ways to reduce his tax burden that the Revenue would "disapprove" of (to say the least!) but because he was dumb enough to have told you!
If you wanted to be kind you should tell him never to speak of such things again in front of anyone at all.
The Revenue are very, very unforgiving if you take the piss. Quite rightly.
There are enough legal ways without resorting to anything else. His accountant should be helping him do those.
If you wanted to be kind you should tell him never to speak of such things again in front of anyone at all.
The Revenue are very, very unforgiving if you take the piss. Quite rightly.
There are enough legal ways without resorting to anything else. His accountant should be helping him do those.
I know quite a few people over the years the same who have lived 'tax free'.
The assumption they make is that their income will remain constant or increase. It rarely does. One day their lives will unfold as they cannot fund the lifestyle they have got used to. Another truth is that well off people rarely dodge tax they pay others for advice to put in place legal tax schemes that may save them a few percent here and there. Legally. They are earning enough to fund a lifestlye. You friend sounds like he is using lemonade money on a champagne lifestyle.
The building trade is a classic example.
I view tax-dogers in the same line as benefit cheats. Why don;t you just emabarass him at a public event and ask him what his view are - say the next time he whines about benefit cheats, immigrants or the state of schools, lack of police, ask him what he is doing about it.
The assumption they make is that their income will remain constant or increase. It rarely does. One day their lives will unfold as they cannot fund the lifestyle they have got used to. Another truth is that well off people rarely dodge tax they pay others for advice to put in place legal tax schemes that may save them a few percent here and there. Legally. They are earning enough to fund a lifestlye. You friend sounds like he is using lemonade money on a champagne lifestyle.
The building trade is a classic example.
I view tax-dogers in the same line as benefit cheats. Why don;t you just emabarass him at a public event and ask him what his view are - say the next time he whines about benefit cheats, immigrants or the state of schools, lack of police, ask him what he is doing about it.
I don't see anything morally wrong with what your friend is doing. I pay quite a lot of money to an accountant to get me out of paying as much personal and business tax as possible, both now and for the future.
Am I morally bankrupt?
And anyway, who is to say he is not just borrowing the equipment while the place is done and then shifting it back there when complete?
Am I morally bankrupt?
And anyway, who is to say he is not just borrowing the equipment while the place is done and then shifting it back there when complete?
normally i'd say leave it, this happens a lot with small businesses but
1. he's very open about it which isn't clever
2. apparent volume and frequency, he's taking the pee frankly
To those having a pop at his accountant he/she may not be aware of the full facts; invoice from A Builder comes in for £40k for work on No. 40 Smith Street renovation, quote might say £28k but it's building so costs are expected to change/over run so how would accountant know that the £12k has gone on an extension to the consultants house. Too many variables.
I know of a local businessman who's accountant was none the wiser to his many "benefits" for years because the businessman kept his books in very good order and everything dodgy was off-book, re-costed as per above etc. The accountant only found out through a mutual acquaintance and shopped the businessman.
anonymous call to HMRC fraud line?
1. he's very open about it which isn't clever
2. apparent volume and frequency, he's taking the pee frankly
To those having a pop at his accountant he/she may not be aware of the full facts; invoice from A Builder comes in for £40k for work on No. 40 Smith Street renovation, quote might say £28k but it's building so costs are expected to change/over run so how would accountant know that the £12k has gone on an extension to the consultants house. Too many variables.
I know of a local businessman who's accountant was none the wiser to his many "benefits" for years because the businessman kept his books in very good order and everything dodgy was off-book, re-costed as per above etc. The accountant only found out through a mutual acquaintance and shopped the businessman.
anonymous call to HMRC fraud line?
Sarah_W said:
Examples are buying white goods, getting them delivered to a renvoation site of his, then taking htem onto his own house. When he got an extension done, getting the tradesmen he regularly uses to bill the work between a couple of renvoation jobs he had ongoing etc. Even his tv and some of his furniture has been charged against projects as staging props, but they have a permanent home in his house.
Ignoring the tax part of it. Is he renovating just his own properties or does he renovate buildings on behalf of clients? If so his clients are essentially paying extra on jobs to fund his own house. Are his clients aware of this?Edited by Mr Overheads on Thursday 8th April 10:19
LeeME3 said:
skilly1 said:
Isn't this how the real world works when your not living in the safe bubble of a large corperate. Good luck to the guy, he works hard, pay a lot of tax I am sure and he happens to get a few frebebies on the way.
What?!?!? How does the amount of tax he pays (and we don't actually know that anyway) obviate him from the laws of the land - that include not stealing, not committing false accounting, not making false representation, not committing fraud and so on?!?!? I agree I'd stay out of it, but I certainly don't condone it!Run you own business (maybe you do in which case you should know) and see how hard it is to make any money, and when you do the government takes it off you or they make it bloody difficult to make any progress.
Many years ago I worked as a junior with HMRC, one of my roles involved assisting with opening the mail and sorting it into the correct dept pigeon holes. (This involved reading a bit of it).
There was quite a lot of these tip offs, and there wss a common theme. All the folk being reported seemed to be very boastful about how much tax they were Evading telling all & sundry in the pub etc how they were doing it and how clever they were.
It struck me that folk were reported not because others were jealous of the benefits they were enjoying, but because they were thinking that their comeuppence was long overdue, (The details given sometimes implied the person reporting was very close to the guilty party)
We'll all turn a blind eye to somethings that we come across, but likewise we'll all probably get fed up with someone who harps on about how smart they are all the time, enjoying benefits they're probably not entitled to.
There was quite a lot of these tip offs, and there wss a common theme. All the folk being reported seemed to be very boastful about how much tax they were Evading telling all & sundry in the pub etc how they were doing it and how clever they were.
It struck me that folk were reported not because others were jealous of the benefits they were enjoying, but because they were thinking that their comeuppence was long overdue, (The details given sometimes implied the person reporting was very close to the guilty party)
We'll all turn a blind eye to somethings that we come across, but likewise we'll all probably get fed up with someone who harps on about how smart they are all the time, enjoying benefits they're probably not entitled to.
AndyAudi said:
Many years ago I worked as a junior with HMRC, one of my roles involved assisting with opening the mail and sorting it into the correct dept pigeon holes. (This involved reading a bit of it).
There was quite a lot of these tip offs, and there wss a common theme. All the folk being reported seemed to be very boastful about how much tax they were Evading telling all & sundry in the pub etc how they were doing it and how clever they were.
It struck me that folk were reported not because others were jealous of the benefits they were enjoying, but because they were thinking that their comeuppence was long overdue, (The details given sometimes implied the person reporting was very close to the guilty party)
We'll all turn a blind eye to somethings that we come across, but likewise we'll all probably get fed up with someone who harps on about how smart they are all the time, enjoying benefits they're probably not entitled to.
You worked for HMRC? Im calling for an immediate ban from the forum! There was quite a lot of these tip offs, and there wss a common theme. All the folk being reported seemed to be very boastful about how much tax they were Evading telling all & sundry in the pub etc how they were doing it and how clever they were.
It struck me that folk were reported not because others were jealous of the benefits they were enjoying, but because they were thinking that their comeuppence was long overdue, (The details given sometimes implied the person reporting was very close to the guilty party)
We'll all turn a blind eye to somethings that we come across, but likewise we'll all probably get fed up with someone who harps on about how smart they are all the time, enjoying benefits they're probably not entitled to.
AndyAudi said:
It struck me that folk were reported not because others were jealous of the benefits they were enjoying, but because they were thinking that their comeuppence was long overdue,.
That was the spite caused by the petty jealousy/envy. People always make excuses for when they know they are being nasty. Because , it is just that, envy/jealousy. The spite is the actual "reporting" . "HMRC anonymous phoneline" Just like Stalin and Hitler encouraged people to do.Of course, a huge slice of double standards as well, because you can bet your life that those who do do that kind of thing,would do exactly what they are "reporting" if they could.
Ok, the man should keep his gob shut,and he obviously needs different friends, but that is no reason to ruin someone's life, not burgling houses or blowing up cars , is he?
"Reporting" people to the HMRC is a downright evil thing to do, I personally, know of one case of a man who was driven to a premature death after being pursued by the HMRC (unjusifiably) his family later received a large compensation payout , it was too late for him though, he was already dead.
Sarah_W almost said:
I know a guy who's a very pleasant chap, friendly, chatty and seems like a decent guy. However, he runs a property development company and is very boastful of how he both lives for nothing and also gets a lot of his building work done for free.
He boasts that he steals from his clients and demands bribes from his sub-contractors. But he's a decent bloke really
I'm very unsure what to do and nothing seems like an option and then perhaps the taxman will catch him anyway...
He boasts that he steals from his clients and demands bribes from his sub-contractors. But he's a decent bloke really
I'm very unsure what to do and nothing seems like an option and then perhaps the taxman will catch him anyway...
various_pistonheads said:
Yeah, thats OK. Perfectly reasonable. Who wouldn't be a stealing, lying scrote given the chance?
Or am I misunderstanding something?Edited by TooLateForAName on Thursday 8th April 15:43
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