RE: Free £1,500 'Shares' In UK Roads Mooted
Monday 12th April 2010
Giveaway plan aims for less of this...That's the verdict of think-tank The Social Market Foundation, which claims so-called 'mutualisation' of the road network is the best way to convince the public that road charging is fair.
...and more of thisThe report recommends a 'voucher mutualisation' of the Strategic Roads Network. Unlike the privatisations of the 1980s, it says, under this policy every citizen in the UK would receive a tradable share in the road network for free, accompanied by the abolition of Vehicle Excise Duty and the introduction of road pricing.
Free £1,500 'Shares' In UK Roads Mooted
Shares for UK citizens will make road-pricing fairer, says report
British citizens should be given a free tradable £1500 'share' in the UK road network, as a precursor to the introduction of pay-as-you-go driving charges.
Giveaway plan aims for less of this...
"Road user charging is the policy solution, but a political hot potato," says the SMF in its latest report called Roads to Recovery.
"To overcome public opposition to charging, a radical strategy is needed to separate the policy of road user charging from voters' fears that they'll be made to pay more, with politicians using the policy to raise more revenue to pay down the state's debt mountain. Voters must be presented with a policy that makes road pricing something that is in their interests because they, and not the Treasury, benefit directly from the proceeds. They must also retain ownership of the roads, rather than seeing them sold off to private financiers."
...and more of this
"Any profits from operating the roads would then go to the shareholders: British citizens," says the report.
"At 10p per mile - similar to charges in continental Europe - we can expect each citizen's share to be worth some £1,500 on the open market, after taking account of the investment that road tax currently funds. Individuals would have the choice of whether to hold on to their share and benefit from the profits, or sell it and take the money."
Based on transport survey data, the SMF reckons the average driver would be better off to the tune of £75 per year, paying less in tolls than they currently do in road tax.
Heavy road users would pay more, but would benefit from a reduction in congestion the SMF says would result from the new charges.
Discussion
Duh!
Are we really going to believe that the politicos would scrap road tax in favour of road pricing?
If we go down this route, there would be no turning back and we'd all be worse off for it - no investment in new roads, taxed to drive on them and then charged per mile, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the charges would go up faster than Tigers wood....
Are we really going to believe that the politicos would scrap road tax in favour of road pricing?
If we go down this route, there would be no turning back and we'd all be worse off for it - no investment in new roads, taxed to drive on them and then charged per mile, and you can bet your bottom dollar that the charges would go up faster than Tigers wood....
This could go either one of two ways...
- Road tax and fuel duty would be removed. We would pay for the fuel we use, the insurance for the car, and 10p per mile. Any profits after maintenance and investment would be given back to those that held on to their shares. People without a car at all would make a profit.
- Road tax would remain, fuel duty would remain, every Tom, Dick and Harry would get share, and the number of dead people coming back to life would go through the roof. The 10p per mile collected to would go into the red tape created by the scheme, and there would be no payouts. The "shares" would trade at 1p each, and the government would have to buy them all back, wasting more cash. Meanwhile, lots of people drive French and Belgian registered cars to get around it.
louiebaby said:
This could go either one of two ways...
Well said!- Road tax and fuel duty would be removed. We would pay for the fuel we use, the insurance for the car, and 10p per mile. Any profits after maintenance and investment would be given back to those that held on to their shares. People without a car at all would make a profit.
- Road tax would remain, fuel duty would remain, every Tom, Dick and Harry would get share, and the number of dead people coming back to life would go through the roof. The 10p per mile collected to would go into the red tape created by the scheme, and there would be no payouts. The "shares" would trade at 1p each, and the government would have to buy them all back, wasting more cash. Meanwhile, lots of people drive French and Belgian registered cars to get around it.
Just put the costs of road tax and road pricing on fuel. Far simpler, far far cheaper to administrate and far easier for the user to exercise their choice of how much they pay by deciding what car they drive, how the drive and when to drive. So petrol become £1.50/litre. That's fine for no road tax and tolls.
eps said:
"Any profits from operating the roads would then go to the shareholders: British citizens," says the report.
Does anyone believe this???
No.Does anyone believe this???
And further more this
Article said:
''They (road users) must also retain ownership of the roads, rather than seeing them sold off to private financiers."
worries me considerably. If the government sells the roads themselves to private companies to police them then we're all f
ked.the Fantom said:
Just put the costs of road tax and road pricing on fuel. Far simpler, far far cheaper to administrate and far easier for the user to exercise their choice of how much they pay by deciding what car they drive, how the drive and when to drive. So petrol become £1.50/litre. That's fine for no road tax and tolls.
It's such an easy solution. They just get more and more corrupt each day these wkers in charge. No doubt they are being lobbied to put a road pricing system in place so their not going to listen to any sound reasoning.
Scratch that, their devaluing the pound through incompetence aren't they so their thinking is that the revenue take will be down I guess. I want these corrupt Mp's to be enlisted for national service immediately, Gordon Brown should be on the front bloody line with the cheapest possible equipment.
If road pricing is introduced I would suggest that we all refuse to go to work, a justified national strike if you will, after all if we can no longer afford to use the roads then why should we?
Don't get me wrong, I realise the implications of such a desperate move would be very serious, but there comes a time when the Government has to be shown the consequences of its actions. They need to see just how quickly this Country would fall apart if the average joe can no longer afford to travel to his place of work. It is all such an unfair system, The road system existed long before I was born and housing costs, family commitments, kids in school etc etc mean that it is not always possible for people to live within walking distance of their place of work therefore many of us really have no choice. We either give up using the road system because it is to expensive but earn no money because there are no jobs in the small area within reach of where we live, or continue using the road system to travel to work, but pay through our teeth for the privilege, leaving us with virtually nothing to survive on anyway!
I know it is a cliche and that it is far far easier said than done, but we really need to take our Country back, right now we really are just cash cows being milked for all we are worth, and what for? So that in 30 years time our children can suffer even more than we are?
Great.
Don't get me wrong, I realise the implications of such a desperate move would be very serious, but there comes a time when the Government has to be shown the consequences of its actions. They need to see just how quickly this Country would fall apart if the average joe can no longer afford to travel to his place of work. It is all such an unfair system, The road system existed long before I was born and housing costs, family commitments, kids in school etc etc mean that it is not always possible for people to live within walking distance of their place of work therefore many of us really have no choice. We either give up using the road system because it is to expensive but earn no money because there are no jobs in the small area within reach of where we live, or continue using the road system to travel to work, but pay through our teeth for the privilege, leaving us with virtually nothing to survive on anyway!
I know it is a cliche and that it is far far easier said than done, but we really need to take our Country back, right now we really are just cash cows being milked for all we are worth, and what for? So that in 30 years time our children can suffer even more than we are?
Great.
It's an interesting concept; they're trying to look at a way that people can feel like they have control over their cost.
But the fact is, the only fair way to "control" or influence road usage and environmental impact (CO2, noise, congestion, etc) is to put everything related to this on the fuel, because that's the ONLY way it really reflects usage and the only way it really affects purchasing and driving behaviour: buying more economical cars, driving slower and more carefully... And I mean costing-in road maintenance, environmental technology investment, VED, "dissuasion from polluting", building cycle lanes, everything.
Say all of this puts 50p on the petrol price (currently say £1.20/litre).
Drive 5000 miles/year in a Ferrari at 10mpg? That's 1890 litres of petrol, current cost £2271; cost incl everything £3217. Cost of 'VED substitute': £950. Strong motivation (if you're an ecomentalist) to switch to something more economical, lightweight, greener...
Drive 10000 miles/year in a new Fiesta at 40mpg? 950 litres, currently £1135, future £1608. Added cost: £473. At 35mpg - bad driving, carrying crap in the boot, wilful speeding?: £1834, cost £699. Drive well and save money!
It'd work. Something that you pay once a year is an inconvenience that you forget in a week, and don't think about when you come to buy. Something you pay every day - that's going to influence behaviour.
But the fact is, the only fair way to "control" or influence road usage and environmental impact (CO2, noise, congestion, etc) is to put everything related to this on the fuel, because that's the ONLY way it really reflects usage and the only way it really affects purchasing and driving behaviour: buying more economical cars, driving slower and more carefully... And I mean costing-in road maintenance, environmental technology investment, VED, "dissuasion from polluting", building cycle lanes, everything.
Say all of this puts 50p on the petrol price (currently say £1.20/litre).
Drive 5000 miles/year in a Ferrari at 10mpg? That's 1890 litres of petrol, current cost £2271; cost incl everything £3217. Cost of 'VED substitute': £950. Strong motivation (if you're an ecomentalist) to switch to something more economical, lightweight, greener...
Drive 10000 miles/year in a new Fiesta at 40mpg? 950 litres, currently £1135, future £1608. Added cost: £473. At 35mpg - bad driving, carrying crap in the boot, wilful speeding?: £1834, cost £699. Drive well and save money!
It'd work. Something that you pay once a year is an inconvenience that you forget in a week, and don't think about when you come to buy. Something you pay every day - that's going to influence behaviour.
Gizmo! said:
But the fact is, the only fair way to "control" or influence road usage and environmental impact (CO2, noise, congestion, etc) is to put everything related to this on the fuel, because that's the ONLY way it really reflects usage and the only way it really affects purchasing and driving behaviour
The problem is what fuel. Trust me: alternative technology electric battery and fuel cell cars are coming. Soon. People WILL find them desirable because at £1.80p a litre people will not be so keen to burn petrol.Now the problem is distinguishing electricity you used to charge up your car from electricity you used to light your house - the stuff isn't red diesel.
The issue for future government will be how to collect motorists taxes at all.
Expect unpleasant and draconian measures. They know GPS won't work. So it will be ANPR based. Big brother is almost here...
Gizmo! said:
It's an interesting concept; they're trying to look at a way that people can feel like they have control over their cost.
But the fact is, the only fair way to "control" or influence road usage and environmental impact (CO2, noise, congestion, etc) is to put everything related to this on the fuel, because that's the ONLY way it really reflects usage and the only way it really affects purchasing and driving behaviour: buying more economical cars, driving slower and more carefully... And I mean costing-in road maintenance, environmental technology investment, VED, "dissuasion from polluting", building cycle lanes, everything.
Say all of this puts 50p on the petrol price (currently say £1.20/litre).
Drive 5000 miles/year in a Ferrari at 10mpg? That's 1890 litres of petrol, current cost £2271; cost incl everything £3217. Cost of 'VED substitute': £950. Strong motivation (if you're an ecomentalist) to switch to something more economical, lightweight, greener...
Drive 10000 miles/year in a new Fiesta at 40mpg? 950 litres, currently £1135, future £1608. Added cost: £473. At 35mpg - bad driving, carrying crap in the boot, wilful speeding?: £1834, cost £699. Drive well and save money!
It'd work. Something that you pay once a year is an inconvenience that you forget in a week, and don't think about when you come to buy. Something you pay every day - that's going to influence behaviour.
I just can't get my head around why an MP can't realise this.But the fact is, the only fair way to "control" or influence road usage and environmental impact (CO2, noise, congestion, etc) is to put everything related to this on the fuel, because that's the ONLY way it really reflects usage and the only way it really affects purchasing and driving behaviour: buying more economical cars, driving slower and more carefully... And I mean costing-in road maintenance, environmental technology investment, VED, "dissuasion from polluting", building cycle lanes, everything.
Say all of this puts 50p on the petrol price (currently say £1.20/litre).
Drive 5000 miles/year in a Ferrari at 10mpg? That's 1890 litres of petrol, current cost £2271; cost incl everything £3217. Cost of 'VED substitute': £950. Strong motivation (if you're an ecomentalist) to switch to something more economical, lightweight, greener...
Drive 10000 miles/year in a new Fiesta at 40mpg? 950 litres, currently £1135, future £1608. Added cost: £473. At 35mpg - bad driving, carrying crap in the boot, wilful speeding?: £1834, cost £699. Drive well and save money!
It'd work. Something that you pay once a year is an inconvenience that you forget in a week, and don't think about when you come to buy. Something you pay every day - that's going to influence behaviour.
Don said:
Gizmo! said:
But the fact is, the only fair way to "control" or influence road usage and environmental impact (CO2, noise, congestion, etc) is to put everything related to this on the fuel, because that's the ONLY way it really reflects usage and the only way it really affects purchasing and driving behaviour
The problem is what fuel. Trust me: alternative technology electric battery and fuel cell cars are coming. Soon. People WILL find them desirable because at £1.80p a litre people will not be so keen to burn petrol.Now the problem is distinguishing electricity you used to charge up your car from electricity you used to light your house - the stuff isn't red diesel.
The issue for future government will be how to collect motorists taxes at all.
Expect unpleasant and draconian measures. They know GPS won't work. So it will be ANPR based. Big brother is almost here...
I agree GPS is no-go: who will pay to put GPS senders in every car? Not ANPR - but a sort of 'son of ANPR' using RFID chips as 'non-display' number plates. They've already done functional trials, I read the report a while back.
Gizmo! said:
...
Drive 5000 miles/year in a Ferrari at 10mpg? That's 1890 litres of petrol, current cost £2271; cost incl everything £3217. Cost of 'VED substitute': £950. Strong motivation (if you're an ecomentalist) to switch to something more economical, lightweight, greener...
Drive 10000 miles/year in a new Fiesta at 40mpg? 950 litres, currently £1135, future £1608. Added cost: £473. At 35mpg - bad driving, carrying crap in the boot, wilful speeding?: £1834, cost £699. Drive well and save money!
It'd work. Something that you pay once a year is an inconvenience that you forget in a week, and don't think about when you come to buy. Something you pay every day - that's going to influence behaviour.
Considering the difference in the income of those who drives Ferrari and Fiesta something like £500 per year (£950 - £473) won't make much difference. At all. Sorry. Drive 5000 miles/year in a Ferrari at 10mpg? That's 1890 litres of petrol, current cost £2271; cost incl everything £3217. Cost of 'VED substitute': £950. Strong motivation (if you're an ecomentalist) to switch to something more economical, lightweight, greener...
Drive 10000 miles/year in a new Fiesta at 40mpg? 950 litres, currently £1135, future £1608. Added cost: £473. At 35mpg - bad driving, carrying crap in the boot, wilful speeding?: £1834, cost £699. Drive well and save money!
It'd work. Something that you pay once a year is an inconvenience that you forget in a week, and don't think about when you come to buy. Something you pay every day - that's going to influence behaviour.
I am totally against all this 'pay per mile stuff'. How is it possible that other countries can live without it and still have better roads than UK?
I personally think it is a move against our freedom of movement. They try to prevent people from using cars - well, there should be a good alternative first (like public transport)
Going ballistic - are they going to charge pedestrians for use of the pavement too? Those grannies are cracking tarmac everywhere they go
EDIT: spelling.
well, I have an exuse (bad one) - English is not my native language 
Edited by Denorth on Monday 12th April 14:39
"At 10p per mile - similar to charges in continental Europe"
That line implies that every country in mainland Europe has a cost/mile charge. It doesn't. In Germany, there are no tolls that I know of and Austria just seems to charge a toll for the long tunnels, which seems fair enough. Us UK motorists already pay billions in tax for motoring and now they want more. Well, I think they need to get it back off the banks and cut benefits to those lazy arses who just sit & watch Sky all day whilst smoking & drinking.
That line implies that every country in mainland Europe has a cost/mile charge. It doesn't. In Germany, there are no tolls that I know of and Austria just seems to charge a toll for the long tunnels, which seems fair enough. Us UK motorists already pay billions in tax for motoring and now they want more. Well, I think they need to get it back off the banks and cut benefits to those lazy arses who just sit & watch Sky all day whilst smoking & drinking.
Who was the dick who thought up the term 'Think-tank'?
Perhaps he (she?) was staring into a fish tank thinking?
Personally, I'd rather have them all staring down the barrel of
The SMF is, of course, one.
Their slogan is 'marrying markets and social justice'...
Pah!
How much did they get paid to produce this?
Whose money do they use to produce these reports?
I'd start at a different point.
Save money? probably quite a lot.
Get rid of 'all' the 'think-tanks'.
Perhaps he (she?) was staring into a fish tank thinking?
Personally, I'd rather have them all staring down the barrel of
The SMF is, of course, one.
Their slogan is 'marrying markets and social justice'...
Pah!
How much did they get paid to produce this?
Whose money do they use to produce these reports?
I'd start at a different point.
Save money? probably quite a lot.
Get rid of 'all' the 'think-tanks'.
LewisR said:
"At 10p per mile - similar to charges in continental Europe"
That line implies that every country in mainland Europe has a cost/mile charge. It doesn't. In Germany, there are no tolls that I know of and Austria just seems to charge a toll for the long tunnels, which seems fair enough. Us UK motorists already pay billions in tax for motoring and now they want more. Well, I think they need to get it back off the banks and cut benefits to those lazy arses who just sit & watch Sky all day whilst smoking & drinking.
Personal experience - driving in Scandinavia, Germany, Spain.That line implies that every country in mainland Europe has a cost/mile charge. It doesn't. In Germany, there are no tolls that I know of and Austria just seems to charge a toll for the long tunnels, which seems fair enough. Us UK motorists already pay billions in tax for motoring and now they want more. Well, I think they need to get it back off the banks and cut benefits to those lazy arses who just sit & watch Sky all day whilst smoking & drinking.
From my memory only some tunnels and bridges had tolls in Scandinavia and Germany.
And I think we are taxed close to those Scandinavian guys. Not to mention a quality of life.
In Spain - there were tolls but I was told that there was always a free route as well but not very pleasant to drive. Can be wrong on this one.
This is the fact - Not every country in Europe has tolls
soad said:
Denorth said:
I am totally against all thise 'pay per mile stuff'.
Not a big fan of it myself either. Why should two people that drive the same make and model of car pay the same amount of road tax when one drives 30,000 miles a year and one drives 1000 miles a year?
Surely, the high mileage driver is degrading the roads more and creating more pollution? He therefore should pay a greater contribution.
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