Shall i get rid of my 997 C2S for a E92 M3 DCT ???
Discussion
Hi all,
been fiddling with the idea for a while now.. when i bought the porker I had also tried the M3 too.. but decided to go for the other one..
Now the temptation is back, I do use it as a daily driver and manual gearbox of the 997 can get tiresome.. hence the DCT popping up to mind.. test-drove it again couple of weeks ago, liked it.. although it does feel less special than mine.. a bit less involving (quieter, which can be a good thing, less mechanical, driving position a LOT higher than mine..).
On plus side there's the gearbox which I found quite pleasant on the test-drive, more comfort for long journeys, a lot more toys to play with and to make your life better..
On the budget side I think the Beemer has a lot of depreciation left as it would be a 1yr car.. mine is a 4yr which should represent less pain in the next 1/2yrs..
Any others that have experience the same torment ? Any thoughts, have to make up my mind in the next 24hrs..
R
been fiddling with the idea for a while now.. when i bought the porker I had also tried the M3 too.. but decided to go for the other one..
Now the temptation is back, I do use it as a daily driver and manual gearbox of the 997 can get tiresome.. hence the DCT popping up to mind.. test-drove it again couple of weeks ago, liked it.. although it does feel less special than mine.. a bit less involving (quieter, which can be a good thing, less mechanical, driving position a LOT higher than mine..).
On plus side there's the gearbox which I found quite pleasant on the test-drive, more comfort for long journeys, a lot more toys to play with and to make your life better..
On the budget side I think the Beemer has a lot of depreciation left as it would be a 1yr car.. mine is a 4yr which should represent less pain in the next 1/2yrs..
Any others that have experience the same torment ? Any thoughts, have to make up my mind in the next 24hrs..
R
This is a decision which you will take with your heart, not your reason. Here are some very personal thoughts from an M3 DCT owner, with experience of the 997.
I am surprised you mention the M3 is quieter; it is certainly quieter and more relaxing at speed and hence better for long trips, but if anything I think there is more - superb - engine noise in the mid-range.
I think the M3 is a fraction quicker. and equipment. The Porsche feels better - particularly the steering. The M3 uses more fuel, and has a similarly stupid small tank.
There is no doubt the M3 is better value - no doubt you would be considering a Gen 2 997 if you could get into one for the same money.
The Porsche is immediately recognised as a bit special; the M3 is not. That could be good or bad depending on what you like.
For me, the bottom line (and why I have the M3) is that the M3 has far better comfort and convenience than the Porsche, while being as good to drive.
I am surprised you mention the M3 is quieter; it is certainly quieter and more relaxing at speed and hence better for long trips, but if anything I think there is more - superb - engine noise in the mid-range.
I think the M3 is a fraction quicker. and equipment. The Porsche feels better - particularly the steering. The M3 uses more fuel, and has a similarly stupid small tank.
There is no doubt the M3 is better value - no doubt you would be considering a Gen 2 997 if you could get into one for the same money.
The Porsche is immediately recognised as a bit special; the M3 is not. That could be good or bad depending on what you like.
For me, the bottom line (and why I have the M3) is that the M3 has far better comfort and convenience than the Porsche, while being as good to drive.
Of course many considerations that will affect the decision around your needs, but some of my observations based on running a 997scab and M3 saloon side by side for the past year. Both my cars are manual.
I agree with Waremark comments on the performance and economy - M3 is slightly quicker in a straight line and uses slightly more fuel - but based on the same driving style for both cars my experience is there is little in it.
I think the 997 is a more special experience but considering the price when new is about 50% more than the M3, it should be.
I don't agree with the comments on comfort though. Both cars run 19's and I have PASM and EDC. My experience is the 997 has a more compliant and comfortable ride than the M3 - doesn't mean the 997 is more relaxing as it is more noisy (although a cab) - but I can't understand those who say the M3 has a comfortable ride - I'd be interested in what the comparisons are. I run the PASM on the soft setting 98% of the time and EDC on soft setting about 90% of the time.
I agree with Waremark comments on the performance and economy - M3 is slightly quicker in a straight line and uses slightly more fuel - but based on the same driving style for both cars my experience is there is little in it.
I think the 997 is a more special experience but considering the price when new is about 50% more than the M3, it should be.
I don't agree with the comments on comfort though. Both cars run 19's and I have PASM and EDC. My experience is the 997 has a more compliant and comfortable ride than the M3 - doesn't mean the 997 is more relaxing as it is more noisy (although a cab) - but I can't understand those who say the M3 has a comfortable ride - I'd be interested in what the comparisons are. I run the PASM on the soft setting 98% of the time and EDC on soft setting about 90% of the time.
Thanks for the comments..
re quiter cabin.. test-drove the m3 today again and does certainly feel quieter for general tire noise, probably not for engine one.. it is one of the aspects of my 997 which i regret the most.. hence the desire of fitting a PSE.. but at 2.6k gbp it seems at tad excessive to get the real porsche sound
as for the compliant rise, i just tested the m3 with 19' and edc and it did feel more comfortable.. but then again, difficult to judge on a (although very decent) test-drive. maybe it becomes subjective and you "want" to feel it quieter.
consumption not a huge issue for me.. i do at worst 9k/year.. so not too much of a concern there.
tomorrow i will see another m3.. let's see if the heart goes with it or not..
will let you know
re quiter cabin.. test-drove the m3 today again and does certainly feel quieter for general tire noise, probably not for engine one.. it is one of the aspects of my 997 which i regret the most.. hence the desire of fitting a PSE.. but at 2.6k gbp it seems at tad excessive to get the real porsche sound
as for the compliant rise, i just tested the m3 with 19' and edc and it did feel more comfortable.. but then again, difficult to judge on a (although very decent) test-drive. maybe it becomes subjective and you "want" to feel it quieter.
consumption not a huge issue for me.. i do at worst 9k/year.. so not too much of a concern there.
tomorrow i will see another m3.. let's see if the heart goes with it or not..
will let you know
pjv997 said:
I don't agree with the comments on comfort though. Both cars run 19's and I have PASM and EDC. My experience is the 997 has a more compliant and comfortable ride than the M3 - doesn't mean the 997 is more relaxing as it is more noisy (although a cab) - but I can't understand those who say the M3 has a comfortable ride - I'd be interested in what the comparisons are. I run the PASM on the soft setting 98% of the time and EDC on soft setting about 90% of the time.
I know I said the M3 was much better for comfort and convenience; but I guess I was thinking mostly about space. Actually I agree the Porsche ride is (to me, surprisingly) more compliant. My M3 Coupe is on 18's with EDC, and I run it mostly with the dampers on comfort; I find the ride quite decent, but the 997 is even better.It depends on your budget?
A 2008 M3 with auto box is prob £40k? It will lose a fair bit of money over the next 3 years. If you buy a 997S for around 35-40k you'll prob lose a similar amount in depreciation over the next 3 years?
I know you have a 997 already; I question I put forward is if a buyer is looking at both cars from fresh.
To the OP: How bad do you want the M3 and can you stomach the depreciation on the car? How badly do you want to sell the 997?
A 2008 M3 with auto box is prob £40k? It will lose a fair bit of money over the next 3 years. If you buy a 997S for around 35-40k you'll prob lose a similar amount in depreciation over the next 3 years?
I know you have a 997 already; I question I put forward is if a buyer is looking at both cars from fresh.
To the OP: How bad do you want the M3 and can you stomach the depreciation on the car? How badly do you want to sell the 997?
Edited by Lostprophet on Thursday 15th April 14:09
Lostprophet said:
It depends on your budget?
A 2008 M3 with auto box is prob £40k? It will lose a fair bit of money over the next 3 years. If you buy a 997S for around 35-40k you'll prob lose a similar amount in depreciation over the next 3 years?
I know you have a 997 already; I question I put forward is if a buyer is looking at both cars from fresh.
If you are considering owning the car for 3 years, IMHO I thing the M3 will lose more. All you need to do is browse the classifieds to see that even the 996's fetch £20k where as the E46 M3 can be had for much less.A 2008 M3 with auto box is prob £40k? It will lose a fair bit of money over the next 3 years. If you buy a 997S for around 35-40k you'll prob lose a similar amount in depreciation over the next 3 years?
I know you have a 997 already; I question I put forward is if a buyer is looking at both cars from fresh.
Edited by Lostprophet on Thursday 15th April 14:07
I'd say the M3 was a better all round car, and yes, I've had a 911.
gilford said:
Lostprophet said:
It depends on your budget?
A 2008 M3 with auto box is prob £40k? It will lose a fair bit of money over the next 3 years. If you buy a 997S for around 35-40k you'll prob lose a similar amount in depreciation over the next 3 years?
I know you have a 997 already; I question I put forward is if a buyer is looking at both cars from fresh.
If you are considering owning the car for 3 years, IMHO I thing the M3 will lose more. All you need to do is browse the classifieds to see that even the 996's fetch £20k where as the E46 M3 can be had for much less.A 2008 M3 with auto box is prob £40k? It will lose a fair bit of money over the next 3 years. If you buy a 997S for around 35-40k you'll prob lose a similar amount in depreciation over the next 3 years?
I know you have a 997 already; I question I put forward is if a buyer is looking at both cars from fresh.
Edited by Lostprophet on Thursday 15th April 14:07
I'd say the M3 was a better all round car, and yes, I've had a 911.
Lostprophet said:
gilford said:
Lostprophet said:
It depends on your budget?
A 2008 M3 with auto box is prob £40k? It will lose a fair bit of money over the next 3 years. If you buy a 997S for around 35-40k you'll prob lose a similar amount in depreciation over the next 3 years?
I know you have a 997 already; I question I put forward is if a buyer is looking at both cars from fresh.
If you are considering owning the car for 3 years, IMHO I thing the M3 will lose more. All you need to do is browse the classifieds to see that even the 996's fetch £20k where as the E46 M3 can be had for much less.A 2008 M3 with auto box is prob £40k? It will lose a fair bit of money over the next 3 years. If you buy a 997S for around 35-40k you'll prob lose a similar amount in depreciation over the next 3 years?
I know you have a 997 already; I question I put forward is if a buyer is looking at both cars from fresh.
Edited by Lostprophet on Thursday 15th April 14:07
I'd say the M3 was a better all round car, and yes, I've had a 911.
Service costs and consumables alone are cheaper for the M3. That, coupled with the stringent warranty Porsche now have to adhere to make it a no brain option in my eyes........
gilford said:
Lostprophet said:
gilford said:
Lostprophet said:
It depends on your budget?
A 2008 M3 with auto box is prob £40k? It will lose a fair bit of money over the next 3 years. If you buy a 997S for around 35-40k you'll prob lose a similar amount in depreciation over the next 3 years?
I know you have a 997 already; I question I put forward is if a buyer is looking at both cars from fresh.
If you are considering owning the car for 3 years, IMHO I thing the M3 will lose more. All you need to do is browse the classifieds to see that even the 996's fetch £20k where as the E46 M3 can be had for much less.A 2008 M3 with auto box is prob £40k? It will lose a fair bit of money over the next 3 years. If you buy a 997S for around 35-40k you'll prob lose a similar amount in depreciation over the next 3 years?
I know you have a 997 already; I question I put forward is if a buyer is looking at both cars from fresh.
Edited by Lostprophet on Thursday 15th April 14:07
I'd say the M3 was a better all round car, and yes, I've had a 911.
Service costs and consumables alone are cheaper for the M3. That, coupled with the stringent warranty Porsche now have to adhere to make it a no brain option in my eyes........
Do your sums and the cars cost the same to run and own.
Keep in mind for £35k your M3 will be a 2007/8 and the Porsche will be 2005/6. A older car.
tough choice.
Edited by Lostprophet on Thursday 15th April 15:33
I have posted elsewhere my all in running costs exc insurance and petrol for my 997 as being less than £3,000 for five years and 30,000 miles.
Based on the first year of M3 ownership, I think the running costs of the M3 will be higher.
I think the difference in cost of ownership will be depreciation which for an equivalent value car will be much worse for an M3 and I cannot conceive how running costs will offset that, even allowing for the 997 being several years older.
Based on the first year of M3 ownership, I think the running costs of the M3 will be higher.
I think the difference in cost of ownership will be depreciation which for an equivalent value car will be much worse for an M3 and I cannot conceive how running costs will offset that, even allowing for the 997 being several years older.
Edited by pjv997 on Thursday 15th April 21:59
I absolutely agree the M3 represents more bang for buck if you are comparing new vs new, but my understanding is that the OP is considering the merits of keeping his 4 year old 997 vs a 1 year old M3 - then the depreciation dynamic changes dramatically.
I was trying to counter the point that a 997 is going to be more costly to run than an M car. My personal experience is that is not the case, the running costs will be about the same.
I was trying to counter the point that a 997 is going to be more costly to run than an M car. My personal experience is that is not the case, the running costs will be about the same.
gilford said:
The 997 costs more than the M3 new though, and both lose circa 50% in the first 3 years?
Bang for buck the M3 wins in my opinion, there isn't much you can throw at it and it fail to do, I had my bike in mine last week!
The 997 takes 4-5 years to drop to 50% where as the M3 will takes 3 years.Bang for buck the M3 wins in my opinion, there isn't much you can throw at it and it fail to do, I had my bike in mine last week!
997 requires warranties! Approx £1.2k pa.997 are to my understanding known for weak engines; need replacing at approx at a cost of £10k!!! On a new BMW M3 you have BMW warranty coverage. I suppose thats why I was saying lower depreciation on a 997 but higher costs of ownership will offset against the high deprn of an M3 and lower costs!
Edited by Lostprophet on Friday 16th April 11:03
gilford said:
This is true also, the warranty on an M3 is £700 a year, and it doesn't require an inspection! When I wanted to renew the warranty on my 911 I was told the wiper blades needed to be stock OEM!
Forget OPC; they are plain silly.It is probabily best if you get an indi warranty; only issue is if the engine goes pop will they replace it?
Bigfish; another PH user had his engine pop and i followed his story quite closely. It sounded really badQ! Not saying BMW are are any better. But as an experience from OPc it was so sad to read.
Some 997 owners love their cars; others hate them. Prob a 80:20 split. It's a shame the Gen 1 997 is not as solid as it should be.
M3 (1 year old) Vs 911 (vs 4 years old). Costs are prob like for like; costs includes deprn and service and warranty.
what would you prefer to drive? An 997 or an M3?
Wow, thanks for all the replies..
Ok, my 997 C2S from Dec 2005 is worth ard 34k (trade-in) to 38k (private). Dealer would sell it @ 42k. M3 DCT with right spec (read 09MY) is ard 43k from dealer, pretty much no privates ard.
So at the moment i am looking at a top up of 8-9k to switch. Factor into that M3 has 2 yrs warranty, porsche would need warranty added as engine is indeed risky item, so that is another 2k (6months wrty remaining on mine). Not to mention you can't touch the car if you want the OPC warranty, no bluetooth, no ipod, no hardwired speedcamera detector.. nothing ! Not to mention potential expenses in coming 2 years, brakes most certainly will need replacing, potentially clutch at one point.. basically the usual stuff..
but overall in terms of depreciation, think the m3 will be worst than the m3 no questions about that..
Test drove the m3 yest, does feel like a all new car, all the gizmos in the world, gearbox found amazing, no issues with the 2nd gear lag mentioned around in the forum, very sharp on upshifts (almost too much so, wheelspin in 2nd-3rd switch on full accelleration on perfectly dry and warm tarmac...). Sometimes downshift do very slightly affect balance of the car even with auto-throttle-blipping, guess you have to get used to it..
Feels quite sharp, bigger yes, but quite agile, steering less feelsome. Brakes couldn't really tell as even on country road i couldn't bring myself to make the salesman sick in my potential new car.
So very tough decision, but i am getting there. It is nowhere near the 911 in terms of image, but overall better rounded car, no doubt. Maybe worth taking the punt waiting for the new 998 ?
Ok, my 997 C2S from Dec 2005 is worth ard 34k (trade-in) to 38k (private). Dealer would sell it @ 42k. M3 DCT with right spec (read 09MY) is ard 43k from dealer, pretty much no privates ard.
So at the moment i am looking at a top up of 8-9k to switch. Factor into that M3 has 2 yrs warranty, porsche would need warranty added as engine is indeed risky item, so that is another 2k (6months wrty remaining on mine). Not to mention you can't touch the car if you want the OPC warranty, no bluetooth, no ipod, no hardwired speedcamera detector.. nothing ! Not to mention potential expenses in coming 2 years, brakes most certainly will need replacing, potentially clutch at one point.. basically the usual stuff..
but overall in terms of depreciation, think the m3 will be worst than the m3 no questions about that..
Test drove the m3 yest, does feel like a all new car, all the gizmos in the world, gearbox found amazing, no issues with the 2nd gear lag mentioned around in the forum, very sharp on upshifts (almost too much so, wheelspin in 2nd-3rd switch on full accelleration on perfectly dry and warm tarmac...). Sometimes downshift do very slightly affect balance of the car even with auto-throttle-blipping, guess you have to get used to it..
Feels quite sharp, bigger yes, but quite agile, steering less feelsome. Brakes couldn't really tell as even on country road i couldn't bring myself to make the salesman sick in my potential new car.
So very tough decision, but i am getting there. It is nowhere near the 911 in terms of image, but overall better rounded car, no doubt. Maybe worth taking the punt waiting for the new 998 ?
rosino said:
Wow, thanks for all the replies..
Ok, my 997 C2S from Dec 2005 is worth ard 34k (trade-in) to 38k (private). Dealer would sell it @ 42k. M3 DCT with right spec (read 09MY) is ard 43k from dealer, pretty much no privates ard.
So at the moment i am looking at a top up of 8-9k to switch. Factor into that M3 has 2 yrs warranty, porsche would need warranty added as engine is indeed risky item, so that is another 2k (6months wrty remaining on mine). Not to mention you can't touch the car if you want the OPC warranty, no bluetooth, no ipod, no hardwired speedcamera detector.. nothing ! Not to mention potential expenses in coming 2 years, brakes most certainly will need replacing, potentially clutch at one point.. basically the usual stuff..
but overall in terms of depreciation, think the m3 will be worst than the m3 no questions about that..
Test drove the m3 yest, does feel like a all new car, all the gizmos in the world, gearbox found amazing, no issues with the 2nd gear lag mentioned around in the forum, very sharp on upshifts (almost too much so, wheelspin in 2nd-3rd switch on full accelleration on perfectly dry and warm tarmac...). Sometimes downshift do very slightly affect balance of the car even with auto-throttle-blipping, guess you have to get used to it..
Feels quite sharp, bigger yes, but quite agile, steering less feelsome. Brakes couldn't really tell as even on country road i couldn't bring myself to make the salesman sick in my potential new car.
So very tough decision, but i am getting there. It is nowhere near the 911 in terms of image, but overall better rounded car, no doubt. Maybe worth taking the punt waiting for the new 998 ?
RS4? for 40k you'll be able to get the best of the crop! Indeed it has suspension issues but it is covered under Audi warranty!Ok, my 997 C2S from Dec 2005 is worth ard 34k (trade-in) to 38k (private). Dealer would sell it @ 42k. M3 DCT with right spec (read 09MY) is ard 43k from dealer, pretty much no privates ard.
So at the moment i am looking at a top up of 8-9k to switch. Factor into that M3 has 2 yrs warranty, porsche would need warranty added as engine is indeed risky item, so that is another 2k (6months wrty remaining on mine). Not to mention you can't touch the car if you want the OPC warranty, no bluetooth, no ipod, no hardwired speedcamera detector.. nothing ! Not to mention potential expenses in coming 2 years, brakes most certainly will need replacing, potentially clutch at one point.. basically the usual stuff..
but overall in terms of depreciation, think the m3 will be worst than the m3 no questions about that..
Test drove the m3 yest, does feel like a all new car, all the gizmos in the world, gearbox found amazing, no issues with the 2nd gear lag mentioned around in the forum, very sharp on upshifts (almost too much so, wheelspin in 2nd-3rd switch on full accelleration on perfectly dry and warm tarmac...). Sometimes downshift do very slightly affect balance of the car even with auto-throttle-blipping, guess you have to get used to it..
Feels quite sharp, bigger yes, but quite agile, steering less feelsome. Brakes couldn't really tell as even on country road i couldn't bring myself to make the salesman sick in my potential new car.
So very tough decision, but i am getting there. It is nowhere near the 911 in terms of image, but overall better rounded car, no doubt. Maybe worth taking the punt waiting for the new 998 ?
i was thinking a bit like you; budget is lower at 35k. I have considered the following cars:
335i/d coupe
RS4 Cab
997S
TTS/RS
X5 3.0d
X6 3.5d
VW Scr. R.
M3 coupe
I think its going to be the RS4 for me at the end of this year. Still debating everytime I see a thread like this.
My concern with your car is the running cost; you will incur a lot of potential bills. M3 should be hassle free hopefully! If you can stomach the deprecn on the M3 and you want it so much go for it. It's not special; in a few years there will be plenty of M3s around. 997 is still a lovely car even if 4-6 years old. Forget the brand though; where does your hear lay on the matter? And mind...
Mate, its a hard choice even just thinking about it. from a petrolheads' point of view, everyone would want to own a porsche 911 (not boxter or cayman) at some point in their life and since you have already had that experience already, I would definitely tell you not to hesitate getting the E92 M3 for a different yet equally satisfying experience. You can't exactly say swapping a 6 cylinder porsche for a V8 M3 as a backward step. This is without mentioning that this M3 is going to be final M car with a naturally aspirated engine. I initially considered getting either the E92 M3 (value for money) or a 997 C2S (because its a proper porsche) before I realised the actual cost of running one is so high, i flipped and got myself a bargain Z4MR instead. but since you are already capable of maintaining running cost of a C2S, i can't see why maintaining the m3 would be anymore expensive for you. Go get it mate!!
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