you deciede. m3 v rs4
Discussion
I test drove both recently (E46 M3 that is, and a 2007 RS4). For a quick in the bar argument, I'd say 90% of people would choose the RS4, but those willing to compromise on everything else on the car to get the driving experience should go for the M3.
For when you get home and have a spare ten minutes, my reviews were as follows:
For when you get home and have a spare ten minutes, my reviews were as follows:
Rob's E46 M3 Review said:
I've just returned from a test drive in an E46 M3. Sadly, we weren't able to find many twisty roads but I've got a fairly good opinion of the car from the mixture of A and B roads we tried it on. I suppose the inevitable, but useful, comparison is with the fastest non-M E46, the 330ci, so this is where I'll start.
I had heard tales of the E46 330ci being "almost an M3", which seemed curious to me given the long list of changes for the M3 (85% of components apparently) and huge mileage around the ring to hone the chassis. Certainly at rest and even when pulling away to amble through town, the M3 seems very similar to the 330ci. It is quite and comfortable, with similar steering and gearchange, and even fairly comfortable suspension, although these three things do feel slightly more performance orientated, they are not overly so and I expect the average driver would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the cars. Opening the car up on a twisty road reveals the most memorable part of the M3, the engine. A distinctive raspy induction noise leads the smooth straight six sound, which has changed from the muted wail in the 330ci to a hard edged bark in the M3. Again though, other than the substantial acceleration (231bhp in the 330ci has become 338bhp!), there felt to be no real sense of division between the 330ci and the M3. Through the first few corners I can feel that the suspension has clearly been worked on considerably, although this M3 is a master of disguise, and whatever's going on down there has strangely been very well hidden from the driver. The steering too feels not much different from the 330ci, although being so light and low on feel it is now a little out of sorts in such a high performance car. When leaving corners a big difference between the two cars emerges, the M3's mechanical limited slip differential giving a far more natural feel to the 330ci's rather messy method of using the rear brakes to limit wheel slip under power (the 330ci would benefit greatly from just having an ordinary diff with fully switchable DSC in my opinion). The throttle response has been greatly improved in the M3. Early 330cis in particular suffered from laughably bad throttle response due to the newly introduced drive by wire system, and the M3 eliminates this, although in doing so introduces an alarmingly sharp response which doesn't lend itself to a very fluid drive. There is a sport button, but as is usually the case with these buttons I expect someone worked out the optimum throttle response and then softened it for the non sport mode and sharpened it for the sport mode, and I'm left disliking both and wishing for that middle ground.
So what about the M3 as a performance car in its own right? It's certainly immensley capable, and I don't doubt the Nurburgring lap times or performance figures. However, I feel that it hides too much from the driver to be called a true performance car, it truly is a master of disguise. I feel far more at one with my Z4 Coupé, which although not as fast, involves me more in a drive, which on the public road with speed limits as they are, is what I want.
I had heard tales of the E46 330ci being "almost an M3", which seemed curious to me given the long list of changes for the M3 (85% of components apparently) and huge mileage around the ring to hone the chassis. Certainly at rest and even when pulling away to amble through town, the M3 seems very similar to the 330ci. It is quite and comfortable, with similar steering and gearchange, and even fairly comfortable suspension, although these three things do feel slightly more performance orientated, they are not overly so and I expect the average driver would be hard pressed to tell the difference between the cars. Opening the car up on a twisty road reveals the most memorable part of the M3, the engine. A distinctive raspy induction noise leads the smooth straight six sound, which has changed from the muted wail in the 330ci to a hard edged bark in the M3. Again though, other than the substantial acceleration (231bhp in the 330ci has become 338bhp!), there felt to be no real sense of division between the 330ci and the M3. Through the first few corners I can feel that the suspension has clearly been worked on considerably, although this M3 is a master of disguise, and whatever's going on down there has strangely been very well hidden from the driver. The steering too feels not much different from the 330ci, although being so light and low on feel it is now a little out of sorts in such a high performance car. When leaving corners a big difference between the two cars emerges, the M3's mechanical limited slip differential giving a far more natural feel to the 330ci's rather messy method of using the rear brakes to limit wheel slip under power (the 330ci would benefit greatly from just having an ordinary diff with fully switchable DSC in my opinion). The throttle response has been greatly improved in the M3. Early 330cis in particular suffered from laughably bad throttle response due to the newly introduced drive by wire system, and the M3 eliminates this, although in doing so introduces an alarmingly sharp response which doesn't lend itself to a very fluid drive. There is a sport button, but as is usually the case with these buttons I expect someone worked out the optimum throttle response and then softened it for the non sport mode and sharpened it for the sport mode, and I'm left disliking both and wishing for that middle ground.
So what about the M3 as a performance car in its own right? It's certainly immensley capable, and I don't doubt the Nurburgring lap times or performance figures. However, I feel that it hides too much from the driver to be called a true performance car, it truly is a master of disguise. I feel far more at one with my Z4 Coupé, which although not as fast, involves me more in a drive, which on the public road with speed limits as they are, is what I want.
Rob's 2007 RS4 Review said:
What sort of fast do you want? Screaming six with rear drive or bellowing eight with four wheel drive? Audi and BMW have always had the answer, with their M3 and RS4 models, cunningly kept half a cycle out of sync, with the last generation M3 being released in 2001, and the RS4 following in 2006.
Climbing into the 2007 RS4, the first thing that struck me was, as expected, the quality of the interior. For comfort, quality and ambience, Audi make the last generation BMWs look like a rush job school project. Everything in the Audi has a solid tactile feel to it, whereas the BMW feels, well, rather old fashioned. The seat and steering wheel in the Audi have just enough adjustment to get comfortable, and in this respect it's very similar to the M3. Of course, with the model line-ups out of sync, BMW have now matched Audi's interior design with their latest M3, but back in 2006 when the RS4 was released the interior would have won over buyers instantly.
Pulling away from rest and the weighting of the controls felt excellent. There was none of the unmatched weighting of the contemporary E46 M3, although BMW have now sorted this with their latest model, so again, Audi and BMW may be out of sync, but with Audi playing the following hand they trump BMW every time. One thing that the Audi does avoid even compared with a new BMW is the clumsiness of controls that modern BMWs have. I wasn't overly aware of a clutch delay valve in the RS4, whereas in a modern BMW it'll have you permanently frustrated as you bunny hop between gears. The throttle in the Audi, also, is delay free. BMW have always struggled with drive by wire throttles, either making them laggy and annoying (as with all non M models since 2000), or jumpy and hyperactive (M models on sport mode). The Audi's throttle is as close to a cable as you're going to get these days, and on that respect the car scores well. BMW - get your act together!! Obviously on a car like this, when operating the brake and throttle together for heel and toe there is no throttle cut-out, which is unsurprising but nevertheless a relief after hearing horror stories about other VAG products which apparently do this. The RS4's brake pedal has thankfully lost the ridiculous sensitivity of other Audis that I've driven, which makes heel and toe and progressive braking feel natural, and the steering too seems to have been given some life and feel compared with other Audi products, and is the equal of a modern non-M BMW with an electric rack (although that's not saying much actually).
So, it's all good so far then, the Audi is the clear winner in the "get in and drive through town" test. What about that engine? It's a 4.2 litre V8 and has a typically lovely V8 hushed balance at a cruise, and a satisfying bellow when worked hard, although it sounds a little muted for my liking. Isn't this an "R" S4, not just an S4? There's an "S" button which improves engine note, so I pressed it to hear the roar, only to realise it was already on! The BMW wins the sound test then. Another thing is the power output of the Audi; I don't doubt the considerably power that the V8 produces (415bhp), but somewhere in that 4WD driveline there must be considerable mechanical losses, because in a straight line the Audi feels (and is) slower than the 338bhp six cylinder 3.2 litre M3. Ok, the RS4 is fast enough for public roads in the UK, but I'd expect more for the circa 15-25mpg that is apparently realistic in daily driving (it doesn't feel much quicker than my Z4C, which returns nearly 40mpg if you're careful, and 25-30 average).
Our test route contained both wet and dry roads so provided an excellent opportunity to test the 4WD system. As with any Audi, the basic balance is understeer, although a 60:40 split rear:front sees the back squat and provide some rear led drive leaving corners hard on the power. I would describe the handling of the RS4 as impressively efficient and tidy up to 8 tenths, but beyond that it'll leave you bored and frustrated; as with most 4WD cars the only way to have fun is to get aggressive with the car on turn-in, which is not safe on the public roads and even on a race track usually resolves into understeer soon afterwards. This can be changed with setup tweaks, as Mitsubishi's Evo range proves, but I get the feeling that the Audi is tuned for accountants, not wannabe rally drivers.
So, what are my lasting impressions after my first drive of a fast Audi? For 90% of people the decision should be easy between this and the M3: buy the Audi. The Audi has a better interior, nicer controls, a nicer feel about it and more reserved grown up looks. The performance may disappoint for all the weight that the big V8 adds to the car and your running costs, but most of the time on crowded UK roads this may not matter. Where the BMW scores is on those days where the sun's out (or in my case also when it's wet and slippery!), you've got an open road and you want to just *drive*. If I was in the Audi I probably wouldn't bother, and I'd just chuck another Sade CD on (apparently every Audi comes with the full back catalogue these days). If I was in the BMW, I'd hit the Sport button and a big grin would appear on my face.
So which would I buy? Back in 2005 it would have been a tough call. For most of my driving the Audi is better, but then again so would a 1.9Tdi version. For the remainder of my driving the rear drive sonorous and faster BMW E46 M3 is far better, but I'd would be wondering where my money went because the BMW is inferior in every other respect. It really is a tough call to name a winner for this test. Personally, I don't think I could bring myself to spend serious money on the rather ordinary Audi, but equally if I'm spending that sort of money I don't want the interior quality and numb feel of the BMW. If we remove image from the equation, I expect most everyday people not that interested in driving would buy the Audi; but then again do those sorts of people spend this sort of money on a high performance car? Perhaps a businessman who has lots of money and just wants something fast? I expect that's who the RS4 is aimed at. I'm not so sure which I'd go for, and the honest answer is that I don't think either car is worth my money. I'm just waiting for someone to build a car like my BMW Z4C with greater practicality - a car that like the Audi has a high quality interior, provides comfort and quiet, but when an open road presents itself you want to drive it and enjoy it. I think that car may be the new BMW M3 (BMW's answer to this Audi), but of course being so much newer that would demand £50k, which I don't have right now!
It's never simple! :-)
Climbing into the 2007 RS4, the first thing that struck me was, as expected, the quality of the interior. For comfort, quality and ambience, Audi make the last generation BMWs look like a rush job school project. Everything in the Audi has a solid tactile feel to it, whereas the BMW feels, well, rather old fashioned. The seat and steering wheel in the Audi have just enough adjustment to get comfortable, and in this respect it's very similar to the M3. Of course, with the model line-ups out of sync, BMW have now matched Audi's interior design with their latest M3, but back in 2006 when the RS4 was released the interior would have won over buyers instantly.
Pulling away from rest and the weighting of the controls felt excellent. There was none of the unmatched weighting of the contemporary E46 M3, although BMW have now sorted this with their latest model, so again, Audi and BMW may be out of sync, but with Audi playing the following hand they trump BMW every time. One thing that the Audi does avoid even compared with a new BMW is the clumsiness of controls that modern BMWs have. I wasn't overly aware of a clutch delay valve in the RS4, whereas in a modern BMW it'll have you permanently frustrated as you bunny hop between gears. The throttle in the Audi, also, is delay free. BMW have always struggled with drive by wire throttles, either making them laggy and annoying (as with all non M models since 2000), or jumpy and hyperactive (M models on sport mode). The Audi's throttle is as close to a cable as you're going to get these days, and on that respect the car scores well. BMW - get your act together!! Obviously on a car like this, when operating the brake and throttle together for heel and toe there is no throttle cut-out, which is unsurprising but nevertheless a relief after hearing horror stories about other VAG products which apparently do this. The RS4's brake pedal has thankfully lost the ridiculous sensitivity of other Audis that I've driven, which makes heel and toe and progressive braking feel natural, and the steering too seems to have been given some life and feel compared with other Audi products, and is the equal of a modern non-M BMW with an electric rack (although that's not saying much actually).
So, it's all good so far then, the Audi is the clear winner in the "get in and drive through town" test. What about that engine? It's a 4.2 litre V8 and has a typically lovely V8 hushed balance at a cruise, and a satisfying bellow when worked hard, although it sounds a little muted for my liking. Isn't this an "R" S4, not just an S4? There's an "S" button which improves engine note, so I pressed it to hear the roar, only to realise it was already on! The BMW wins the sound test then. Another thing is the power output of the Audi; I don't doubt the considerably power that the V8 produces (415bhp), but somewhere in that 4WD driveline there must be considerable mechanical losses, because in a straight line the Audi feels (and is) slower than the 338bhp six cylinder 3.2 litre M3. Ok, the RS4 is fast enough for public roads in the UK, but I'd expect more for the circa 15-25mpg that is apparently realistic in daily driving (it doesn't feel much quicker than my Z4C, which returns nearly 40mpg if you're careful, and 25-30 average).
Our test route contained both wet and dry roads so provided an excellent opportunity to test the 4WD system. As with any Audi, the basic balance is understeer, although a 60:40 split rear:front sees the back squat and provide some rear led drive leaving corners hard on the power. I would describe the handling of the RS4 as impressively efficient and tidy up to 8 tenths, but beyond that it'll leave you bored and frustrated; as with most 4WD cars the only way to have fun is to get aggressive with the car on turn-in, which is not safe on the public roads and even on a race track usually resolves into understeer soon afterwards. This can be changed with setup tweaks, as Mitsubishi's Evo range proves, but I get the feeling that the Audi is tuned for accountants, not wannabe rally drivers.
So, what are my lasting impressions after my first drive of a fast Audi? For 90% of people the decision should be easy between this and the M3: buy the Audi. The Audi has a better interior, nicer controls, a nicer feel about it and more reserved grown up looks. The performance may disappoint for all the weight that the big V8 adds to the car and your running costs, but most of the time on crowded UK roads this may not matter. Where the BMW scores is on those days where the sun's out (or in my case also when it's wet and slippery!), you've got an open road and you want to just *drive*. If I was in the Audi I probably wouldn't bother, and I'd just chuck another Sade CD on (apparently every Audi comes with the full back catalogue these days). If I was in the BMW, I'd hit the Sport button and a big grin would appear on my face.
So which would I buy? Back in 2005 it would have been a tough call. For most of my driving the Audi is better, but then again so would a 1.9Tdi version. For the remainder of my driving the rear drive sonorous and faster BMW E46 M3 is far better, but I'd would be wondering where my money went because the BMW is inferior in every other respect. It really is a tough call to name a winner for this test. Personally, I don't think I could bring myself to spend serious money on the rather ordinary Audi, but equally if I'm spending that sort of money I don't want the interior quality and numb feel of the BMW. If we remove image from the equation, I expect most everyday people not that interested in driving would buy the Audi; but then again do those sorts of people spend this sort of money on a high performance car? Perhaps a businessman who has lots of money and just wants something fast? I expect that's who the RS4 is aimed at. I'm not so sure which I'd go for, and the honest answer is that I don't think either car is worth my money. I'm just waiting for someone to build a car like my BMW Z4C with greater practicality - a car that like the Audi has a high quality interior, provides comfort and quiet, but when an open road presents itself you want to drive it and enjoy it. I think that car may be the new BMW M3 (BMW's answer to this Audi), but of course being so much newer that would demand £50k, which I don't have right now!
It's never simple! :-)
Edited by RobM77 on Sunday 18th April 17:48
Mr Darcy said:
Having an arguement in a bar. Which is best M3 or RS4.
I say M3 random drunk bloke says RS4
Sorry should add its the e90 M3. V. B7 rs4
Just better in the all round stakes.
I was going to say M3 but then I noticed that you can't spell 'decide' so I'd have to go with the RS4! I say M3 random drunk bloke says RS4
Sorry should add its the e90 M3. V. B7 rs4
Just better in the all round stakes.
Well I test drove both and ended up buying the Audi. Not only do I prefer AWD/4WD capability, but the interior of the beemer really is relatively shocking, and cheap.
In the end though I sold the RS4 within six months because it was, frankly, too boring. My other car at the same time was a 350bhp MY02 WRX STi Impreza, which basically did everything the Audi did (apart from looking expensive), only better, and at a fraction of the mpg.
A TVR Sagaris soon livened things up!!
In the end though I sold the RS4 within six months because it was, frankly, too boring. My other car at the same time was a 350bhp MY02 WRX STi Impreza, which basically did everything the Audi did (apart from looking expensive), only better, and at a fraction of the mpg.
A TVR Sagaris soon livened things up!!
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