Are patents for software a valid idea
Discussion
Currently I have an idea for a software product that addresses a problem that I have yet to see any other software delivering a suitable solution to.
Obviously I'm not going to go into too much detail here about what the idea or the problem is but needless to say I've searched for equivilant software and patents and both have come up short.
Tools are out there to do the job but they are quite slow, as in very very slow and inaccurate at the same time.
Now reading into patents has got me thinking is it worth patenting an idea, as soon as you detail the design for the patent someone else can copy but suitably change their approach to get the same result and thus bypass the patent. Do patents really offer any use in software or can a patent be specific enough to detail what it is doing whilst remaining ambiguous enough to ensure the idea is protected so company B couldnt come along and do something very similar?
I've got the money to invest into the searches and application of the patent, the next step would be getting the software developed. I presume it best to wait for the patent to at least be pending before divulging the idea with developers who may capitialise on my idea and screw me over?
Obviously I'm not going to go into too much detail here about what the idea or the problem is but needless to say I've searched for equivilant software and patents and both have come up short.
Tools are out there to do the job but they are quite slow, as in very very slow and inaccurate at the same time.
Now reading into patents has got me thinking is it worth patenting an idea, as soon as you detail the design for the patent someone else can copy but suitably change their approach to get the same result and thus bypass the patent. Do patents really offer any use in software or can a patent be specific enough to detail what it is doing whilst remaining ambiguous enough to ensure the idea is protected so company B couldnt come along and do something very similar?
I've got the money to invest into the searches and application of the patent, the next step would be getting the software developed. I presume it best to wait for the patent to at least be pending before divulging the idea with developers who may capitialise on my idea and screw me over?
stigmundfreud said:
Currently I have an idea for a software product that addresses a problem that I have yet to see any other software delivering a suitable solution to.
Obviously I'm not going to go into too much detail here about what the idea or the problem is but needless to say I've searched for equivilant software and patents and both have come up short.
Tools are out there to do the job but they are quite slow, as in very very slow and inaccurate at the same time.
Now reading into patents has got me thinking is it worth patenting an idea, as soon as you detail the design for the patent someone else can copy but suitably change their approach to get the same result and thus bypass the patent. Do patents really offer any use in software or can a patent be specific enough to detail what it is doing whilst remaining ambiguous enough to ensure the idea is protected so company B couldnt come along and do something very similar?
I've got the money to invest into the searches and application of the patent, the next step would be getting the software developed. I presume it best to wait for the patent to at least be pending before divulging the idea with developers who may capitialise on my idea and screw me over?
I didn't think that "software patents" had any legal standing.Obviously I'm not going to go into too much detail here about what the idea or the problem is but needless to say I've searched for equivilant software and patents and both have come up short.
Tools are out there to do the job but they are quite slow, as in very very slow and inaccurate at the same time.
Now reading into patents has got me thinking is it worth patenting an idea, as soon as you detail the design for the patent someone else can copy but suitably change their approach to get the same result and thus bypass the patent. Do patents really offer any use in software or can a patent be specific enough to detail what it is doing whilst remaining ambiguous enough to ensure the idea is protected so company B couldnt come along and do something very similar?
I've got the money to invest into the searches and application of the patent, the next step would be getting the software developed. I presume it best to wait for the patent to at least be pending before divulging the idea with developers who may capitialise on my idea and screw me over?
It is already illegal to reverse-engineer someone's copyrighted software application: but it is not illegal to have people who have seen a product write a very, very detailed specification of how a piece of software should work and then send it to a seperate group of people to implement it. This workaround has been used to create "compatible" versions of software for decades.
The situation may have changed if software patents have been given legal status - but I was not aware they had.
HTH. By the way: do you have a background in systems? If not you might find that your idea, however fab, isn't implementable with current technology and this is the reason current solutions are slow or inaccurate. Do you have someone in systems you could talk this through with?
Typically software developments of anything really powerful are not cheap. By not cheap I mean costs running into the hundreds of thousands or even millions of pounds. I run a small software company and the amount of new functionality we can afford to develop each year is very much limited by our budget...
thanks Don and Muncher
Don, yes I have a background and very much hands on in this area and its such a gaping hole. My next bit then is to design the software pseudo code and get someone to impliment it. I'm not big enough to really get things fast enough though so in that hard space of great idea (potentially) but not the resources to develop adequately how do I get from where I am to a fully functioning bit of software that delivers? I used to work for a company that had a software arm but I wouldnt trust speaking to anyone as the idea could then be poached and me being on the sidelines rather bitter....
Don, yes I have a background and very much hands on in this area and its such a gaping hole. My next bit then is to design the software pseudo code and get someone to impliment it. I'm not big enough to really get things fast enough though so in that hard space of great idea (potentially) but not the resources to develop adequately how do I get from where I am to a fully functioning bit of software that delivers? I used to work for a company that had a software arm but I wouldnt trust speaking to anyone as the idea could then be poached and me being on the sidelines rather bitter....
PetrolTed said:
My understanding is that software patents exist in the US, but no in Europe. Most coverage of US patents surrounds the more nonsensical applications like Amazon's "One Click" ordering system or eBay's "Buy it Now" button.
I read one patent that was US based and I was left dumfounded by the language used! Not that I dont understand what they were attempting to get at but they were in effect trying to patent every possible permiatation that it was pathetic. I know the moer specific a patent the better it is but then leaves you open to possible alternates. I;'ll go with no patent idea and just get developing something and hope I can find a software development firm that would take the task on whilst keeping me in rewardPut it this way, every time I work with certain specialists they are crying out for this and I often have to bodge stuff to get the job done
If it's image processing:
1. Unless you know the maths behind the transformation you're proposing, trying to automate a process that would otherwise require manual intervention and/or human judgement is very difficult. Similarly trying to make it faster is not always as simple as you might think.
2. Check out the vast range of photoshop plugins. Your idea may be implementable as a plugin, or may already be implemented. (I'm sure you appreciate that already, but it's worth saying). Undoubtedly that would be the best way to sell such a thing as it makes it immediately accessible to other users.
3. Software is very expensive if you want to keep the rights to yourself, or cheap if you want to give your ideas away. Professional developers can charge hundreds for a day's work but will do it all to a contract that respects your intellectual property. As a starting point, something like a photoshop plugin might take two or three weeks, but the time could vary massively depending on the size of the concept. On the other hand, get a bunch of open source coders interested in your idea and it can be done for free - but will be given away for free.
The biggest problem is that having an idea is actually the easiest part of the process. Implementing it well so that it both works reliably and is usable is quite a skilled task. (in other words, most software developers are arrogant ****s and think that they're the only part of the process that adds value). Making money out of that is like trying to put on a circus with cats.
1. Unless you know the maths behind the transformation you're proposing, trying to automate a process that would otherwise require manual intervention and/or human judgement is very difficult. Similarly trying to make it faster is not always as simple as you might think.
2. Check out the vast range of photoshop plugins. Your idea may be implementable as a plugin, or may already be implemented. (I'm sure you appreciate that already, but it's worth saying). Undoubtedly that would be the best way to sell such a thing as it makes it immediately accessible to other users.
3. Software is very expensive if you want to keep the rights to yourself, or cheap if you want to give your ideas away. Professional developers can charge hundreds for a day's work but will do it all to a contract that respects your intellectual property. As a starting point, something like a photoshop plugin might take two or three weeks, but the time could vary massively depending on the size of the concept. On the other hand, get a bunch of open source coders interested in your idea and it can be done for free - but will be given away for free.
The biggest problem is that having an idea is actually the easiest part of the process. Implementing it well so that it both works reliably and is usable is quite a skilled task. (in other words, most software developers are arrogant ****s and think that they're the only part of the process that adds value). Making money out of that is like trying to put on a circus with cats.
Tuna said:
in other words, most software developers are arrogant ****s and think that they're the only part of the process that adds value
...and proud of it.Control the means of production...and...
In reality nearly all software developers develop software for large companies in which the the smart guy was also paid by the hour to come up the idea.
The fact is that nearly all software ideas and software implementations are done by large companies and the people who do best out of it all are supposed to be the shareholders...who are probably some pension funds. Implementation costs orders of magnitude more than the research in my experience...I'm sure there are fields where the opposite is true, but in commercial IT I think I'm mostly right.
I run a small software company and our product is limited not by ideas (oh we have plenty) but by budget....the man-hours we can afford to expend on speculative development of features. I reckon everyone except the really big players are limited the same way.
as my background is originally in programing and development I've got the program features mapped out and the formulas sorted. All I need is someone that can code in modern shizzle so I can get this to market ASAP.
It needs a licensing model and someway to enforce it etc which is beyond my programming as I've not coded in 15 years. In fact thats a lie, I am a wiz at excel macros but thats by the by
Thanks for advice guys, not bothering with patent will save money that can go on development, contracts etc. Now I have someone who I work with that I trust with the project but his time is stretched. Has anyone actually gone with a product idea and got it developed whilst retaining the rights to the IP?
It needs a licensing model and someway to enforce it etc which is beyond my programming as I've not coded in 15 years. In fact thats a lie, I am a wiz at excel macros but thats by the by
Thanks for advice guys, not bothering with patent will save money that can go on development, contracts etc. Now I have someone who I work with that I trust with the project but his time is stretched. Has anyone actually gone with a product idea and got it developed whilst retaining the rights to the IP?
Don said:
Tuna said:
in other words, most software developers are arrogant ****s and think that they're the only part of the process that adds value
...and proud of it.
stig - one approach might be to make some decisions about what form this software would be in and look round/advertise for someone with that skillset and reasonable free time to discuss the idea further (under an NDA). Remember that once it's developed you still need to get it to customers, collect money, market it and probably maintain the software when the platform you're running it on gets upgraded.
So, think about whether you're talking about targeting Windows, MacOS, Linux, the iPhone or Android, or some cross platform combination of the above. Alternatively it might be something that you would offer 'over the net' as a service, which these days can handle surprising amounts of data seamlessly and reaches a wide variety of platforms quickly (think Google Maps). Or you might be targeting an existing app (such as Photoshop) with a plugin. Ask in the computer section in here and you might find someone.
There are also 'bounty' sites where people can advertise programming jobs for cash, but I'm very, very cynical about these - usually the jobs are a combination of wildly optimistic 'make me rich' ideas and student homework questions, all with ridiculously optimistic fees being offered ("can you write my website for $30?" - yeah, right). I can only imagine the quality of responses you get from that.
Oh, and as for software patents - they're a blot on the face of the planet and shouldn't be encouraged. It's a thorny area and hard to cover quickly, but if you want to capture and keep a market get your idea out there, implement it well, engage with your community and keep improving it. In the real world, physical products are able to compete that way and the amount of effort in developing software is not dissimilar. I'd support (time limited) legal protection where the cost of development is far higher than the cost of reproducing someone else's work, but in software you get the advantage of being first out there and should be in a position to maintain your market lead by evolving the product to best support your customers.
As it is, software patents are beloved by large corporations who use them in handbag fights with each other. In the mean time they trample the landscape for smaller developers and usually get written in such a poor way to be either unenforceable or blanket bans on all software development, ever.
Edited by Tuna on Monday 19th April 11:23
As mentioned by others, software and 'computer implemented business methods' are patentable in the US however Europe differs in this regard. Business methods are not patentable and software is not patentable per se. However an invention embodying software may be patentable if there is a technical effect. The technical effect could be for example, to control something or carry out a technical process, or improve operational speed. It will really depend on what your invention is intended to do and how it does it. Best advice would be discuss the invention with a patent attorney. If you want you can PM me and I can give you specific advice or can recommend an attorney closer to where you are based.
Edited by Ghisallo on Monday 19th April 15:00
cheers guys
Tuna all I am thinking is get to the developed stage then approach companies under NDA that I think would
a.) see the benefit to market
b.) be able to market/ship it etc
esentially I want to get the donky work done then sit back on royalties ala draggons den. If you fancy a slice of this then drop us a line!
Tuna all I am thinking is get to the developed stage then approach companies under NDA that I think would
a.) see the benefit to market
b.) be able to market/ship it etc
esentially I want to get the donky work done then sit back on royalties ala draggons den. If you fancy a slice of this then drop us a line!
spikeyhead said:
Regardless of what you patent, unless you can detect that someone is breaching your patent and you can afford to defend the patent in court then it's better just to keep it as a trade secret.
This.Software Patents are a legal tool used by larger companies to stop other larger companies treading on their toes.
Unless you're willing to defend the patent in court, and can afford the many thousands of pounds required to file a good patent, keep it secret as much as possible.
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