M3 Service History Opinions
Discussion
Hi All
Just a question on opinions about FSH on M3's. I am talking mainly about e46 M3 models (but we could really be talking about any bmw, but M3 cause of the costs).
I know from reading this site that there is a lot of keen DIYers and a lot of people who know what they are talking about.
Would u buy a M3 if it did not have a FBMWSH or FSH but was looked after and well maintain by a keen DIYer who could change oil, air filter, plugs etc etc every 6mths or when ever they wanted to and if they had all the receipts and dates of work done.
But what more do BMW dealer do to a M3 to warrant the approx £600 (i think from reading about) service fee every X miles that a person with good mechanically knowledge could do themselves and there is a lot of people like that here.
Maybe I am missing something and the servicing of an M3 is a specialised thing to do. I am not a mechanic by trade but father and brother are. I have done nearly most things to cars that i have owned (never anyone else's.
A friend from work has a M3 and just pays for the basic service on an M3 from main dealer just to really get book stamped and does not get the recommended work done cause it is to expensive.
Is the extra cost to service a M3 from dealer or indy really worth the stamp in the book, if u know u could service the car urself and do most of the work that is required.
just looking opinions, maybe asked before but i apologise if this has
Cheers
N
Just a question on opinions about FSH on M3's. I am talking mainly about e46 M3 models (but we could really be talking about any bmw, but M3 cause of the costs).
I know from reading this site that there is a lot of keen DIYers and a lot of people who know what they are talking about.
Would u buy a M3 if it did not have a FBMWSH or FSH but was looked after and well maintain by a keen DIYer who could change oil, air filter, plugs etc etc every 6mths or when ever they wanted to and if they had all the receipts and dates of work done.
But what more do BMW dealer do to a M3 to warrant the approx £600 (i think from reading about) service fee every X miles that a person with good mechanically knowledge could do themselves and there is a lot of people like that here.
Maybe I am missing something and the servicing of an M3 is a specialised thing to do. I am not a mechanic by trade but father and brother are. I have done nearly most things to cars that i have owned (never anyone else's.
A friend from work has a M3 and just pays for the basic service on an M3 from main dealer just to really get book stamped and does not get the recommended work done cause it is to expensive.
Is the extra cost to service a M3 from dealer or indy really worth the stamp in the book, if u know u could service the car urself and do most of the work that is required.
just looking opinions, maybe asked before but i apologise if this has
Cheers
N
To be honest I would rather not buy one with fbmwsh and prefer one serviced by a specialist. Anyone thinking that dealers are the best and only option are sadly naive. The amount of scary stories I've heard and experienced with main dealers puts me, my friends and my family off main dealers.
When I moved house I thought I'd try another BMW dealer, they didn't even know what my car was!!! If they don't know what it was would they know the valve clearances need checking as part of an inspection 2? Nope!!
I'd rather send my car the 80 mile round trip to a garage I trust to do what they should when they should and not screw you because they have huge over heads!!!
When I moved house I thought I'd try another BMW dealer, they didn't even know what my car was!!! If they don't know what it was would they know the valve clearances need checking as part of an inspection 2? Nope!!
I'd rather send my car the 80 mile round trip to a garage I trust to do what they should when they should and not screw you because they have huge over heads!!!
Cheers guys
I went searching for more information about what is involved regarding the checking of Valve shims ( from what i understand/read this the most expensive part of the servicing charges). I also found the technical sheet with the clearance settings.
I found this article on several website from the M54 Lead Engineer
"Unique valve mechanism. All current BMW double-overhead-camshaft (DOHC) engines employ "bucket-type" hydraulic lifters, actuating the valves directly with minimum noise and no periodic adjustment. For the S54’s rpm potential, BMW M needed a valve train with less reciprocating mass.
To achieve this, they created a different actuating mechanism, using finger-type rocker arms. Pivoting on their own shafts (one on the intake side, one on the exhaust), these small – one could almost say dainty– arms reach out to provide the actuating surface between camshaft and valve. As the entire arm does not move the distance of valve lift, its effective reciprocating mass is less than its actual mass – and it weighs less than the "bucket tappets" in the first place. When all is said and done, the effective mass is 30%less; in turn, this allows lighter valve springs, which also reduce inertia. The lower valve train inertia helps the engine attain its 8000-rpmcapability.
As the system involves no hydraulic maintenance of valve clearance, it does have to be inspected periodically. Lead engine engineer Helmut Himmel asserts that it is unlikely that clearance will actually require adjustment, but if so it is done with shims (tiny metal discs of various thickness) without removal of the camshafts.
The rocker-arm arrangement also results in less friction. Unlike the rocker arms of BMW’s V-12 engine, however, these do not incorporate rollers, which would add too much mass for such a high-revving engine.
Where the regular-production6-cylinder engines have a simplex (single) primary chain driving the exhaust camshaft and a smaller secondary chain driving the intake camshaft from there, the S54 has a full duplex (double) chain driving both cam shafts directly. As usual with BMW engines, the chain is hydraulically tensioned and needs no periodic adjustment or replacement."
I am not saying this is right or wrong, i just think the servicing charges and for what they are really doing on ur car is very expensive. Cause its a M3 everything is double or triple the price. You could prob service your car for less that £100 and do all the visual checks the dealers are doing and with a bit of knowhow check the valve clearance.
I am only trying to generate a bit of discussion about this.
cheers
N
PS i do not own an M3, will within next year or so if i am lucky
)))))))))))))))))))
I went searching for more information about what is involved regarding the checking of Valve shims ( from what i understand/read this the most expensive part of the servicing charges). I also found the technical sheet with the clearance settings.
I found this article on several website from the M54 Lead Engineer
"Unique valve mechanism. All current BMW double-overhead-camshaft (DOHC) engines employ "bucket-type" hydraulic lifters, actuating the valves directly with minimum noise and no periodic adjustment. For the S54’s rpm potential, BMW M needed a valve train with less reciprocating mass.
To achieve this, they created a different actuating mechanism, using finger-type rocker arms. Pivoting on their own shafts (one on the intake side, one on the exhaust), these small – one could almost say dainty– arms reach out to provide the actuating surface between camshaft and valve. As the entire arm does not move the distance of valve lift, its effective reciprocating mass is less than its actual mass – and it weighs less than the "bucket tappets" in the first place. When all is said and done, the effective mass is 30%less; in turn, this allows lighter valve springs, which also reduce inertia. The lower valve train inertia helps the engine attain its 8000-rpmcapability.
As the system involves no hydraulic maintenance of valve clearance, it does have to be inspected periodically. Lead engine engineer Helmut Himmel asserts that it is unlikely that clearance will actually require adjustment, but if so it is done with shims (tiny metal discs of various thickness) without removal of the camshafts.
The rocker-arm arrangement also results in less friction. Unlike the rocker arms of BMW’s V-12 engine, however, these do not incorporate rollers, which would add too much mass for such a high-revving engine.
Where the regular-production6-cylinder engines have a simplex (single) primary chain driving the exhaust camshaft and a smaller secondary chain driving the intake camshaft from there, the S54 has a full duplex (double) chain driving both cam shafts directly. As usual with BMW engines, the chain is hydraulically tensioned and needs no periodic adjustment or replacement."
I am not saying this is right or wrong, i just think the servicing charges and for what they are really doing on ur car is very expensive. Cause its a M3 everything is double or triple the price. You could prob service your car for less that £100 and do all the visual checks the dealers are doing and with a bit of knowhow check the valve clearance.
I am only trying to generate a bit of discussion about this.
cheers
N
PS i do not own an M3, will within next year or so if i am lucky
)))))))))))))))))))I'm not concerned about the cost it's just you'll find quite a few examples of the dealers not doing this.
I'd rather take my cars to specialists that are usually smaller, more personal businesses where the experienced guy/owner will do the work.
The same discussion was on the Porsche forum.
I take my M3 to Metcalf Motorsport and have done for years, my Boxster goes to Porscheuro and my Evo goes to The Racing Line.
I'd rather take my cars to specialists that are usually smaller, more personal businesses where the experienced guy/owner will do the work.
The same discussion was on the Porsche forum.
I take my M3 to Metcalf Motorsport and have done for years, my Boxster goes to Porscheuro and my Evo goes to The Racing Line.
cheers falkster, impressive list of cars
but do u think paying £600 for a dealer to jack up ur car, take out the sump bolt, drain the oil, remove the oil filter(which is a 2 min job), replace the air filter(30 second job), pour in new oil and cast there eye over the rest of the inpection sheet items (except valve clearance checking) and i know they supply the parts which is included in the cost. My friend from work got basically the oil service done, not sure exact price i think £400-£600 and got an estimate for work they recommended to be done at over £3000. £3000 for a service, they wanted to replace discs and pads and other stuff that did not need done, i looked at his discs and they looked fine to me and pads still had plently left.
Maybe i am wrong, maybe dealers do, do more than i think, i have never took any car i have ever owned to a dealer for servicing or even to a garage for servicing. I have done all work to my cars in the past and current myself. I have done most jobs to cars, head gaskets, gearbox, clutches, timing belt, turbos, fixed car after breaking timing belt (was not a nice one lol), swapped engines, changed head and changed even pistons once and i am no mechanic, i work in IT lol
Maybe because i can do all my own work, that i think the costs are very high.
Cheers
N
but do u think paying £600 for a dealer to jack up ur car, take out the sump bolt, drain the oil, remove the oil filter(which is a 2 min job), replace the air filter(30 second job), pour in new oil and cast there eye over the rest of the inpection sheet items (except valve clearance checking) and i know they supply the parts which is included in the cost. My friend from work got basically the oil service done, not sure exact price i think £400-£600 and got an estimate for work they recommended to be done at over £3000. £3000 for a service, they wanted to replace discs and pads and other stuff that did not need done, i looked at his discs and they looked fine to me and pads still had plently left.
Maybe i am wrong, maybe dealers do, do more than i think, i have never took any car i have ever owned to a dealer for servicing or even to a garage for servicing. I have done all work to my cars in the past and current myself. I have done most jobs to cars, head gaskets, gearbox, clutches, timing belt, turbos, fixed car after breaking timing belt (was not a nice one lol), swapped engines, changed head and changed even pistons once and i am no mechanic, i work in IT lol
Maybe because i can do all my own work, that i think the costs are very high.
Cheers
N
I always went BMW Main Dealer, then one of them must not have been topping up the gearbox oil, as it ran out, and died ;0(
Then I bought a house, and it was indy all the way, and once the old girls hit 100K I do the oil and filter every 6K and save the money for fixing it if it breaks.
The last Dealer quote I had for my 1998 M3 was £1400 for and inspection II, thats just madness.
Then I bought a house, and it was indy all the way, and once the old girls hit 100K I do the oil and filter every 6K and save the money for fixing it if it breaks.
The last Dealer quote I had for my 1998 M3 was £1400 for and inspection II, thats just madness.
Bought mine with full BMWSH. It was due an oil service couple of months after I got it so it went to a reputable indy who was recommended to my by a friend. Happy with his work so far as he's only a small outfit and seems to care about what he does so it will go back to him for as long as I have the car, which will most likely be some considerable period of time.
Re: your mate not servicing his properly, that's a false economy in my book. He shouldn't have bought it if he can't afford the associated running costs, imho.
Re: your mate not servicing his properly, that's a false economy in my book. He shouldn't have bought it if he can't afford the associated running costs, imho.
Agree Mervin.
that partly the point,it also has a FBMWSH, if and when he sells it.
Would u not better buy a car of someone who really looked after it and did the servicing themselves, had all the recepts, than one that has a what i described above. It be hard to tell, but u would know if you are buying the car of a genunie person who has all the details, recepts, dates etc.
i would pefer the latter, a person who really looked after car.
i was reading another forum and guys on it were changing their oil every 5000 miles themselves and they had removed the engine cover at the top of the engine and u could see the differnce.
they had three pictures of m3 engines, and u could see they differnce in the engines. i think they all had about the same mileage (70000 miles) might all run like crap, but the pictures told a different story lol
cheers all
N
that partly the point,it also has a FBMWSH, if and when he sells it.
Would u not better buy a car of someone who really looked after it and did the servicing themselves, had all the recepts, than one that has a what i described above. It be hard to tell, but u would know if you are buying the car of a genunie person who has all the details, recepts, dates etc.
i would pefer the latter, a person who really looked after car.
i was reading another forum and guys on it were changing their oil every 5000 miles themselves and they had removed the engine cover at the top of the engine and u could see the differnce.
they had three pictures of m3 engines, and u could see they differnce in the engines. i think they all had about the same mileage (70000 miles) might all run like crap, but the pictures told a different story lol
cheers all
N
apache1311 said:
Agree Mervin.
that partly the point,it also has a FBMWSH, if and when he sells it.
Would u not better buy a car of someone who really looked after it and did the servicing themselves, had all the recepts, than one that has a what i described above. It be hard to tell, but u would know if you are buying the car of a genunie person who has all the details, recepts, dates etc.
i would pefer the latter, a person who really looked after car.
i was reading another forum and guys on it were changing their oil every 5000 miles themselves and they had removed the engine cover at the top of the engine and u could see the differnce.
they had three pictures of m3 engines, and u could see they differnce in the engines. i think they all had about the same mileage (70000 miles) might all run like crap, but the pictures told a different story lol
cheers all
N
Of course you want someone that looks after their car. Part of that is getting it serviced properly, whether by a decent dealer/indy etc. Personally I'd have no problem with someone changing their own oil etc as part of general maintenance/care, most likely more ofter than required by the car's service indicator. But when it comes to Inspection 1 and 2 on an M I'd want it done properly.that partly the point,it also has a FBMWSH, if and when he sells it.
Would u not better buy a car of someone who really looked after it and did the servicing themselves, had all the recepts, than one that has a what i described above. It be hard to tell, but u would know if you are buying the car of a genunie person who has all the details, recepts, dates etc.
i would pefer the latter, a person who really looked after car.
i was reading another forum and guys on it were changing their oil every 5000 miles themselves and they had removed the engine cover at the top of the engine and u could see the differnce.
they had three pictures of m3 engines, and u could see they differnce in the engines. i think they all had about the same mileage (70000 miles) might all run like crap, but the pictures told a different story lol
cheers all
N
As a sweeping generalisation I think 'most' people buying this sort of car would want FSH of some sort given the likely value of the vehicle, and also the possible effect on it's residual value. There's also the issue that modern cars are more complex to work on in general than older cars, and that trend will most likely continue as time moves forwards, so more difficult for the home spanner merchant to look after in this manner.
Edited by Mervin Minkey on Tuesday 27th April 17:51
If their work was done over and above it would be ok but instead of I would be very careful! No matter how much you think you know unless you have the ability and the equipment (plus the service schedule) you won't be able to convince a potential buyer you've done everything! Even then the lack of a rubber stamp in the book would put most off because they will be thinking how the hell do I convince someone buying my car the owner before was brilliant and you haven't just said that cos you've clocked it.
apache1311 said:
Hi All
Just a question on opinions about FSH on M3's. I am talking mainly about e46 M3 models (but we could really be talking about any bmw, but M3 cause of the costs).
I know from reading this site that there is a lot of keen DIYers and a lot of people who know what they are talking about.
Would u buy a M3 if it did not have a FBMWSH or FSH but was looked after and well maintain by a keen DIYer who could change oil, air filter, plugs etc etc every 6mths or when ever they wanted to and if they had all the receipts and dates of work done.
But what more do BMW dealer do to a M3 to warrant the approx £600 (i think from reading about) service fee every X miles that a person with good mechanically knowledge could do themselves and there is a lot of people like that here.
Maybe I am missing something and the servicing of an M3 is a specialised thing to do. I am not a mechanic by trade but father and brother are. I have done nearly most things to cars that i have owned (never anyone else's.
A friend from work has a M3 and just pays for the basic service on an M3 from main dealer just to really get book stamped and does not get the recommended work done cause it is to expensive.
Is the extra cost to service a M3 from dealer or indy really worth the stamp in the book, if u know u could service the car urself and do most of the work that is required.
just looking opinions, maybe asked before but i apologise if this has
Cheers
N
N do your self a favour, stick to FORDS, any dick can service them, M3's need TLC and money thrown at them, FSH is a MUST, micky mouse servicing is a sure way to disaster.Just a question on opinions about FSH on M3's. I am talking mainly about e46 M3 models (but we could really be talking about any bmw, but M3 cause of the costs).
I know from reading this site that there is a lot of keen DIYers and a lot of people who know what they are talking about.
Would u buy a M3 if it did not have a FBMWSH or FSH but was looked after and well maintain by a keen DIYer who could change oil, air filter, plugs etc etc every 6mths or when ever they wanted to and if they had all the receipts and dates of work done.
But what more do BMW dealer do to a M3 to warrant the approx £600 (i think from reading about) service fee every X miles that a person with good mechanically knowledge could do themselves and there is a lot of people like that here.
Maybe I am missing something and the servicing of an M3 is a specialised thing to do. I am not a mechanic by trade but father and brother are. I have done nearly most things to cars that i have owned (never anyone else's.
A friend from work has a M3 and just pays for the basic service on an M3 from main dealer just to really get book stamped and does not get the recommended work done cause it is to expensive.
Is the extra cost to service a M3 from dealer or indy really worth the stamp in the book, if u know u could service the car urself and do most of the work that is required.
just looking opinions, maybe asked before but i apologise if this has
Cheers
N
Edited by JMRS4 on Tuesday 27th April 21:38
I'm aware of one BMW Main Dealer that serviced an M car, the Insp I / £600 one and didn't take the cam cover off among other things. In other words all they did was change the oil, nothing else, and stamped up the book for the full service. They also falsified an MoT at the same time. In this case they were caught by paperwork anomalies spotted by the owner, as an independent qualified engineer I did the forensics and dealt with them. Shame they can't be trusted so I'd buy with as low mileage as possible and use a trusted garage. BMW or indi - whether they do to the book is more important than where. Anyway the tappets isn't difficult to check, shimming is! Just time consuming. Interesting that it took 7hrs to meticulously do the corrective service whilst BMW allow 4....
Having said that, I was surprised the M3/Z4M service actions aren't at all too difficult for a reasonably competent home mechanic to do themselves.
Having said that, I was surprised the M3/Z4M service actions aren't at all too difficult for a reasonably competent home mechanic to do themselves.
Edited by ian in lancs on Wednesday 28th April 06:44
Cheers Ian.
I do not think servicing a car is difficult. Maybe M3 is. Some would say changing a timing belt is very difficult. (And i know bmw use a chain and not a timing belt)
Check out this link on really how difficult it is to check the shim and cam clearance.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=31...
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=11...
Thought this was a good line from the post
"It was fairly easy compared to how it is portrayed"
Stuff to for inspection I/II
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=19...
Time consuming maybe, not difficult.
on one of the links there are interesting pics of the cam's and the mileage people have changed oil at.
Following the recommended 7.5k and the guys changed a 5k. shows you the difference, prob perform the same, but look different
N
I do not think servicing a car is difficult. Maybe M3 is. Some would say changing a timing belt is very difficult. (And i know bmw use a chain and not a timing belt)
Check out this link on really how difficult it is to check the shim and cam clearance.
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=31...
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=11...
Thought this was a good line from the post
"It was fairly easy compared to how it is portrayed"
Stuff to for inspection I/II
http://www.m3forum.net/m3forum/showthread.php?t=19...
Time consuming maybe, not difficult.
on one of the links there are interesting pics of the cam's and the mileage people have changed oil at.
Following the recommended 7.5k and the guys changed a 5k. shows you the difference, prob perform the same, but look different
N
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