"fair" and "equal"
Discussion
the words "fair" and "equal" are thrown around a lot by politicians, but they don't seem to be used in a sensible manner. Often you find them used interchangeably but, in my mind, a fair society and an equal society are diametrically opposed. If you look at ecology, I think it can reasonably be argued that a natural ecosystem is fair. Even so, not all animals in that ecosystem are equal - some live longer, some die straight away, some are hungry and can't reproduce because of it, some get all the food they need and live to pass on their genes.
Equality is everything being the same.
Fairness is applying the same conditions to everyone.
If you apply this concept of fairness vs equality to the tax system then we can see how people are confused. People seem very keen to have a "fair" tax system, by which they mean that people who earn more money should pay a greater percentage of their income in tax. WHich is obviously not fair! Fair would be a tax free allowance sufficient to live on with a flat rate on any income above that.
I wish they would get this right...
Equality is everything being the same.
Fairness is applying the same conditions to everyone.
If you apply this concept of fairness vs equality to the tax system then we can see how people are confused. People seem very keen to have a "fair" tax system, by which they mean that people who earn more money should pay a greater percentage of their income in tax. WHich is obviously not fair! Fair would be a tax free allowance sufficient to live on with a flat rate on any income above that.
I wish they would get this right...
Fair and equal is a load of poop!
I work harder than a lot of other people, and there are a lot of people who, in turn, work harder than me. Why should we all get the same in return?
Why should people who just can't be arsed get the equivalent of what I get? And in many cases, much more!
I understand that there should be a basic level of service available to all, like basic health care on the NHS, but if I work harder and pay more tax and NI, why can't I have a better standard of service?
Fair and equal should apply like a percentage, the more you put in, the more you get out.....
I work harder than a lot of other people, and there are a lot of people who, in turn, work harder than me. Why should we all get the same in return?
Why should people who just can't be arsed get the equivalent of what I get? And in many cases, much more!
I understand that there should be a basic level of service available to all, like basic health care on the NHS, but if I work harder and pay more tax and NI, why can't I have a better standard of service?
Fair and equal should apply like a percentage, the more you put in, the more you get out.....
JCB123 I think you missed my point slightly - you are saying you want a "fair" system rather than an "equal" one.
not quite sure on the particulars (better services on the NHS for people who pay more tax???) but I think you are right that everyone should, as a percentage, pay the same. that would be fair.
not quite sure on the particulars (better services on the NHS for people who pay more tax???) but I think you are right that everyone should, as a percentage, pay the same. that would be fair.
wah wah wah not fair! take more money off those poor folk, they've all got sky and great big tellies and I don't want to pay any more
for what it's worth I reckon the big companies, like Tesco for a prime example, should be paying more tax, instead of exploiting easy loopholes and offshoring every part of the business
for what it's worth I reckon the big companies, like Tesco for a prime example, should be paying more tax, instead of exploiting easy loopholes and offshoring every part of the business
JCB123 said:
Fair and equal is a load of poop!
I work harder than a lot of other people, and there are a lot of people who, in turn, work harder than me. Why should we all get the same in return?
Why should people who just can't be arsed get the equivalent of what I get? And in many cases, much more!
I understand that there should be a basic level of service available to all, like basic health care on the NHS, but if I work harder and pay more tax and NI, why can't I have a better standard of service?
Fair and equal should apply like a percentage, the more you put in, the more you get out.....
Not quite. What you initially describe is equality which is forced down our throats. There's nothing wrong with fairness which is more like the percentage you describe, it's just that what the leftie politicians describe as fairness is a load of tosh.I work harder than a lot of other people, and there are a lot of people who, in turn, work harder than me. Why should we all get the same in return?
Why should people who just can't be arsed get the equivalent of what I get? And in many cases, much more!
I understand that there should be a basic level of service available to all, like basic health care on the NHS, but if I work harder and pay more tax and NI, why can't I have a better standard of service?
Fair and equal should apply like a percentage, the more you put in, the more you get out.....
Tangent Police said:
Fair is even more of a screwed attitude than equal.
Equal is a starting point that everyone can explode in different directions from. Fair is something which erodes and nibbles away at success, it is a continual tax in the name of delusion.
nonono, its the other way around!Equal is a starting point that everyone can explode in different directions from. Fair is something which erodes and nibbles away at success, it is a continual tax in the name of delusion.
fair is the same rules, conditions (taxes) applied to everyone, and let them get on with it.
equal is trying to adjust things so that everything is the same (communism)
DangerousMike said:
JCB123 I think you missed my point slightly - you are saying you want a "fair" system rather than an "equal" one.
not quite sure on the particulars (better services on the NHS for people who pay more tax???) but I think you are right that everyone should, as a percentage, pay the same. that would be fair.
Yes - kind of. I'm saying that I want a 'fair' system. Flat rate of 20% income tax....just becuase I'm succesful becuase I worked hard, I don't see why I should have to pay 40 or 50% tax.not quite sure on the particulars (better services on the NHS for people who pay more tax???) but I think you are right that everyone should, as a percentage, pay the same. that would be fair.
Fair would mean a basic standard level of services for everyone, then, if you decide to work and contribute, you get more in return (more could mean less penalties).
DangerousMike said:
Tangent Police said:
Fair is even more of a screwed attitude than equal.
Equal is a starting point that everyone can explode in different directions from. Fair is something which erodes and nibbles away at success, it is a continual tax in the name of delusion.
nonono, its the other way around!Equal is a starting point that everyone can explode in different directions from. Fair is something which erodes and nibbles away at success, it is a continual tax in the name of delusion.
fair is the same rules, conditions (taxes) applied to everyone, and let them get on with it.
equal is trying to adjust things so that everything is the same (communism)
JCB123 said:
DangerousMike said:
JCB123 I think you missed my point slightly - you are saying you want a "fair" system rather than an "equal" one.
not quite sure on the particulars (better services on the NHS for people who pay more tax???) but I think you are right that everyone should, as a percentage, pay the same. that would be fair.
Yes - kind of. I'm saying that I want a 'fair' system. Flat rate of 20% income tax....just becuase I'm succesful becuase I worked hard, I don't see why I should have to pay 40 or 50% tax.not quite sure on the particulars (better services on the NHS for people who pay more tax???) but I think you are right that everyone should, as a percentage, pay the same. that would be fair.
Fair would mean a basic standard level of services for everyone, then, if you decide to work and contribute, you get more in return (more could mean less penalties).
20% flat rate tax.
Married tax allowance - 18k ish
Tax relief on mortgage interest up to £400k
No CGT
No IHT
No VAT
30 Mins from Gatwick.
The Americans were recently protesting about fairness and equality.
I think the phrase was "Equality of Opportunity - NOT Equality of Outcome".
i.e. Everyone should get the same chance...but what you do with it is up to you: the State should not intervene, through taxation, to ensure everyone has the exact same standard of living.
Giving everyone the same chance is hard enough.
I think the phrase was "Equality of Opportunity - NOT Equality of Outcome".
i.e. Everyone should get the same chance...but what you do with it is up to you: the State should not intervene, through taxation, to ensure everyone has the exact same standard of living.
Giving everyone the same chance is hard enough.
They all have different ideas of what amounts to fairness. If you ask people which of those ideas they prefer, they will usually pick one which favours their own situation.
Consider how local government is funded - community charge (everyone pays the same), rates/council tax (get them in the big houses), LibDem local income tax (get them with the big wallets) - you'll find people who will argue that each of them is fairest.
One thing to bear in mind is that a tax system which succeeded in sharing the pain out equally would make it harder to put taxes up. Divide and conquer is the name of the game.
Consider how local government is funded - community charge (everyone pays the same), rates/council tax (get them in the big houses), LibDem local income tax (get them with the big wallets) - you'll find people who will argue that each of them is fairest.
One thing to bear in mind is that a tax system which succeeded in sharing the pain out equally would make it harder to put taxes up. Divide and conquer is the name of the game.
The internet cannot decide who originally wrote this, but it illustrates a point:
"Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all
ten comes to £100...
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go
something like this...
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7..
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.
So, that's what they decided to do..
The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with
the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball.
"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to
reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20". Drinks for the ten men
would now cost just £80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.
So the first four men were unaffected.
They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men?
The paying customers?
How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his
fair share?
They realised that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they
subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the
sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.
So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each
man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the
principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to
work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.
And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100%
saving).
The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33% saving).
The seventh now paid £5 instead of £7 (28% saving).
The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 (25% saving).
The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 (22% saving).
The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% saving).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four
continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began
to compare their savings.
"I only got a pound out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man.
He pointed to the tenth man,"but he got £10!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a pound
too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"
"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back,
when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get
anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine
sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to
pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have
enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is
how our tax system works.
The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the
most benefit from a tax reduction.
Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may
not show up anymore.
In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is
somewhat friendlier."
"Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all
ten comes to £100...
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go
something like this...
The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay £1.
The sixth would pay £3.
The seventh would pay £7..
The eighth would pay £12.
The ninth would pay £18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay £59.
So, that's what they decided to do..
The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with
the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball.
"Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to
reduce the cost of your daily beer by £20". Drinks for the ten men
would now cost just £80.
The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes.
So the first four men were unaffected.
They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men?
The paying customers?
How could they divide the £20 windfall so that everyone would get his
fair share?
They realised that £20 divided by six is £3.33. But if they
subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the
sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.
So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each
man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the
principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to
work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.
And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100%
saving).
The sixth now paid £2 instead of £3 (33% saving).
The seventh now paid £5 instead of £7 (28% saving).
The eighth now paid £9 instead of £12 (25% saving).
The ninth now paid £14 instead of £18 (22% saving).
The tenth now paid £49 instead of £59 (16% saving).
Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four
continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began
to compare their savings.
"I only got a pound out of the £20 saving," declared the sixth man.
He pointed to the tenth man,"but he got £10!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a pound
too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"
"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get £10 back,
when I got only £2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get
anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.
The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine
sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to
pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have
enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!
And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is
how our tax system works.
The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the
most benefit from a tax reduction.
Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may
not show up anymore.
In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is
somewhat friendlier."
DangerousMike said:
I'm not saying that Hugo a Gogo - I am making a philosophical point really. What is sold to us as fair or equal is usually neither.
A cynic might propose a correlation between income and support for the philosophical position that flat rate taxes are fairer. Most people would like whatever status quo exists to be shifted in favour of their own position.Whilst the idea of dole-scrounging Sky-watching scumbags is very prevalent particularly on PH, I don't personally know anyone like this. All the poorer people I know (and I know a few) work about as hard as the better off ones.
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