stripping down 996 engine. - help
Discussion
bit of problem here guys. my c4 has gone in for the 24k service with opc and first they noticed an oil leak from crankshaft so take gear box out to change and then i'm told clutch is nearly gone ( not 2 worried as i know 996s are heavy on clutch ) so i sanction work and then this happens.... get a call back saying that when gearbox was out they noticed that a main bearing had collapsed... this will require the engine to be stripped down to fix. my question is does anybody have any idea of the cost of this? the car is 4yrs old and out of warranty, but only done 25k from new with full opc servce history. the garage said they will call porsche gb for a good will payment which now has me worried as to the extent of cost/ damage. sorry to blah blah on but as you guys are the experts want to put my mind to rest if anything similar has happened to you or a friend. cheers, kagey
You will be rogered if they don't get a goodwill offer from Porsche.
In very general terms, as it depends hugely on the amount of work they need to do and what parts need replacing in the process, but an engine rebuild can cost anything from 4k to 9k+ at main dealer prices.
Don't sanction the work unless they can get the goodwill offer. If they can't, whip it away from the OPC and get a good specialist or independent to do the work. At 30 GBP an hour instead of 90 GBP, that, say 60 hour, rebuild plus parts becomes a lot cheaper.
1) Find out about the goodwill offer
2) Get accurate parts and labour estimate from OPC
3) Be prepared to take your car away on a trailer and given to a specialist
In very general terms, as it depends hugely on the amount of work they need to do and what parts need replacing in the process, but an engine rebuild can cost anything from 4k to 9k+ at main dealer prices.
Don't sanction the work unless they can get the goodwill offer. If they can't, whip it away from the OPC and get a good specialist or independent to do the work. At 30 GBP an hour instead of 90 GBP, that, say 60 hour, rebuild plus parts becomes a lot cheaper.
1) Find out about the goodwill offer
2) Get accurate parts and labour estimate from OPC
3) Be prepared to take your car away on a trailer and given to a specialist
This got me thinking, and of course it depends on an honest answer from yourself, but has the car been seriously thrashed?, if not, this level of 'quality' is outrageous for a car that has only done 25k, the age is (relatively)academic in my view. If the car has not been thrashed, they Porsche GB can intergate the ECU and othe digital bits to confirm this, now you may think i'm mad about this, but the reason i say it is because i had a problem with my 993 (bodywork), the upshot being that i was chatting to a nameless (senior) bod at Porsche GB who asked if i wanted to sell it to them (low milage and all that), I said no ta, but why do you want to buy it, etc, within the conversation he (seriously) alluded to the notion that he knew catagorically it had not been thrashed, and i said how do you know, to which he replied with a twinkle in his eye, that the car has told them it hasn't, and i got the distinct impression that he was referring to things of a Laptop'ary nature as opposed to mechanical inspection, and mine is a 993, i would imagine that the newer 996s have plenty to tell if you plug the right Laptop/OBD interfaces in. I may well be barking up the wrong deciderous, but it still remains that on a 25k car that kind of 'damage' is almost comedic (though i'm not laughing, more crying with you), given Porsches reputation for best-of-class build quality. I think Dom's advice of being prepared to trialer it away for a second opinion is sensible, lest you want to be completely had over, for once they have you, 'they have you'. Good luck.
not thrashed by me. ive owned it since last july and have put 7k on clock since then. its been serviced at the right intervals in fact this service is its 4th although only done 25k so i find it hard to understand how things could have gone so badly wrong. it drives perfectly. i did have a rook ecu chip replacement in november for a 12 bhp gain but dont think that that could be behind the damage ( or at least i hope not or it would have happened elsewhere before) i guess im just waiting on a phone call from the opc to see what to do next. thanks guys, kagey
Not a Porsche expert in any way but I cannot see how a Porsche with a genuine(?) 25k and full Porsche Service History(?) could possibly suffer such a failure. Obviously if it has been driven without any engine oil in it that would be another story. I cannot see any way you should be in the frame for any of this bill.
Did they report the oil leak to you first and ask you before investigating it? Assuming they did, at that point the box would have to come out if it was leaking from the rear and it would not make sense to leave the old clutch in unless it was new. Then they “notice” that the main bearing has collapsed, how exactly would they have noticed that without stripping anything else out? I could be wrong but this all sounds a bit odd to me.
There is one thing here that you need to be careful about though, you mentioned a chip upgrade. Any ECU can be read nowadays and a non standard chip could quite easily chuck any “goodwill” claim out of the window.
I hope it works out for you, good luck!
Ivan
Did they report the oil leak to you first and ask you before investigating it? Assuming they did, at that point the box would have to come out if it was leaking from the rear and it would not make sense to leave the old clutch in unless it was new. Then they “notice” that the main bearing has collapsed, how exactly would they have noticed that without stripping anything else out? I could be wrong but this all sounds a bit odd to me.
There is one thing here that you need to be careful about though, you mentioned a chip upgrade. Any ECU can be read nowadays and a non standard chip could quite easily chuck any “goodwill” claim out of the window.
I hope it works out for you, good luck!
Ivan
Ribol said:
...but I cannot see how a Porsche with a genuine(?) 25k and full Porsche Service History(?) could possibly suffer such a failure.
Nearly always caused by clutch/flywheel imbalance, Porsche in their wisdom extended the distance between the flywheel assembly and the front main bearing on the 996 and any wobble causes the main bearing to fail due to crankshaft flex.
Basically because the 996 and Boxster engine has been redesigned under Japanese influence and 40 years of Porsche development and heritage has been thrown out of the door. IMHO the engines are so poorly designed that even Porsche will not risk the bottom ends on anything of power and therefore continue to use the 964 crankcase design for the GT3 & GT2 models 'cause the new design would fall appart in racing use.
Anyway (rant over), not many independents will touch the 996 engine as there are too many special assembly tools required to built the things, plus the fact that many parts are not available, so the sensible option is going to be to replace the engine.
As an aside we collected a 1998 Boxster 2.5 from an OPC today for a replacement used engine to be fitted, in this case we think the idler shaft bearings have collapsed and wrecked the cases. The OPC quoted £14000, we will have the new engine fitted for £5000, which is a darn sight more reasonable seeing as the car is a LHD and not worth a lot more than a new engine.
>> Edited by ninemeister on Friday 5th March 00:40
ninemeister said:
Nearly always caused by clutch/flywheel imbalance, Porsche in their wisdom extended the distance between the flywheel assembly and the front main bearing on the 996 and any wobble causes the main bearing to fail due to crankshaft flex.
A customer buying a car worth(?) this kind of money is entitled to expect better than 25k from an engine. How far away the flywheel/clutch is supported from the main bearing is of no concern to the owner. I have seen lesser manufacturers put their hands in their pockets to protect their good name. It would be a bit short sighted business wise for Porsche to allow this owner and others like him to get shafted like this. Their good name is worth considerably more than an engine.
These cars have been out there for a while already, if this was entirely down to a design fault then by now everyone would know about it and people would not touch them with a barge pole. The cars still move around the trade with no problems and their residuals are strong, no signs there then.
Would you like a new engine at your 24k service sir? Doesn't sound quite right somehow - maybe a TVR Tuscan would be more reliable after all!
Ivan
johnny senna said:
Holy crap. I hope you get this sorted out at reasonable cost. It makes me think that the extanded Porsche warranties are worth it.
i absolutely agree... i had a 996 that came out of original warranty and had it extended. cost me a grand, but in my opinion WELL worth it even though nothing went wrong. that money buys piece of mind. any job that needs doing is going to end up costing at least 500 notes minimum. i hada petrol pump go on the car whilst still under warranty. would have cost £800 if i had to fork out the cash myself. playing the 'all bad things happen in threes' game, i just wouldn't take the chance. i know this is no benefit to the orignal poor soul who posted this topic, but hopefully anyone else who is weighing up whether to take out an extended warranty will see it as a no brainer... if you've got the money to buy the car, you have the money to buy the warranty... JFDI...
well i've got an answer back from porsche today and it isnt as bad as i had at first feared. the engine will have to be stripped down as they said requiring 35 hours of labour and the new parts. porsche have offered to pay for the parts and pay 50% of labour for this as well as waiving the labour charge to fit the clutch and replace the oil seal. quoted about gbp 3k in total including the service and a few other bits. i'm still going to contact customer services myself on monday to try and squeeze a bit more from them but as i say it could have been a whole lot worse.
ninemeister said:
...but I cannot see how a Porsche with a genuine(?) 25k and full Porsche Service History(?) could possibly suffer such a failure.
Nearly always caused by clutch/flywheel imbalance, Porsche in their wisdom extended the distance between the flywheel assembly and the front main bearing on the 996 and any wobble causes the main bearing to fail due to crankshaft flex.
Basically because the 996 and Boxster engine has been redesigned under Japanese influence and 40 years of Porsche development and heritage has been thrown out of the door. IMHO the engines are so poorly designed that even Porsche will not risk the bottom ends on anything of power and therefore continue to use the 964 crankcase design for the GT3 & GT2 models 'cause the new design would fall appart in racing use.
Anyway (rant over), not many independents will touch the 996 engine as there are too many special assembly tools required to built the things, plus the fact that many parts are not available, so the sensible option is going to be to replace the engine.
>> Edited by ninemeister on Friday 5th March 00:40
Now that is interesting. Another reason to hang onto my 993. If I had room in my garage, I would be very tempted to buy another 993 and mothball it for later. (Permission from 'er indoors assumed of course.)
Well i've had some better news from my local opc yesterday. seems that as well as paying 50% of labour and all of parts i'm getting an extra £500 discount from both the opc and porsche uk for the work, including clutch and service so my faith has been restored in the marque. i have been offered a years warranty for close to a grand as well which i will take( i look at it as a free warranty 'cos of the extra discount). get car back next wednesday hopefully looking like new. cheers, kagey
kagey said:
Well i've had some better news from my local opc yesterday. seems that as well as paying 50% of labour and all of parts i'm getting an extra £500 discount from both the opc and porsche uk for the work, including clutch and service so my faith has been restored in the marque. i have been offered a years warranty for close to a grand as well which i will take( i look at it as a free warranty 'cos of the extra discount). get car back next wednesday hopefully looking like new. cheers, kagey
good news.
Now keep that warranty going!!!
I really hope porsche introduce a total care package rather like they do with the Boxster.
Say for 1500 quid it would cover warranty and servicing.
It proves again the value of warranty.
I extended the warranty on my GT2 for 2 years and is cost only £850 per year roughly. Compare this to the cost of an engine or gearbox and it's a no-brainer.
Anyone who reads GT Purely Porsche magazine will read this month that their 2003 GT2 required THREE engine replacements and that car has only done 10,000miles in total..............
Porsche are generally very good about cars that are out of warranty if the circumstances are right, but why take that chance. I cannot understand why anyone lets a warranty lapse on cars that cost between £40k and £100k...............
Guy
I'm honour bound to say I have also head great service from Porsche.
My 2000 Boxster S was four months outside warranty when a broken rear handbrake spring damaged the inside of one of the rear disc / hubs.
They sorted it all out at no charge.
'Just couldn't get them to contribute to the new set of discs it also needed .... Oh well !
My 2000 Boxster S was four months outside warranty when a broken rear handbrake spring damaged the inside of one of the rear disc / hubs.
They sorted it all out at no charge.
'Just couldn't get them to contribute to the new set of discs it also needed .... Oh well !
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