Main Dealers ouch!

[mr_tony]

Made the mistake of forsaking my independent after some questionable calls on the last service. Will go back, all is forgiven after the quote from the main dealers down the road...

New handbrake cable, handbrake unit and a new battery for a 745i..
Guess the cost...

[MidlandDan84]

Given the quote i had for an oil service, im guessing around £900.

[Digger]

£712.80p

[mr_tony]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

We have a winner.
Total cost 1400 quid (approx) inc Vat.

The breakdown is a little different -

Batery 220 quid
HAndbrake cables 350 quid
Handbrake control unit 450 quid
Labour and VAT 580 quid.

I'll be heading back to the independent, the serivce may be occasionally lacking and the guy on the phone may never quite know whats going on, but the parts and labour are a lot cheaper and the end result is the same...

[Devil2575]

That's criminal. What so special about a 7 series battery?

Trouble is I bet those parts are all BMW only which is going to make speciallists expensive too, although not as much.

Cars like this are going to be worthless in 10 years time...

[mr_tony]

Doh - labour only 380 quid then - it is 1400 all in...

[mr_tony]

Devil2575 said:

That's criminal. What so special about a 7 series battery?

Trouble is I bet those parts are all BMW only which is going to make speciallists expensive too, although not as much.

Cars like this are going to be worthless in 10 years time...

They are BMW only parts - so it's not likely you can get them on the cheap - only saving is labour which in this case is relatively low in terms of hours. I'd probably have saved a couple of hundred at an independent...

Next stop is new wiper blades. Bet that will make me wince also..

[mike325112]

mr_tony said:

Next stop is new wiper blades. Bet that will make me wince also..

Actually I found that main dealers are cheaper that Halfrauds etc for wipers.

or you could just search for Valeo on ebay....

[Pickled Piper]

mr_tony said:

Devil2575 said:

That's criminal. What so special about a 7 series battery?

Trouble is I bet those parts are all BMW only which is going to make speciallists expensive too, although not as much.

Cars like this are going to be worthless in 10 years time...

They are BMW only parts - so it's not likely you can get them on the cheap - only saving is labour which in this case is relatively low in terms of hours. I'd probably have saved a couple of hundred at an independent...

Next stop is new wiper blades. Bet that will make me wince also..

Don't be so sure about the parts. I had the suspension rebuilt on my E39 recently, new shocks, bushes, arms, balljoints you name it. I bought all of them from GSF. I stuck to good quality names likes Sachs, Boge, ZF etc. The parts came in at about 50 to 70% of what I would have paid at a BMW dealer. The chap who did the suspension work confirmed that each and every part I had purchased was identical to the original part on the car. This was verified by the parts numbers and identification details embossed on the original parts etc.

pp

pp

[Pickled Piper]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Hi toxicnerve. That's not the case. I know because I work in the industry. The car manufacturers don't make any of the parts, they just assemble the car. All the parts with very few exceptions will be produced by component manufactures. The supply agreement with the component suppliers will oblige them to supply parts to the car factory, supply spares to the dealers and very often after a period of time to supply the same parts to the independent aftermarket parts retailers, like GSf and Eurocarparts amongst others. The pricing to the independent parts suppliers is not controlled by the car companies. This is why you can buy a shock asborber from a BMW dealer made by Boge (in a BMW box) for £100 and you can buy the very same part from GSF in a Boge box for between £50 and £70.

The trick is to be able identify the genuine parts as opposed to the copies. I've found the same as above for many types of filter, brake pads and discs, electrical components, cables and all manner of other parts.

pp

[stockhatcher]

Pickled Piper said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Hi toxicnerve. That's not the case. I know because I work in the industry. The car manufacturers don't make any of the parts, they just assemble the car. All the parts with very few exceptions will be produced by component manufactures. The supply agreement with the component suppliers will oblige them to supply parts to the car factory, supply spares to the dealers and very often after a period of time to supply the same parts to the independent aftermarket parts retailers, like GSf and Eurocarparts amongst others. The pricing to the independent parts suppliers is not controlled by the car companies. This is why you can buy a shock asborber from a BMW dealer made by Boge (in a BMW box) for £100 and you can buy the very same part from GSF in a Boge box for between £50 and £70.

The trick is to be able identify the genuine parts as opposed to the copies. I've found the same as above for many types of filter, brake pads and discs, electrical components, cables and all manner of other parts.

pp

to get into it in a little more detail, the car parts are generally supplied by third parties who supply the factory at one price and the aftermarket at another. generally speaking the intellectual property for the design of the part rests with the vehicle manufacturer and therefore a supplier would be unable to sell outside of the manufacturer controlled routes to market. Block exemption steps in at three years and gates then open to allow the sale of parts to third parties. However many OE parts arrive at the likes of unipart/GSF earlier than this as the parts supplier gets around copyright issues through removing any identification on the part and selling it 'out the back door' To further compound the issue the VM actually pays for this as generally a quote will asked to supply the factory with say 20,000 units but the production runs are in batches of 6k. Therefore do they make 18 or 24000? Of course they make 24000 all paid for by the VM, s the extra 4k are sold at 100% profit, which is another reason they arrive on the aftermarket cheaper. In fact it is not unknown for the supplier to make his profit from the sale of this 'over production.' As an aside part number changes generally occur when either a new supplier is prodcuing the part or a design improvement has occurred.

Finally the VM will own the copyright and the tooling but outsource it to somewhere cheap to make it, and they loose control. VM's have teams of auditors who audit their dealer network for copy parts and confiscate them. If they could gain access to GSF etc they do the same to them, and half the problem would go away ( from a VM perspective)

[mr_tony]

Right back again, the plot thickens,,

Mrs T phoned the garage today to confirm pick up for tomorrow (as agreed - not because of work ongoing, but unable to collect the car today due to other committments).

The dealer then informs us today that the 'amplifier' has blown and we'll need another one, and it needs to be programmed - parts an labour adding an additional 800 quid.

understandably mrs t went ballistic at them as nothing was amiss when we dropped the car in, so the inference is they have broken something while farting about. The garage suggested they would try and get a contribution to the parts from BMW UK.

Doesn't ring true to me - either this is a way of fobbing off a very upset and irate mrs t, or it's a tacit admission that they have ba**sed up and broken something.

To be honest I'm not clear what part this might be (or how it could come to fail while working on the handbrake assembly). I'll have to try and decipher that tomorrow in the meantime I'm off to the pub.

Bottom line is I feel that it's quite possible the garage are attempting to take advantage of my good lady wife by constantly adding new 'issues' to sort to the list in an attempt to bump up the cost in a rather cynical way.

Anybody know what the garage might be referring to when they talk about an 'amplifier'? I'm assuming they mean the control unit for the iDrive or similar. I'll be on the blower to them in the morning to 'have a word' and see if I can work out what the hell they are going on about.

I guess this just goes to show that your local specialist may sometimes bimble on a bit, be a bit forgetful and take days to get parts instead of hours, but those frustrations are minor when they are as honest as they come and do what they promise.

As it goes, with the purchase of 2 new cars on the horizon this year I'm suddenly finding the idea of a BMW less and less appealing if this is the kind of afterservice I'll be getting..

Edited by mr_tony on Friday 21st May 17:53

[4rephill]

Do people still not realise why the BMW 7 series is such a bargain on the used market?.

Brand new, a 745i was how much?, £60K~£80K?. So BMW priced the parts at a level they felt that people paying over £60K for a car could easily afford.

The problem is though, the market for used 7 series is not that big, for most people the 7 is too large and thirsty for their family needs, so they fall out of bed price wise. Suddenly, people who were thinking of a 3 or 5 series think: "Hey!, I can get a lot more car for the same money with a 7 series".

So they buy the car and all is well until something goes wrong and then they discover a big reason for the bargain purchase price, BMW 7 series parts cost a damn sight more than the parts for a three series because they are still priced as parts for a £60K car and that's when the complaints about BMW prices come flying in. People want to run a £60K car on the same budget as a £15K Ford Mondeo.



As for the OP's amplifier fault, the thing I find interesting is that BMW stand accused of damaging the part to generate additional work:

mr_tony said:

nothing was amiss when we dropped the car in, so the inference is they have broken something while farting about.

But then this statement appears:

mr_tony said:

To be honest I'm not clear what part this might be...

If you don't know what the part is or what it does, how do you know it wasn't broken already?.

[5678]

mr_tony said:

Right back again, the plot thickens,,

Mrs T phoned the garage today to confirm pick up for tomorrow (as agreed - not because of work ongoing, but unable to collect the car today due to other committments).

The dealer then informs us today that the 'amplifier' has blown and we'll need another one, and it needs to be programmed - parts an labour adding an additional 800 quid.

understandably mrs t went ballistic at them as nothing was amiss when we dropped the car in, so the inference is they have broken something while farting about. The garage suggested they would try and get a contribution to the parts from BMW UK.

Doesn't ring true to me - either this is a way of fobbing off a very upset and irate mrs t, or it's a tacit admission that they have ba**sed up and broken something.

To be honest I'm not clear what part this might be (or how it could come to fail while working on the handbrake assembly). I'll have to try and decipher that tomorrow in the meantime I'm off to the pub.

Bottom line is I feel that it's quite possible the garage are attempting to take advantage of my good lady wife by constantly adding new 'issues' to sort to the list in an attempt to bump up the cost in a rather cynical way.

Anybody know what the garage might be referring to when they talk about an 'amplifier'? I'm assuming they mean the control unit for the iDrive or similar. I'll be on the blower to them in the morning to 'have a word' and see if I can work out what the hell they are going on about.

I guess this just goes to show that your local specialist may sometimes bimble on a bit, be a bit forgetful and take days to get parts instead of hours, but those frustrations are minor when they are as honest as they come and do what they promise.

As it goes, with the purchase of 2 new cars on the horizon this year I'm suddenly finding the idea of a BMW less and less appealing if this is the kind of afterservice I'll be getting..

Edited by mr_tony on Friday 21st May 17:53

Does the car have Logic 7 or any form of option stereo? From the term "amplifier" I would assume it was to do with the stereo.
Out of interest, why are you taking it to a main dealer if it doesn't have warranty?

[gizlaroc]

4rephill said:

As for the OP's amplifier fault, the thing I find interesting is that BMW stand accused of damaging the part to generate additional work:

mr_tony said:

nothing was amiss when we dropped the car in, so the inference is they have broken something while farting about.

But then this statement appears:

mr_tony said:

To be honest I'm not clear what part this might be...

If you don't know what the part is or what it does, how do you know it wasn't broken already?.

I don't think he meant they broke it on purpose, I think he meant they probably broke it while messing around with the car.

The amp on these cars can fry if you keep shorting the negative terminal on the battery, you have to be careful, I always pull the fuse on the amp and all the idrive when unplugging the battery.


If it is the amp for the stereo it is a simple test.
Was the radio working before you went in?? If yes they have fried it.


Really is as simple as that.

[Pickled Piper]

stockhatcher said:

Pickled Piper said:

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Hi toxicnerve. That's not the case. I know because I work in the industry. The car manufacturers don't make any of the parts, they just assemble the car. All the parts with very few exceptions will be produced by component manufactures. The supply agreement with the component suppliers will oblige them to supply parts to the car factory, supply spares to the dealers and very often after a period of time to supply the same parts to the independent aftermarket parts retailers, like GSf and Eurocarparts amongst others. The pricing to the independent parts suppliers is not controlled by the car companies. This is why you can buy a shock asborber from a BMW dealer made by Boge (in a BMW box) for £100 and you can buy the very same part from GSF in a Boge box for between £50 and £70.

The trick is to be able identify the genuine parts as opposed to the copies. I've found the same as above for many types of filter, brake pads and discs, electrical components, cables and all manner of other parts.

pp

to get into it in a little more detail, the car parts are generally supplied by third parties who supply the factory at one price and the aftermarket at another. generally speaking the intellectual property for the design of the part rests with the vehicle manufacturer and therefore a supplier would be unable to sell outside of the manufacturer controlled routes to market. Block exemption steps in at three years and gates then open to allow the sale of parts to third parties. However many OE parts arrive at the likes of unipart/GSF earlier than this as the parts supplier gets around copyright issues through removing any identification on the part and selling it 'out the back door' To further compound the issue the VM actually pays for this as generally a quote will asked to supply the factory with say 20,000 units but the production runs are in batches of 6k. Therefore do they make 18 or 24000? Of course they make 24000 all paid for by the VM, s the extra 4k are sold at 100% profit, which is another reason they arrive on the aftermarket cheaper. In fact it is not unknown for the supplier to make his profit from the sale of this 'over production.' As an aside part number changes generally occur when either a new supplier is prodcuing the part or a design improvement has occurred.

Finally the VM will own the copyright and the tooling but outsource it to somewhere cheap to make it, and they loose control. VM's have teams of auditors who audit their dealer network for copy parts and confiscate them. If they could gain access to GSF etc they do the same to them, and half the problem would go away ( from a VM perspective)

Thanks for filling in the gaps Stockhatcher. I now understand why the VW labeling was removed from some parts I bought for a Golf a few years back. The part was identical otherwise.

pp

[mr_tony]

4rephill said:

Do people still not realise why the BMW 7 series is such a bargain on the used market?.

Brand new, a 745i was how much?, £60K~£80K?. So BMW priced the parts at a level they felt that people paying over £60K for a car could easily afford.

The problem is though, the market for used 7 series is not that big, for most people the 7 is too large and thirsty for their family needs, so they fall out of bed price wise. Suddenly, people who were thinking of a 3 or 5 series think: "Hey!, I can get a lot more car for the same money with a 7 series".

So they buy the car and all is well until something goes wrong and then they discover a big reason for the bargain purchase price, BMW 7 series parts cost a damn sight more than the parts for a three series because they are still priced as parts for a £60K car and that's when the complaints about BMW prices come flying in. People want to run a £60K car on the same budget as a £15K Ford Mondeo.

Have to say I completely agree with you. Am I complaining about the costs of running an old executive barge? No. Am I reminding people here that your local independent is far better value than a main dealer - Yes. I think if you check my profile you'll see that I have plenty of experience running cars in this price range so the costs are not something I'm foreign to. Am I rather suprised by the massive difference in price AND service to my local independent - yes I am. If I'm paying top dollar, I expect a high level of service and I think thats perfectly reasonable.

4rephill said:

As for the OP's amplifier fault, the thing I find interesting is that BMW stand accused of damaging the part to generate additional work:

Well I'm certainly pretty convinced the broke the part. Have they done it on purpose - probably not. Have they rather tried to fob off my wife with what seems to be a poor level of sketchy information - yes, and that does make me suspicious they aren't being completely open with us for some reason.

4rephill said:

mr_tony said:

nothing was amiss when we dropped the car in, so the inference is they have broken something while farting about.

But then this statement appears:

mr_tony said:

To be honest I'm not clear what part this might be...

If you don't know what the part is or what it does, how do you know it wasn't broken already?.

Part wasn't broken already as the garage tell me it's impossible to start / turn over the car without the part working. Given we drove the car to the garage and left it fully operational in their care I would say the part was working when it was placed in their care. So regardless of knowing exactly what the part was, it was 100% clear it was working when left in their care, given that they had already replaced the handbrake (electronic) after having the car for 3 days by the time they then phoned us to tell us about this broken part I think its pretty clear also that the part was working during the time they were replacing the handbrake. I think you'll agree that this is perfecly logical.

To clarify further, having spoken in more detail with mrs_t this is indeed the amp connected to the stereo / iDrive system - I wasn't able to verify this yesterday before posting - hence why i was open about not being totally sure in case one of the BMW experts here could have offered alternative info. Having confirmed this is the audio amp, it seems a pretty good bet that it has been killed off by incorrect fittment of the new battery as already suggested by another poster here.

Now of course I cannot prove this 100%, but I think you'd have to agree that stereo amps don't just 'blow up' (garages words) when not connected to a current, and that the most likely scenario for one to go kaput would be when the car electrics are worked on (e.g. when changing the power supply). I think on this basis I have a pretty good case with the garage that they are most likely responsible for breaking the part.

Furthermore as the garage has already offered to consult with BMW UK to have them contribute to the part cost as 'good will' I think you'll agree that they are tacitly admitting responsibility.

Edited by mr_tony on Saturday 22 May 10:29

[4rephill]

mr_tony said:

4rephill said:

Do people still not realise why the BMW 7 series is such a bargain on the used market?.

Brand new, a 745i was how much?, £60K~£80K?. So BMW priced the parts at a level they felt that people paying over £60K for a car could easily afford.

The problem is though, the market for used 7 series is not that big, for most people the 7 is too large and thirsty for their family needs, so they fall out of bed price wise. Suddenly, people who were thinking of a 3 or 5 series think: "Hey!, I can get a lot more car for the same money with a 7 series".

So they buy the car and all is well until something goes wrong and then they discover a big reason for the bargain purchase price, BMW 7 series parts cost a damn sight more than the parts for a three series because they are still priced as parts for a £60K car and that's when the complaints about BMW prices come flying in. People want to run a £60K car on the same budget as a £15K Ford Mondeo.

Have to say I completely agree with you. Am I complaining about the costs of running an old executive barge? No. Am I reminding people here that your local independent is far better value than a main dealer - Yes. I think if you check my profile you'll see that I have plenty of experience running cars in this price range so the costs are not something I'm foreign to. Am I rather suprised by the massive difference in price AND service to my local independent - yes I am. If I'm paying top dollar, I expect a high level of service and I think thats perfectly reasonable.

4rephill said:

As for the OP's amplifier fault, the thing I find interesting is that BMW stand accused of damaging the part to generate additional work:

Well I'm certainly pretty convinced the broke the part. Have they done it on purpose - probably not. Have they rather tried to fob off my wife with what seems to be a poor level of sketchy information - yes, and that does make me suspicious they aren't being completely open with us for some reason.

4rephill said:

mr_tony said:

nothing was amiss when we dropped the car in, so the inference is they have broken something while farting about.

But then this statement appears:

mr_tony said:

To be honest I'm not clear what part this might be...

If you don't know what the part is or what it does, how do you know it wasn't broken already?.

Part wasn't broken already as the garage tell me it's impossible to start / turn over the car without the part working. Given we drove the car to the garage and left it fully operational in their care I would say the part was working when it was placed in their care. So regardless of knowing exactly what the part was, it was 100% clear it was working when left in their care, given that they had already replaced the handbrake (electronic) after having the car for 3 days by the time they then phoned us to tell us about this broken part I think its pretty clear also that the part was working during the time they were replacing the handbrake. I think you'll agree that this is perfecly logical.

To clarify further, having spoken in more detail with mrs_t this is indeed the amp connected to the stereo / iDrive system - I wasn't able to verify this yesterday before posting - hence why i was open about not being totally sure in case one of the BMW experts here could have offered alternative info. Having confirmed this is the audio amp, it seems a pretty good bet that it has been killed off by incorrect fittment of the new battery as already suggested by another poster here.

Now of course I cannot prove this 100%, but I think you'd have to agree that stereo amps don't just 'blow up' (garages words) when not connected to a current, and that the most likely scenario for one to go kaput would be when the car electrics are worked on (e.g. when changing the power supply). I think on this basis I have a pretty good case with the garage that they are most likely responsible for breaking the part.

Furthermore as the garage has already offered to consult with BMW UK to have them contribute to the part cost as 'good will' I think you'll agree that they are tacitly admitting responsibility.

Edited by mr_tony on Saturday 22 May 10:29

Sorry if I caused any offence, that was not intended.

On the price differential between a main dealer and an independant, your independant doesn't have an expensive showroom to run so can charge less as he has less overheads. The dealership on the other hand has to pay for a lot more staff, higher rates, larger electrical bills and gas bills etc.,etc. Trust Me, the car sales don't pay to run the dealership, the service department does.

However, due to the recent financial issues, alot of dealers are now doing service work for the same cost as an independent to try and get some of the older cars back to the dealers (doesn't sound like your dealership is one of them though).



BMW amplifiers are known to go faulty, have done ever since the E36 came out. However, I had forgotten that the the latter 7 series will have it linked to the I-drive and therefore cause starting problems so I apologise for My mis-interpretation, I was thinking of just the stereo alone.

As you have said (and another poster has said), it does sound as if they have blown it when fitting the new battery and are therefore liable (rookie mistake of connecting the the wrong cable first perhaps?).

I hope the goodwill gesture will extend to covering the entire cost, with BMW though, you never know, sometimes it depends on how well they know you (I've known Mine for 23years and they are incredibly helpful!).

Hope you get it all sorted to your satisfaction and again, My apologies for any offence caused.

[mr_tony]

4rephill said:

Hope you get it all sorted to your satisfaction and again, My apologies for any offence caused.

None caused and none taken Your post did make me realise that more info from me was required for context I've posted enough on the topic of 'just because it's cheap to buy doesn't mean it's cheap to run' in other forum areas here, so last thing I want to do is give the wrong impression

All good points regarding the main dealer / vs independent. Fingers crossed BMW make the right gesture regarding the amp. I'll update the thread later in the week when I know more...

Edited by mr_tony on Sunday 23 May 20:00

[mr_tony]

Right - just to round this out...
BMW wouldn't provide any good will for the blown amp.
The dealer claims point blank the part somehow failed and couldn't be reprogrammed and wouldn't admit any wrongdoing.

So we're left picking up the bill with a bad taste in our mouths, knowing that in all likelyhood that the dealer has inadvertantly fried the amp while changing the battery and then charged us top whack to replace it.

So lesson learned - I'll be sticking with my indy who might take a week to get a part sometimes, but is straight up honest and has never let me down..

Sad really - I'd heard good things about this particular BMW dealership and avoided one closer to home on the basis of damming reports from friends, but if these guys are one of the better ones then my new cars this year ain't going to be BMW's that will need main dealer servicing. No point having the ultimate driving machine if the dealers view service time as carte blanche to rip you off.

Total cost to get handbrake cable and battery changed just over 2400 quid...