The Serious Search is on.... Which BEC should I buy??

[kitcarmk]

I have been searching on and off for well over a year now for a BEC Seven style (really like the MNR) or closed body kit car (Phoenix/Fury)... Unfortunately decision making has proved to be a real challenge! I would love to build myself but dont have the time and would probably not complete it before reaching pensionable age!

I have found several cars recently on PH and wondered what everyone out there thinks?

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1586430.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1491656.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1617508.htm
http://www.kitcar-trader.co.uk/detail.php?siteid=1...

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1723338.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1672802.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1099711.htm
http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1699782.htm

I would also be very interested to understand why some people go for dry sump conversions and others not? Some say that the R1 needs it, others dont?

I am keen to finalise my decision as soon as possible to get some use this summer and would greatly appreciate any advice, guidance, facts, opinions on the cars above or general specifications of BEC's that might help me to make my decision.

Also if there are any owners in and around the Milton Keynes area, who can advise on local clubs, drives or meets it would be much appreciated.

Thanks in advance guys...

Cheers
Mick

[Stubby Pete]

The oil pick up for the R1 engine means that you can use a baffled sump and slightly overfill the oil with no problems. I don't know too much about the other engines but from what I understand, they are not quite as easy to modify for car use.

Personally, I would let the engine have some movement too, direct bolting to the chassis of a bike still allows a fair bit of twist (due to the chassis) but in a decent kit car this is lost and more stress will be placed on some parts.

Generally speaking, I think that the R1 provides the best solution, the Hayabusa is twice the price and does not rev as well but does provide more torque. In the real world, very little difference on a N/A unit. However if you want to go mental and turbo the engine, the Hayabusa can be built to produce 500bhp!!! The older Fireblade engines (893 IIRC) are reliable but do not produce the power of the more modern and slightly larger capacity engine.

As a ballpark figure:
Fireblade 130bhp
R1 carbs 150bhp (Although mine has been dynoed at 175bhp)
R1 injection 145bhp (lower due to emmission regs but easily tuned with a new electronic system)
Hayabusa 170bhp
I'm sure that someone will corect these figures if I'm out slightly

PS YHM

[jeffw]

I prefer the Phoenix to the Sevens (but then I have one) and of those the red one is the nicest finished. The full cage grey one would be an option as well but you need to practise getting in and out. The purple one is fine except I don't like the colour, lack of light covers and the the rollbar which looks next to useless. So all in all the Red Phoenix

[Major Stare]

R1 advise.... from my personal experiance.... the 5PW R1 (2003) only needs a baffled sump for track use and does not loose oill through the breather.

What ever engine you get, uprate the clutch to a Barnett item and use the correct oil.

[Furyblade_Lee]

With the 2003 r1 i use std Yamaha clutch plates and Barnett race springs from PDQ (£16). Chamge them every springtime and it will be fine (30 minute job). I just use Castrol Power Racing 5w 30 i think? The sump does need a baffle but thats it. You can dry sump or accusump any BEC if you wish but its a waste of money and extra weight if its not necessary. The good old 893 blade was my favorite engine, just chuck it in (with the exception of a Dynojet kit) and away you go!

[kitcarmk]

Thanks for all the advice so far guys, much appreciated.

I have now seen the following car listed and am very interested in purchasing, but have a few concerns relating to the fact that the car hasnt been SVA'd and I have no experience of this - would appreciate advice and guidance, things to look out for or be aware of?

http://www.pistonheads.com/sales/1740672.htm

Also any advice on what to look out for in general would be appreciated, there are some pretty good pics on the advert, but I have more if anyone wants to offer an expert opinion on anything.

All advice and guidance much appreciated.

Cheers
Mick

[jason61c]

I know that car and engine very well and it would make a great purchase, its only just been completed too.

[rdodger]

That looks like a lovely car.

But..... How does the IVA work when it's an amatuer build by someone else?

Is there a way around it?

[kitcarmk]

The car looks great, the build quality looks great as does the specification and components.... my only concern is getting it through the SVA/IVA process and getting it road legal and preferably not on a Q plate... Thats the kind of advice i really need.. or is there someone out there that is prepared to get it through SVA at a sensible price?

[Stubby Pete]

I'm not fully au fait with the IVA so take what I have to say as advice not gospel!

You will need all the build photos to demonstrate that the car was "amateur" built to qualify for the less stringent level of IVA, original receipts will help and sounds like the vendor has all of those. Just one thing I can see from the pics, no side repeaters and front indicators are too enclosed to be visible from the side.

[singlecoil]

You need to ask yourself why the IVA has not been undertaken by the seller. Is it just the £450 test fee, with a probably £90 retest (and the dashboard and immobiliser)?

It would seem a bit daft, on the face of it, for the guy not to do the IVA and then sell it as a car ready to drive away.

However, what it boils down to is either time or money, or more likely a combination of both. What's the chances of an easy pass- or unanticipated difficulties, and balance that against the asking price compared to what the price would be if it was ready to drive away. I daresay you've been watching the prices of various cars very closely, so you should know what price that would fetch if it was road legal.

My personal view- the price might be fair (builders always lose money when they sell, so what it cost him isn't really relevant) but it wouldn't make my nipples explode with delight.

[jason61c]

singlecoil said:

You need to ask yourself why the IVA has not been undertaken by the seller. Is it just the £450 test fee, with a probably £90 retest (and the dashboard and immobiliser)?

It would seem a bit daft, on the face of it, for the guy not to do the IVA and then sell it as a car ready to drive away.

However, what it boils down to is either time or money, or more likely a combination of both. What's the chances of an easy pass- or unanticipated difficulties, and balance that against the asking price compared to what the price would be if it was ready to drive away. I daresay you've been watching the prices of various cars very closely, so you should know what price that would fetch if it was road legal.

My personal view- the price might be fair (builders always lose money when they sell, so what it cost him isn't really relevant) but it wouldn't make my nipples explode with delight.

He's only just finished the build and any IVA bits shouldn't be too bad at all as its an enclosed body so that covers loads of headaches. A road registered fury with a Hayabusa engine would be a pretty penny more.

[singlecoil]

jason61c said:

singlecoil said:

You need to ask yourself why the IVA has not been undertaken by the seller. Is it just the £450 test fee, with a probably £90 retest (and the dashboard and immobiliser)?

It would seem a bit daft, on the face of it, for the guy not to do the IVA and then sell it as a car ready to drive away.

However, what it boils down to is either time or money, or more likely a combination of both. What's the chances of an easy pass- or unanticipated difficulties, and balance that against the asking price compared to what the price would be if it was ready to drive away. I daresay you've been watching the prices of various cars very closely, so you should know what price that would fetch if it was road legal.

My personal view- the price might be fair (builders always lose money when they sell, so what it cost him isn't really relevant) but it wouldn't make my nipples explode with delight.

He's only just finished the build and any IVA bits shouldn't be too bad at all as its an enclosed body so that covers loads of headaches. A road registered fury with a Hayabusa engine would be a pretty penny more.

Don't get me wrong, the car in question could be the bargain of the century, all I'm saying is the buyer has to ask himself, not the owner, why he hasn't put it in for the IVA himself? There's no point in asking the owner because his answer may be the absolute perfect truth, or what he believes to be the truth, or he may even be not telling all the truth (although I agree that's unlikely, though could apply in the case of other unfinished projects).

As to will it pass the IVA easily? Well, forget the open/closed bodywork issue, those are easy and cheap to fix, but what about if the exhaust is too loud? Or it doesn't self centre to the satisfaction of the tester, or it won't pass the emissions test, or the brake balance is wrong, or the fuel pipes aren't properly marked, or something else or something else and so on?

One other point, unless the engine and gearbox has been rebuilt to as new, and there are documents to prove that, it seems to me this car is going to end up with a 'Q' registration, as there is no donor car for an age related registration, and the second hand engine rules out a new registration.

It mustn't be seen that I am putting this car down, I'm not, I'm simply making points that may or may not apply.

Edited by singlecoil on Sunday 6th June 08:18

[Paul Drawmer]

On that car, provided you have all the receipts etc, then a 'Q' plate will not devalue it at all.

[jason61c]

Its got a live axel so it can't have anything but a Q I think?

[singlecoil]

jason61c said:

Its got a live axel so it can't have anything but a Q I think?

I'd not heard that one myself, as long as the axle was new it should be OK, but I don't know if there is anybody who knows absolutely all the answers with kit cars and the various regulations and requirements.

[jason61c]

To be honest I think alot of it comes down to a builders 'receipt' making ability! its got the V5 so he could try and argue that the engine/box/electrics/ecu are from a donor so an age related plate or that its all new bar the engine and a get a 2010/11 plate.

There are cars on ebay saying that they'll have a new plate but have refurbed engine's/diffs etc so it must come down to a local DVLA's willingness to check how original receipts are.

[singlecoil]

jason61c said:

To be honest I think alot of it comes down to a builders 'receipt' making ability! its got the V5 so he could try and argue that the engine/box/electrics/ecu are from a donor so an age related plate or that its all new bar the engine and a get a 2010/11 plate.

There are cars on ebay saying that they'll have a new plate but have refurbed engine's/diffs etc so it must come down to a local DVLA's willingness to check how original receipts are.

I've had another look at the advert, and I now see it says the axle is rebuilt, so to get a new plate the engine etc would bend to be brand new, in other words the receipt would need to be from Suzuki or a Suzuki dealer. I agree it all depends on how much checking is done, I've seen loads of new registration kit cars that don't comply with regulations (Cobras are a good example).

[progers63]

I am surprised that no-one has pointed out that the car has an inappropriate diff ratio for the Hayabusa engine. At 10,500 revs it will top out at around 107mph. Busa's typically need a 3.38 or even 3.14 ratio, especially if you plan going near a track. It needs to be geared for ~ 130mph in top to make a sensible track or road car.

Most track Busa's also have a dry sump system to combat oil surge. I have no idea how good the Extreme wet sump is, its rarely used in my experience. Probably OK for the road but I would be wary on track, even with the accusump.

Its not quite the bargain people think it is, especially as it has not passed the IVA test. It looks well built though.

Food for thought

- Paul

[Sam_68]

progers63 said:

I am surprised that no-one has pointed out that the car has an inappropriate diff ratio for the Hayabusa engine. At 10,500 revs it will top out at around 107mph. Busa's typically need a 3.38 or even 3.14 ratio...

Indeed... and as it's an English live axle you're going to be able to just drop in a Sierra diff of the correct ratio.

The tallest CWP ratio you can get for the English axle is 3.54:1, and they're like hen's teeth these days.

£9.5K for a live axle car with completely inappropriate gearing and no IVA?