Holiday Entitlement Query

[blueedge]

I have a potential problem which I am hoping to get some help with from the knowledgeable folk here.

I am leaving my current employer at the end of this month and it has been brought to my attention by my co-worker that the company may be trying to deduct wages from me because I have used all my holiday for the year already. Now aside from the fact that I haven't, which is a separate issue, are they actually allowed to do this?

Technically I get 25 days per annum plus Bank Holidays, and nowhere does it say, nor have I ever been told, that I can't take all those 25 days in the first 2 months, 4 months etc. I made a conscious effort to use all my holiday before I handed in my notice last month because as far as I knew I was allowed to and so didn't want them to go to waste.

To add there is no company handbook to consult and the company I was originally employed with got liquidated a couple of years ago and all the assets were transferred to the newly created company that I am now employed by. I never actually signed a new contract with this newly formed company however.

Thank you in advance for any help.

[Liszt]

Generally it is pro rata'd. so your 25 days would be divided by 12 and timesd by the number of months in this years holiday calendar. So if it runs january to december then you would be entitled to to 25/12 * 5 or roughly 10 days. If you have taken your 25 then I would expect to see 15 days held back.

Yep its tough but thats the way it is.

[blueedge]

Liszt said:

Generally it is pro rata'd. so your 25 days would be divided by 12 and timesd by the number of months in this years holiday calendar. So if it runs january to december then you would be entitled to to 25/12 * 5 or roughly 10 days. If you have taken your 25 then I would expect to see 15 days held back.

Yep its tough but thats the way it is.

Well this is the other issue, I've not actually taken 25, I've taken 20, but my boss decided to change the holiday allowance from 25 to 20 a couple of months back, and then announced it's always been like that! Despite me having an email from our accountant stating that it's 25 days a year. An employee who left last month actually used the holiday she had left for the remainder of the year to take a weeks terminal leave, so I'm a little miffed as to why they're trying to apply different rules to me. Thank you for your help.

[NoNeed]

You accrue holidays as you work unless your contract says otherwise. your employer can take back time not accrued.

[blindswelledrat]

The accruing bit is true Im afraid.
As to 20 or 25 it depends on your contract not an email from your accountant although for the record a company must legally pay you a minimum of 20 days plus 5 days for bank holidays now,

[Dupont666]

blueedge said:

Liszt said:

Generally it is pro rata'd. so your 25 days would be divided by 12 and timesd by the number of months in this years holiday calendar. So if it runs january to december then you would be entitled to to 25/12 * 5 or roughly 10 days. If you have taken your 25 then I would expect to see 15 days held back.

Yep its tough but thats the way it is.

Well this is the other issue, I've not actually taken 25, I've taken 20, but my boss decided to change the holiday allowance from 25 to 20 a couple of months back, and then announced it's always been like that! Despite me having an email from our accountant stating that it's 25 days a year. An employee who left last month actually used the holiday she had left for the remainder of the year to take a weeks terminal leave, so I'm a little miffed as to why they're trying to apply different rules to me. Thank you for your help.

but did she lose a weeks pay instead?

[blueedge]

Thanks for all the responses and information, much appreciated.

blindswelledrat said:

The accruing bit is true Im afraid.
As to 20 or 25 it depends on your contract not an email from your accountant although for the record a company must legally pay you a minimum of 20 days plus 5 days for bank holidays now,

Am I correct in thinking unless I sign a newer document stating a change to my holiday allowance in a contract then the existing allowance still stands though? Otherwise there would be nothing to stop an employer taking you on and stating you get 40 days off a year, and then 2 months later saying actually we're changing it to 20.

My original contract stated 20 days per year plus one for every year year of employment, and I have been here over 5 and a half years which means I should get 25 days.

Dupont666 said:

but did she lose a weeks pay instead?

Nope, didn't lose out at all. I have also confirmed this again with her.

musclecarmad said:

yeah you are knackered.

otherwise everyone would resign in say february after having had the whole of january on holiday having a piss up.

it's pro rata'd so if you have used 20 days in 5 months then you 'owe' them some holiday so your pay will be docked accordingly

Fair enough, I can see the logic in that.

On a related note what about if you say only use 7 days of your holiday in a year due to work commitments, should your employers pay you for those unused days or at least let you carry them across? Or is it a case of hard luck for not using them?

Thanks again

[Mattt]

Wouldn't it be pro-rata'd off of the statutory minimum of 28 days (inc bank holidays)?

I know my company gives 25 days + b/h but uses 28 as the basis of calculation for pro-rata.

[blueedge]

musclecarmad said:

good luck

Thank you! I have a had a lot of issues over the years with losing holiday almost every year from this company, either because they've decided to change what I can carry across, initially no limits - then 7 days - then 5 days and now none, or a reduction in my entitlement with no prior warning. We'll see what happens though.

[Dupont666]

blueedge said:

musclecarmad said:

good luck

Thank you! I have a had a lot of issues over the years with losing holiday almost every year from this company, either because they've decided to change what I can carry across, initially no limits - then 7 days - then 5 days and now none, or a reduction in my entitlement with no prior warning. We'll see what happens though.

Or do what I used to do... ask when they can be taken, when told Im needed there wait... Remind boss that I either need a lot taking off or I will need to take them off after current critical project is finished (always Q4)... finish project and then get told im still needed and then ask the boss when I should take them and if Im not allowed to carry them across start doing 3/4 day weeks or get paid for them...

Myself and a colleague took the pretty much 3/4 day weeks for november and december mcuh to my bosses annoyance... got told to stop taking them like that and I suggested he should find a solution to this always on cirtical projects all year and then getting asked not to take them but not being paid or allowed to take them over...

He had to put up with 3 of the team doing it every year, but it was that or the solution which we suggested and he flatly refused was for us to block book a month off...

Ah those were the days fighting with the boss, who incidentally would take a holiday of 3 weeks but only give 4 days notice...

Glad im not in that situation anymore.

[blueedge]

Dupont666 said:

Or do what I used to do... ask when they can be taken, when told Im needed there wait... Remind boss that I either need a lot taking off or I will need to take them off after current critical project is finished (always Q4)... finish project and then get told im still needed and then ask the boss when I should take them and if Im not allowed to carry them across start doing 3/4 day weeks or get paid for them...

Myself and a colleague took the pretty much 3/4 day weeks for november and december mcuh to my bosses annoyance... got told to stop taking them like that and I suggested he should find a solution to this always on cirtical projects all year and then getting asked not to take them but not being paid or allowed to take them over...

He had to put up with 3 of the team doing it every year, but it was that or the solution which we suggested and he flatly refused was for us to block book a month off...

Ah those were the days fighting with the boss, who incidentally would take a holiday of 3 weeks but only give 4 days notice...

Glad im not in that situation anymore.

Sounds similar to what I ended up doing, couldn't take holiday all year but couldn't carry much across, so ended up like you working 3/4 day weeks for the whole of November and December, which my boss got really irritated with and told me I couldn't do, essentially saying you can't have your holiday entitlement. This was then followed by me constantly being referred to as a "part-timer" from then on because I'd been working 3/4 day weeks!

Also similarly he would announce the Friday before that he was taking the following week off, and yet if you gave him a months notice of yourself going on holiday he'd then deny any knowledge of it once you were on holiday.

[blindswelledrat]

blueedge said:

.

blindswelledrat said:

The accruing bit is true Im afraid.
As to 20 or 25 it depends on your contract not an email from your accountant although for the record a company must legally pay you a minimum of 20 days plus 5 days for bank holidays now,

Am I correct in thinking unless I sign a newer document stating a change to my holiday allowance in a contract then the existing allowance still stands though? Otherwise there would be nothing to stop an employer taking you on and stating you get 40 days off a year, and then 2 months later saying actually we're changing it to 20.

My original contract stated 20 days per year plus one for every year year of employment, and I have been here over 5 and a half years which means I should get 25 days.

Its a difficult one.
If they have given you nothing at all since that original one, then 25 is indeed your entitlement.
If they have given you revised contracts but you have simply not signed them, in the absense of a direct refusal, you could be deemed to be accepting the terms by continuing to work under them, I beleive. If much depends on this answer-take proper legal advice though

[blueedge]

blindswelledrat said:

Its a difficult one.
If they have given you nothing at all since that original one, then 25 is indeed your entitlement.
If they have given you revised contracts but you have simply not signed them, in the absense of a direct refusal, you could be deemed to be accepting the terms by continuing to work under them, I beleive. If much depends on this answer-take proper legal advice though

They have never given me a new contract to sign nor made any mention of one. Every year my boss has simply reduced our allowance himself in his head and then states "It's always been like that".

I got paid today however, and they have paid me half my normal wage. Not once however has my boss actually had the balls to tell me to my face that they'd be doing that, I naively assumed that 5 and a half years of loyal service, and for a large amount of that doing the work that kept the company afloat, they might repay me by being reasonable about it. Funny that the only time they decide to do stuff by the book is when it benefits them...

Thank you again for the help.

[Dupont666]

blueedge said:

blindswelledrat said:

Its a difficult one.
If they have given you nothing at all since that original one, then 25 is indeed your entitlement.
If they have given you revised contracts but you have simply not signed them, in the absense of a direct refusal, you could be deemed to be accepting the terms by continuing to work under them, I beleive. If much depends on this answer-take proper legal advice though

They have never given me a new contract to sign nor made any mention of one. Every year my boss has simply reduced our allowance himself in his head and then states "It's always been like that".

I got paid today however, and they have paid me half my normal wage. Not once however has my boss actually had the balls to tell me to my face that they'd be doing that, I naively assumed that 5 and a half years of loyal service, and for a large amount of that doing the work that kept the company afloat, they might repay me by being reasonable about it. Funny that the only time they decide to do stuff by the book is when it benefits them...

Thank you again for the help.

have they explained why its only 1/2 the normal wage?

surely they cant just take it?

[Deva Link]

blueedge said:

blindswelledrat said:

Its a difficult one.
If they have given you nothing at all since that original one, then 25 is indeed your entitlement.
If they have given you revised contracts but you have simply not signed them, in the absense of a direct refusal, you could be deemed to be accepting the terms by continuing to work under them, I beleive. If much depends on this answer-take proper legal advice though

They have never given me a new contract to sign nor made any mention of one. Every year my boss has simply reduced our allowance himself in his head and then states "It's always been like that".

I got paid today however, and they have paid me half my normal wage. Not once however has my boss actually had the balls to tell me to my face that they'd be doing that, I naively assumed that 5 and a half years of loyal service, and for a large amount of that doing the work that kept the company afloat, they might repay me by being reasonable about it. Funny that the only time they decide to do stuff by the book is when it benefits them...

Thank you again for the help.

I've worked for some pretty decent firms but they've usually done things totally by the book when I, or others, have left. After all, it's a business - there's not a lot of point in bunging someone a bit extra when they're leaving.

Never mind, you're out of there now and can move on.

[blueedge]

Dupont666 said:

have they explained why its only 1/2 the normal wage?

surely they cant just take it?

Nope, they've not said anything about it to me. The only reason I knew I'd be getting docked some wages was because my boss told my colleague about it. I would have thought at least out of courtesy to me as the longest serving employee of the company they would forewarn me. I will be speaking to the accounts department tomorrow to establish how they actually came to the figure.

In some ways I'm not surprised because my boss and the boss of our partner company are two of the most crooked people I've ever come across, but somehow they always get away with it.

[blueedge]

Deva Link said:

I've worked for some pretty decent firms but they've usually done things totally by the book when I, or others, have left. After all, it's a business - there's not a lot of point in bunging someone a bit extra when they're leaving.

Never mind, you're out of there now and can move on.

From a business point of view I see where you're coming from, but given that I've not had a payrise for 3 years (always some excuse), I have taken on the actual full time jobs of 4 other employees who have left for one reason or another and have pretty much keeping the company in business, you'd think at the very least they'd have enough respect for me to forewarn what was going to happen.

As I said in a previous post another member of staff left last month and she got her full pay for the month whilst using the remainder of her annual leave to take terminal leave. There's simply no consistency.

You are correct about me being able to move on, but it does leave a very sour taste in the mouth.

[LongLiveTazio]

Is anyone in here an employment solicitor? I need to consult via email if that would be OK. I appreciate it.