Socialising an adult/rescue dog

[C8PPO]

Some of you may remember that we rehomed a rescue GSD a few months ago, Duffy. She's a fantastic dog, great in the house, has funny little habits which make us laugh, and has proven in many respects to be very trainable. We had zero history for her, but someone has obviously done a lot of work in the past. All the basics; sit/down/stay/stand/etc etc are there. We've got her doing things like lying down at the door before her walks and waiting until we're outside and call her, she'll sit automatically and make eye contact before she's allowed at her food which is on the floor in front of her - most of the basic obedience stuff seems easy to achieve. She also goes to training/obedience classes evert week, this is run by a police handler and trains in obedience, confidence and some agility work.

A few odd things freak her out; walking along the road she ignores moving cars completely, but if someone gets into a parked car, starts it up and drives off, she goes ballistic. She seems to also be slightly spooked by motorbikes but not seriously. Having no history, this could be due to all manner of things and hopefully she'll grow out of those as she feels more secure with us.

We kept her on the lead for a good couple of months and practised recall daily. However, her recall is patchy to say the least. She'll come back if she's not distracted at all, whether or not there's a treat for her, but if there's anything slighty more interesting, we're history. Because of this, we're careful when & where we let her run. She's quite reward-driven.

However, the bigger issue, coupled to the recall thing, is aggression to other dogs. This is patchy, and fairly unpredictable up to a few seconds before she goes for it. It seems to be linked to a domination thing, because if she's on the lead and stationary with another dog, say for example we meet someone out walking and stop to talk, she'll size the other dog up and after a bit she'll put a paw on it's shoulder and try to push it down. Off the lead though it's less predictable.

We did let her run with a young (18 month) male GSD after classes one week. He is bigger than her, but after a mild 5 second tussle he rolled over and after that Duffy was content to lie down and let him run around while she just watched.

The trainer advised us to hook up wth people who were prepared to let their dog run wth ours and see what happened. He said that if they fought, we should give them 30 secs before separating them, but believe me that's a very long wait when 2 dogs are going hammer & tongs!

Good friend of mine has an elderly Rott, who has met up with Duffy 3 or 4 times for walks. The Rott is around 45kg vs Duffy's 31kg (she's petite!) and has always ben a grumpy sod, but he's 11 years old now and short of energy. Last weekend, we tok them to an enclosed field, walked them together for about half an hour, then let them off to run. Duffy initially ignored him, and he just walked off on his own, but then she ran up to him and leapt upon his shoulders. There was definitely mouth contact, given the amount of saliva on his neck, but no puncture bites. I lifted her off by the scruff and bollcked her, and we tried again. Same again: bimbled about for a few minutes, then stalked him and jumped him. After the 4th time of this happening, I put her back on the halter & lead and kept her head on my thigh for the rest of the walk, ie didn't let her move around and sniff but kept a fairly dominant stance with her to put the message across that I wasn't impressed.

So, what do we do? Simplistically, I'd have said that what she needs is be turned loose in a Cesar-style compound full of dogs, to let her learn her position, but I can't see us flying her out to CA any time soon. Are there any other options, or any facilities like that in the UK?

All suggestions welcome, but if your views are along the lines of "I hate dogs, kill them all, keep it on the lead you muppet, etc" then jog on and post on another thread, ta!

[gtdc]

That's a bugger. We've been lucky with all our rescue dogs.

If you got hert from a home can you ring them for some advice? It probably happens all the time. If not I'd ring the Dogs Trust who will always give good advice.

[C8PPO]

Dogs Trust is a good idea, thanks!

[Thevet]

Maybe your vet would be able to recommend a good animal behaviourist? Typical dysfunctional dog after a difficult start, but at least you're getting most of the training and trust basics right, some friends of mine have just taken on a pitbull cross that had been abandoned, desperately nervous to the point of nasty aggression to start with, now just aimed at male strangers, but pretty scarey. She's a young dog and has improved over the 2 weeks, but not one for the faint-hearted.

[softtop]

Having read the detail I am struggling to see the issue. Dogs play like they kill, they grab each other by the neck. If they wanted to inflict damage they would. Sounds like you need to let your dog play with another who knows how to play rough. Lurchers are ok. Mine plays with alsations, if they can catch him..

People see dogs playing rough and tell them off. Use your nouse, are they both engaged? Is one being dominated and therefore uncomfortable with the action?

Your dog maybe boisterous, if you understand him you will see the difference between agression and situation

[silversun]

My parents had a rescue dog (lab/collie cross) who was fantastic but had similar idiosyncracies. She was terrified of parked cars, strange men and other dogs. Her fears became less over time with training and lots of love and attention but never completely went away, and she did go from being very withdrawn and wary to being affectionate and protective.

I have to admit to not being a massive dog fan but if I was ever going to get one I'd always get one from a rescue home. The soppy part of me feels sorry for them and wants to look after them all.

[C8PPO]

Yeah, I hear you, (softop) but I've owned several dogs over the years and I know the difference between being boisterous and being aggressive. I need to nip this in the bud before she bumps into a Yorkie one day.

Edited by C8PPO on Friday 28th May 21:35

[Mrs Grumpy]

First, I'd definitely steer clear of any CM outdated dominance/flooding style ste, which is only likely to make things worse

Whatever the reasoning behind her 'attacks', her stress and adrenalin levels will be up, making her unable to learn or deal with anything in a rational way. They can remain high for a couple of days and be cumulative, so would worsen every time there is an 'incident. I would avoid any interaction with other dogs for a week or so. Her adrenalin levels will have dropped by then so you can start a programme of counter conditioning her to learn that other dogs are good things and not to be 'attacked'. The fact that there are no actual wounds is a good sign - there is no intent.

It's vitually impossible to diagnose what's going on with her over the internet and not seeing her body language. Does she give appeasement signals? Does she only 'go for' the other dog when he is going away from her? You don't want her to practise this behaviour anyway as it can become rewarding, so I would ensure she is on lead and not able to give chase until you can get to the bottom of what's going on and sort it out.

I would advise seeing a proper, qualified behaviourist who is a member of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors. http://www.apbc.org.uk/ They will come out to your house, talk to you about the issues, assess your dog and should give you a written assessment and what to do about the issues.

Good luck!

[C8PPO]

Mrs Grumpy said:

Does she give appeasement signals?

Can you explain that more?

Mrs Grumpy said:

Does she only 'go for' the other dog when he is going away from her?

Interesting, yes, I hadn't thought about it but with the Rott, yes, definitely, and on the occasions she has raised a paw to another dog as in my OP, it's pretty much always from the side or from behind. I guess from your post that that's significant - but why?

[softtop]

C8PPO said:

Mrs Grumpy said:

Does she give appeasement signals?

Can you explain that more? Increased licking of the lips for example

Mrs Grumpy said:

Does she only 'go for' the other dog when he is going away from her?

Interesting, yes, I hadn't thought about it but with the Rott, yes, definitely, and on the occasions she has raised a paw to another dog as in my OP, it's pretty much always from the side or from behind. I guess from your post that that's significant - but why?

as for biting from behind, sounds as though nervousness could be at play

[Jasandjules]

It may be a silly idea, but how about putting a muzzle on the dog then letting her off lead (and in a controlled area) with dogs which you know are not going to attack her. So that if/when she attacks, she does no damage to them but also doesn't get hurt. It may help her overcome fear/aggression?

[C8PPO]

We do have a muzzle for her,so could try that, although the trainer we have been using recommended against it saying that it could produce the same symptoms as when a dog is on the lead and challenged, ie make her more aggressive through believing that she's not able to defend herself. Definitely an option when/where we need her to be with other dogs though.

[Mrs Grumpy]

C8PPO said:

Mrs Grumpy said:

Does she give appeasement signals?

Can you explain that more?

Mrs Grumpy said:

Does she only 'go for' the other dog when he is going away from her?

Interesting, yes, I hadn't thought about it but with the Rott, yes, definitely, and on the occasions she has raised a paw to another dog as in my OP, it's pretty much always from the side or from behind. I guess from your post that that's significant - but why?

Appeasements signals are bits of dog body language that dogs throw out to calm themselves, whatever it is they are appeasing (people, other dogs, etc) and to tell everyone that they are no threat.

They generally take the form of:

• Lip licking
• Yawning
• Looking away/turning their head away
• Finding something suddenly very interesting to sniff

They look to the other dogs to give them back to them. In your OP you say that one of the dogs rolled over and after that she was fine. He told her he was no threat so she wasn't bothered.

With the only 'going for it' when the other dog is going away from them, this is probably because face-on the dog was too scary. Once going away from her she could 'see it off'. No matter that he was going anyway, in her mind she was seeing it off. It is a strategy that works so she is likely to continue with it, it could become a habit and she could get a buzz from it. She needs to have positive associations with other dogs built up.

I have a dog (Taffy) who is very damaged and an extreme case. From his behaviour I am pretty certain he was tied up in a shed and beaten. Unsurprisingly he has some behavioural issues. The whole world is scary for him. He has been with me about 12 months now and I am still the only person who can touch him. I made mistakes with him at the beginning and am now having to work to change his conditioned emotional response to things. Where I thought he was coping with things, actually he was very shut down and just existing in his own bubble. Once he was relaxed enough to come out of his bubble (after about 10 months), he started charging and shouting at people, dog, bikes, horses, cows.... because he is scared of them and doesn't know how to deal with them. I needed to sort it our before charging and shouting became charging and biting.

While we have come a long way on our own, we needed the help of a behaviourist at this point. It has now been 6 weeks since the behaviourist paid a visit and I am very pleased to say that my boy today played with a very bouncy 6 month old GSD pup on a walk This is a dog that he had previously shown all his teeth to when he was in his face.

Everything I have done with him has been to set him up to succeed and not to put him in a position where he will fail. He needs to be able to trust me completely. I started with only taking him on two walks that he was less stressy about as we rarely saw anyone else or any other dogs. This allowed his adrenalin levels to drop and he could then learn. If I did see anyone else or another dog, I put him on the lead so that he did not 'see them off', walked as far away as possible from them, even if it meant turning around or changing direction, put a tree or something between us and them and also planted myself between us and them, teaching him to go behind me so he was safe. I have also taught him some simple commands such as 'nose' (he touches my hand with his nose) to build up his self-confidence.

Taffy's 'critical distance', ie the distance at which he can still see the scary thing but not be reactive and still operant (able to obey commands) - is HUGE. Over time his critical distance has diminished. When the scary thing is in sight I feed him high value treats. When they are out of sight I stop feeding him. So scary thing = yummy treats and a positive association is built.

Apart from the behavioural stuff, I have used other things to support us - none of which will do any harm (apart from perhaps looking a bit stupid and damaging my bank balance):

• Switching to a natural, raw diet. What you feed your dog can have a big impact on their behaviour. I feed Nature's Menu Frozen Nuggets. UK BARF Club
• Taffy wears a Thunder Shirt. It's like a tight fitting coat. The theory is that like swaddling clothes on a baby, it is wrapping them up in a portable hug. Thunder Shirt Available from Tilley Farm in the UK
• I give him Zylkene, a natural de-stresser. Zylkene
• He wears a Beaphar Calming Collar. Similar to a DAP collar but cheaper. Pet Remedies

If you are bored one afternoon you can read the story of Taffy's progress (with photos) on our forum here

[C8PPO]

Thanks for the input Mrs G, I'll have a good long read and think. It's much appreciated.

It's early days for Duffy really, we've only had her 2.5 months and she's done really well in pretty much every other respect and is an absolutely lovely dog. We just want to (hopefully) get her to the point where we can go to places with other dogs - the beach, for example - and let her run around with them without issue. I'll report back in due course.

[Mrs Grumpy]

C8PPO said:

It's early days for Duffy really, we've only had her 2.5 months and she's done really well in pretty much every other respect and is an absolutely lovely dog. We just want to (hopefully) get her to the point where we can go to places with other dogs - the beach, for example - and let her run around with them without issue. I'll report back in due course.

It's very early days yet

Do report back - with photos please

[Mastiff]

Mrs Grumpy said:

Lots of interesting stuff...

Thanks for all of this, some useful stuff here which I can try and use with a rescue Great Dane that we inherited just before christmas.

Many thanks.



This is Echo. A two year old dog that is coming along very well, but should he get distracted (bunnies, other dogs etc etc) gets a glint in his eye and then refuses to come back. We will get there I guess.

Apologies for the thread hijack, but I was looking for an excuse to post a piccie of him!

Edited by Mastiff on Saturday 29th May 14:36

Edited by Mastiff on Saturday 29th May 14:48

[greengreenwood7]

give me a shout if you want.....live near Brands have 4 lurchers ( 5 as of tomorrow ), got some open fields next to us - could look at bringing yours over perhaps with a muzzle to start with and then experiment to see if it wears off. one of ours that died a few weeks back was totally anti-social when we got him ( all rescues ), a bit of TLC at home, muzzle to start with and he was soon fine - thats not to say the issues were the same as you have with yours........

[C8PPO]

Thanks very much, appreciate that offer and it would be good to see how it goes. I had a knee op this week so I'm not very mobile for a while but will drop you a line when I'm up & running again, cheers.

[Mrs Grumpy]

Just came across this on the APBC website that you might find of use : Looking Beyond the Obvious…

Emmet is a mildly fearful dog that has developed a coping strategy of using aggression towards another dog. This is probably initiated by a lack of social experience and maintained by the dogs that defer. He is confident in his use of this strategy, particularly at the distance beyond which social contact is possible. He is happy so long as he can exert that control. However, if Emmet is brought into close contact with a dog that does not defer, he will damage them in his efforts to try to exert control.

Sound familiar? The Youtube video shows that with someone who understands dogs properly can retrain them using positive, reward-based training only (clicker and treats) No flooding, alpha rolling, pinning, kicking, etc in sight