McLaren, what on earth is going on??
Discussion
So they get their car out first, it has been in development for well over a year (if we count the fact that it was based on last years car that never raced) and it is still pants...
Err hello, what on eath is going on?
Has Adrian Newey lost the plot?
I know they 'apparently' struggled to get the same power as the Ferrari and BMW, and there were some problems at illmor last year but I'd have thought they would have ironed those out...
So why?? Discuss
D.
Err hello, what on eath is going on?
Has Adrian Newey lost the plot?
I know they 'apparently' struggled to get the same power as the Ferrari and BMW, and there were some problems at illmor last year but I'd have thought they would have ironed those out...
So why?? Discuss
D.
McLaren - no longer totally focussed on F1. Being involved with corporate and production car matters has allowed them to take their eye off the ball. The exact same thing happened during the McLaren F1 period (1989-1995). It was only when the McLaren F1 story had more or less come to an end that the Formula One show took to the road again.
Ron has to decide what his company does - make F1 cars or high end production sports cars.
Ron has to decide what his company does - make F1 cars or high end production sports cars.
Wondered this myself for a couple of seasons with them now. It seems ever since Mika left the car has not improved as it previously had. A possibility is Mika gave the engineers/designer better feed back on how the car behaved pre and post various mods. Maybe Mika's departure and the arrival of the relatively inexperienced Kimi has shown Coultard had/has an inability to offer that very important feedback. Prior to Maclaren he only had been with one team with an experienced No.1. who possibly masked any feed back isssues Coultard may have had.
I seem to recall the same thing happening at Benetton when both Alessi & Berger left and were replaced with (I forget who) 2 relatively inexperiecned drivers, the cars went backwards in terms of improvement.
I guess alot of teams have and will suffer from this problem and resort to the more experienced test driver route rather than signing an up and commer and nurturing the talent, Maclaren signed Panis as a test driver at that time possibly for that very reason.
Not a great fan of Coultard but has done a resonable job but has never shone.
Just my 2 bob's worth.
David
I seem to recall the same thing happening at Benetton when both Alessi & Berger left and were replaced with (I forget who) 2 relatively inexperiecned drivers, the cars went backwards in terms of improvement.
I guess alot of teams have and will suffer from this problem and resort to the more experienced test driver route rather than signing an up and commer and nurturing the talent, Maclaren signed Panis as a test driver at that time possibly for that very reason.
Not a great fan of Coultard but has done a resonable job but has never shone.
Just my 2 bob's worth.
David
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzeric mc said:
McLaren - no longer totally focussed on F1. Being involved with corporate and production car matters has allowed them to take their eye off the ball. The exact same thing happened during the McLaren F1 period (1989-1995). It was only when the McLaren F1 story had more or less come to an end that the Formula One show took to the road again.
Ron has to decide what his company does - make F1 cars or high end production sports cars.
Sorry but that just ain't it. McLaren International and McLaren Cars are separate companies in two separate buildings a mile and a half apart. Although it could be that the anticipation of the move to new premises has upset the staus quo on the racing front. Believe me, Ron knows where his priorities lie!
Why does the drop off in performance of the F1 team seem to coincide with these production car ventures then? Is it purely a coincidence?
Ron HAS to be involved in both camps - after all, he is the owner. F1 is so totally dependent on the team owner concentrating purely on the job in hand, not allowing himself to be distracted by outside factors is absolutely vital.
I know in the past other teams had production car matters to consider as well, noteably Ferrari, Lotus, Lancia, Maserati and Alfa Romeo. Well, Ferrari almost went bust, Lotus ended up not being able to do both and pulling out of F1, Lancia and Maserati DID go bust and Alfa Romeo gave up when it became fully integrated into the FIAT empire.
I just don't think both jobs can be done with the level of commitment required for either activity.
Ron HAS to be involved in both camps - after all, he is the owner. F1 is so totally dependent on the team owner concentrating purely on the job in hand, not allowing himself to be distracted by outside factors is absolutely vital.
I know in the past other teams had production car matters to consider as well, noteably Ferrari, Lotus, Lancia, Maserati and Alfa Romeo. Well, Ferrari almost went bust, Lotus ended up not being able to do both and pulling out of F1, Lancia and Maserati DID go bust and Alfa Romeo gave up when it became fully integrated into the FIAT empire.
I just don't think both jobs can be done with the level of commitment required for either activity.
The Wiz said:
Ferrari being the exception to that rule?
At a manufacturing level, Ferrari's racing division is integrated with the road car programme totally and so the management levels are flat.
McLaren's problem is probably that they are the opposite.
The degree of attention that has gone into Paragon (i.e. all screws having to be 80% matt....and Ron Dennis making regular checks on such issues) mean that something has to give.
In their defence though, it was a Mercedes engine that blew on Sunday, not a McLaren component!
The situation at Ferrari PROVES my point. Before 1967, Ferrari was an independent company struggling to produce F1 cars, F2 cars, sports racing cars and road cars. Financially, it was on its knees and had been heading that way for years (that's why they had been negotiating a sell out to Ford a few years earlier). The company was saved because FIAT bought a large shareholding in Ferrari and eventually took them over completely.
As you can see, even in the relatively less intense motor racing world of 1967, the pressure of trying to run too many separate operations was too much. Nowadays, the Ferrari road car division is essentially a FIAT operation. Ferrari's Grand Prix team is totally directed to run itself and nothing else and has no involvement in the road car business at all.
Matters at McLaren are very different - Ron Dennis is very much a hands on operator. Nothing happens at McLaren without his say so. Even the manner in which employee's cars are lined up in the car park are set out by Ron himself. He pays intense attention to detail in every aspect of his companies.
It's because of this atitude that I am absolutely convinced of my theory.
As you can see, even in the relatively less intense motor racing world of 1967, the pressure of trying to run too many separate operations was too much. Nowadays, the Ferrari road car division is essentially a FIAT operation. Ferrari's Grand Prix team is totally directed to run itself and nothing else and has no involvement in the road car business at all.
Matters at McLaren are very different - Ron Dennis is very much a hands on operator. Nothing happens at McLaren without his say so. Even the manner in which employee's cars are lined up in the car park are set out by Ron himself. He pays intense attention to detail in every aspect of his companies.
It's because of this atitude that I am absolutely convinced of my theory.
So we agree on lack of focus..
Ron, you reading this, well stop, turn your browser off and go and sort your cars out.
On a more serious note I would expect the issues with the car being down to technical issues which Ron Dennis will have very little input to. So I blame Adrian Newey.
D.
Ron, you reading this, well stop, turn your browser off and go and sort your cars out.
On a more serious note I would expect the issues with the car being down to technical issues which Ron Dennis will have very little input to. So I blame Adrian Newey.
D.
Maybe it is Mr Newey's fault, but as Patrick Head said when he went to McLaren, he is a designer and simply not a man manager. When he first went across and wiped the board with everyone, he still had the old infrastructure there. Now things are a little different.
Ron poached Newey by offering him a more senior role than Williams could - but he must have understood that his skills were based more in his pencil than man management technique. Therefore it really is up to Ron to fill in the gaps, and let that superb design mind do what it is good at.
I think that the problems they had last year with not being able to get the 18 from fast tester to racer back this up.
Rarri have the infrastructure well in place first, then comes the design input.
Ron poached Newey by offering him a more senior role than Williams could - but he must have understood that his skills were based more in his pencil than man management technique. Therefore it really is up to Ron to fill in the gaps, and let that superb design mind do what it is good at.
I think that the problems they had last year with not being able to get the 18 from fast tester to racer back this up.
Rarri have the infrastructure well in place first, then comes the design input.
I don't think McLaren are in as bad a state as it looked like in Australia.
They made a poor strategy choice by going for 2 stops where everyone else went for 3. Just look at the times for quali 1 and 2 to see how much that hurt them - they were ~1s slower in quali 2 compared to 1, Williams and Ferrari were ~1s quicker. I expect the fuel load hampered their pace a lot more than they thought and that meant their strategy didn't really pay off in the race either.
The do have a problem with engine reliability though, they've struggled with it in pre season testing and ran relatively few laps on their race cars in the practice sessions over the weekend.
They made a poor strategy choice by going for 2 stops where everyone else went for 3. Just look at the times for quali 1 and 2 to see how much that hurt them - they were ~1s slower in quali 2 compared to 1, Williams and Ferrari were ~1s quicker. I expect the fuel load hampered their pace a lot more than they thought and that meant their strategy didn't really pay off in the race either.
The do have a problem with engine reliability though, they've struggled with it in pre season testing and ran relatively few laps on their race cars in the practice sessions over the weekend.
I think that's an over optomistic view of what happend.
it was clear in Qualy 1 that they were slow, only option left open to them was to go for a 2 stop, hence they were even slower in Qualy 2.
at the end of the day, look at the lap times in the race, even just before his stops, Coultard was way off the pace.
engine wise, they do look like they are in trouble, appart from the obvious faliure, the speed trap numbers were shite compared to others.
I do think that some of Ferarri's advantage is clearly tyres, but what the hell have all the Michelen teams been doing over the winter testing FFS? I am sure Michelen are not doing nothing...
it was clear in Qualy 1 that they were slow, only option left open to them was to go for a 2 stop, hence they were even slower in Qualy 2.
at the end of the day, look at the lap times in the race, even just before his stops, Coultard was way off the pace.
engine wise, they do look like they are in trouble, appart from the obvious faliure, the speed trap numbers were shite compared to others.
I do think that some of Ferarri's advantage is clearly tyres, but what the hell have all the Michelen teams been doing over the winter testing FFS? I am sure Michelen are not doing nothing...
Did anyone else notice Ron Dennis very subtly dropping the words "monocoque" and "change" into his pre-race interview? He was being asked about whether a 'B' specification car would be introduced at some stage during the season
Now, a monocoque change is a little bit more than a new aero package or a bit of an engine tweak. A monocoque change is acknowledging that they've made a pretty major screw up and need to put it right pretty sharpish.
Now, a monocoque change is a little bit more than a new aero package or a bit of an engine tweak. A monocoque change is acknowledging that they've made a pretty major screw up and need to put it right pretty sharpish.
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