Employee on long term sick but hoilday booked
Discussion
An employee of ours has currently been on long term sick for the last 3 months suffering from vertigo and inner ear pain. He's provided Sick notes/Fit notes for the entrie period. The last Fit note we received from him signed him off work for the next month; however he's actually got a hoilday booked next week. When he booked it we were told he would be going to Tennerife for 2 weeks.
His job is totally office based and invloves nothing more than sitting at a desk. It's a fairly meanial administration job so there's little or no stress involved. His doctor however obviously believes that he is too unwell to do this in any capacity for at least another month.
Given this assessment of his state of health I don't really see how he could be able to get on a plane for several hours and then spend 2 on a jolly.
Is there anything we can do to find out if he does go on this trip? And if he does, is there anything we can do in relation to this? To me it would seem to vastly contradict his inability to work.
His job is totally office based and invloves nothing more than sitting at a desk. It's a fairly meanial administration job so there's little or no stress involved. His doctor however obviously believes that he is too unwell to do this in any capacity for at least another month.
Given this assessment of his state of health I don't really see how he could be able to get on a plane for several hours and then spend 2 on a jolly.
Is there anything we can do to find out if he does go on this trip? And if he does, is there anything we can do in relation to this? To me it would seem to vastly contradict his inability to work.
d will then fret and not enjoy his 2 weeks in the sun so much.Dr_Gonzo said:
Is there anything we can do to find out if he does go on this trip?
Go round his house during the 2 week period he's supposed to be on holiday and see if he's there. Try a couple of times.Short of finding out what travel agent he's used and asking them if he's gone or rocking up to the airport, that's all you can do I think.
I am very much hoping someone with knowledge of employment law will shortly be on to say that what he is doing is grounds for dismissal.
However presumably this was booked long before he reported any "illness", so if he is genuine then the holiday will have been cancelled.
Since his reported condition is about the most unsuitable one to have in conjunction with a plane flight, if he does go then that is about as damning as it gets.
However presumably this was booked long before he reported any "illness", so if he is genuine then the holiday will have been cancelled.
Since his reported condition is about the most unsuitable one to have in conjunction with a plane flight, if he does go then that is about as damning as it gets.
Edited by bonsai on Friday 4th June 09:51
A colleague of mine had vertigo/inner ear problems and when it first hit him he was a quivering mess on the floor. couldn't move without instnatly being sick. It was serious stuff.
As time went on he could barely do anything - every time he moved he fell over and instantly needed to be sick (he said it's like constnatly being drunk - and not in a good way).
During that whole time, and for about a year afterwards, he could not fly.
Now apparently he was fairly representative of the condition so I'd imagine that your employee would not be able to fly, even if he wanted to. However, don't let that stop you checking, just wanted to let you know how bad it can be
As time went on he could barely do anything - every time he moved he fell over and instantly needed to be sick (he said it's like constnatly being drunk - and not in a good way).
During that whole time, and for about a year afterwards, he could not fly.
Now apparently he was fairly representative of the condition so I'd imagine that your employee would not be able to fly, even if he wanted to. However, don't let that stop you checking, just wanted to let you know how bad it can be
ridds said:
From my experience not only can you not challenge it you will also have to credit the holiday back.
There was a recent EU ruling on this, and even if an employee falls ill on holiday then they're entitled to replace the sick days with additional holiday.I guess you are entitled to get your own medical opinion of the likelyhood of them being fit to return to work, but I imagine that, unless the person is suffering badly, there will be no visible physical symptoms.
That said, my wife had an episode of vertigo / inner ear problems, thankfully a one-off, and, as others have said, she was pretty incapable of doing anything for quite a while.
ETA: there's some info here: http://www.crippslink.com/index.php?option=com_con... which make it seem like you're a bit stuffed anyway.
I did see other comments which state that the employee MUST ask permission to go, but there was no reliable looking source for those comments.
Edited by Deva Link on Friday 4th June 20:31
I used to work in the civil service in HR dealing with exactly this sort of thing and we used to require a letter from the doctor concerned saying that the holiday would be beneficial to his/her health.
A phonecall or preferably if there is time a letter asking him if he is still travelling on holiday and if he is a letter from the GP to explain that it is ok.
A phonecall or preferably if there is time a letter asking him if he is still travelling on holiday and if he is a letter from the GP to explain that it is ok.
You are assuming that he is still going on holiday but you do not know this is the case.
I would write to him immediately and would probably include something along the lines of "I am sorry to see that you are still absent from work due to your vertigo. I hope you are receiving appropriate treatment, and wish you a quick recovery. Can you please let me know if you will still be travelling to Tenerife in case anything work related comes up that we need to contact you about".
I have been known to wait at the airport with a video camera to catch someone on the sick with an extremely bad back throwing large, full suitcases around like he was a sprightly 18 year old. He soon returned to work!!
You do really need to write to his GP for a report though. Or alternately get an independant assessment carried out from a company offering occupational health swrvices. Probably best couple of hundred pounds you will have spent all year!!
Whoever said that you cannot challenge the sickness is incorrect. You are not allowed to say "I do not believe you are sick" but you can ask for confirmation of the condition and its effects on the employee from his GP or get an independant medical. You can then choose whether to take the GP's opinion or the independant assessment as being your preferred confirmation.
I would write to him immediately and would probably include something along the lines of "I am sorry to see that you are still absent from work due to your vertigo. I hope you are receiving appropriate treatment, and wish you a quick recovery. Can you please let me know if you will still be travelling to Tenerife in case anything work related comes up that we need to contact you about".
I have been known to wait at the airport with a video camera to catch someone on the sick with an extremely bad back throwing large, full suitcases around like he was a sprightly 18 year old. He soon returned to work!!
You do really need to write to his GP for a report though. Or alternately get an independant assessment carried out from a company offering occupational health swrvices. Probably best couple of hundred pounds you will have spent all year!!
Whoever said that you cannot challenge the sickness is incorrect. You are not allowed to say "I do not believe you are sick" but you can ask for confirmation of the condition and its effects on the employee from his GP or get an independant medical. You can then choose whether to take the GP's opinion or the independant assessment as being your preferred confirmation.
Edited by Firefoot on Monday 7th June 14:28
ridds said:
From my experience not only can you not challenge it you will also have to credit the holiday back.
They've been signed off by a doctor and that overides whatever holiday they may have had booked.
I'd let it go tbh.
yep ... makes for an interesting time trying to get all your leave in when you've had 3 -6 months off ... They've been signed off by a doctor and that overides whatever holiday they may have had booked.
I'd let it go tbh.
Soovy said:
Seems ot me that if he can fly, he can work.
Ask questions. I think you're being played like a banjo.
what's your GMC number Soovy ? or your NMC PIN ? Ask questions. I think you're being played like a banjo.
which university did you attend to gain your post registration qualification in Occupational Health ?
are you a FFOM ?
if you can't answer some or all of those questions I think your "expert clinical opinion " belongs in file 13
Firefoot said:
You are assuming that he is still going on holiday but you do not know this is the case.
I would write to him immediately and would probably include something along the lines of "I am sorry to see that you are still absent from work due to your vertigo. I hope you are receiving appropriate treatment, and wish you a quick recovery. Can you please let me know if you will still be travelling to Tenerife in case anything work related comes up that we need to contact you about".
I have been known to wait at the airport with a video camera to catch someone on the sick with an extremely bad back throwing large, full suitcases around like he was a sprightly 18 year old. He soon returned to work!!
I presume you have a warrant card and /or an SIA badge ?I would write to him immediately and would probably include something along the lines of "I am sorry to see that you are still absent from work due to your vertigo. I hope you are receiving appropriate treatment, and wish you a quick recovery. Can you please let me know if you will still be travelling to Tenerife in case anything work related comes up that we need to contact you about".
I have been known to wait at the airport with a video camera to catch someone on the sick with an extremely bad back throwing large, full suitcases around like he was a sprightly 18 year old. He soon returned to work!!
[quote]You do really need to write to his GP for a report though. Or alternately get an independant assessment carried out from a company offering occupational health swrvices. Probably best couple of hundred pounds you will have spent all year!!
[quote]
Whoever said that you cannot challenge the sickness is incorrect. You are not allowed to say "I do not believe you are sick" but you can ask for confirmation of the condition and its effects on the employee from his GP or get an independant medical. You can then choose whether to take the GP's opinion or the independant assessment as being your preferred confirmation.
Edited by Firefoot on Monday 7th June 14:28
Edited by mph1977 on Monday 7th June 22:24
Edited by mph1977 on Monday 7th June 22:25
Talk to him. A holiday may be the best thing for the employee and maybe what he needs to get over his sickness and will give him an opportunity for him to recharge his batteries before he returns to work. Maybe invite him in (when he's not on hols) for a 'how are you' and 'what can we do to support you back to work' chat. Refer him to occupational health if you can and go from there. My understanding is that annual leave is accrued and a 'fit note' overides this. The new fit notes also give the GP an opportunity to suggest recommendations to take into account that someone can return to work but have some support put into place such as a phased return to work. Maybe this can be suggested to the member of staff aswell. It all depends on how flexible and accommodating your organisation can afford to be.
You make two errors in these statements.
1 anyone who thinks that paid for by the employer or even employed OH services are going to adopt the position of the employer then you are mistaken ( although given some of the reported antics of ATOS with ESA/ DLA medicals ... )
I was not saying that the report will automatically fall in the employers favour. The employer will get medical answers to a set of questions relating to the employee and their condition. These questions will take into consideration the possibility that the Occ Health Doctor knows what the employees job and working conditions are. If the employee is taking the mickey, the employer will find this out and can take appropriate action.
2 the fact is if a Suitably qualified medical practitioner is providing MED 4s with such restrictions that the individual cannot attend work, there is little alternative other than the follow your capability (attendance) procedure to terminate their contract ...
It is the case that where two medical opinions conflict, the employer can chose to prefer the opinion of its own Occ Health service, or PHI providers medical people etc.
1 anyone who thinks that paid for by the employer or even employed OH services are going to adopt the position of the employer then you are mistaken ( although given some of the reported antics of ATOS with ESA/ DLA medicals ... )
I was not saying that the report will automatically fall in the employers favour. The employer will get medical answers to a set of questions relating to the employee and their condition. These questions will take into consideration the possibility that the Occ Health Doctor knows what the employees job and working conditions are. If the employee is taking the mickey, the employer will find this out and can take appropriate action.
2 the fact is if a Suitably qualified medical practitioner is providing MED 4s with such restrictions that the individual cannot attend work, there is little alternative other than the follow your capability (attendance) procedure to terminate their contract ...
It is the case that where two medical opinions conflict, the employer can chose to prefer the opinion of its own Occ Health service, or PHI providers medical people etc.
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