Diesel Aircraft

[Urban Sports]

Why so few?

Surely the fuel efficiency and reliability would make diesel power in smaller aircraft a winner?

The thread in GG (diesel sounds) got me thinking , that either I haven't seen / heard one or they are generally rare??

This sounds great

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0BhcIT2V1s

[eharding]

Urban Sports said:

Why so few?

Surely the fuel efficiency and reliability would make diesel power in smaller aircraft a winner?

The thread in GG (diesel sounds) got me thinking , that either I haven't seen / heard one or they are generally rare??

This sounds great

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0BhcIT2V1s

In recent years, a number of manufacturers have tried to adapt automotive diesel units for aviation use, and have generally come a cropper with certification and warranty issues - the most notable example being Thielert, who went very messily bankrupt a couple of years ago, leaving manufacturers planning designs around Thielert engines and existing customers somewhat up a nasty creek.

With avgas prices rising inexorably, there is still a lot of interest in diesels though - a recently announced 500bhp diesel V12 was shown bolted onto the front of a Yak-52 at a trade show, and very tasty it looked as well - the downside being it was a 150k Euro engine bolted onto a £25K airframe.

[Tango13]

The Blohm & Voss BV 222C-1flying boat had six 1000hp Junkers Jumo 207C-2 Diesel engines.

The Dornier Do 216 was to use four Junkers Jumo 223 24 cylinder diesels each producing 2500hp but none were ever built.

[tegwin]

Eurocopter were/are working on a diesel helicopter.... Appart from the weight it would be ideal given the narrow torque bands that diesel engines work at... almost perfect for a continuous speed rotor head!

[Simpo Two]

Tango13 said:

The Blohm & Voss BV 222C-1flying boat had six 1000hp Junkers Jumo 207C-2 Diesel engines.

Eric Brown in his book 'Wings on my Sleeve' says (German) diesel engines were developed for long endurance operations and fitted mainly to flying boats with successful results. He flew twin diesel-engined Do18, three-engined Bv138, four-engined Do26 and the six-engined Bv222, finding them quiet but dirty and smelly.

[Hugo a Gogo]

eharding said:

Urban Sports said:

Why so few?

Surely the fuel efficiency and reliability would make diesel power in smaller aircraft a winner?

The thread in GG (diesel sounds) got me thinking , that either I haven't seen / heard one or they are generally rare??

This sounds great

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0BhcIT2V1s

In recent years, a number of manufacturers have tried to adapt automotive diesel units for aviation use, and have generally come a cropper with certification and warranty issues - the most notable example being Thielert, who went very messily bankrupt a couple of years ago, leaving manufacturers planning designs around Thielert engines and existing customers somewhat up a nasty creek.

With avgas prices rising inexorably, there is still a lot of interest in diesels though - a recently announced 500bhp diesel V12 was shown bolted onto the front of a Yak-52 at a trade show, and very tasty it looked as well - the downside being it was a 150k Euro engine bolted onto a £25K airframe.

those thielert engines used kerosene jet fuel though, didn't they?

technically there is no such thing as 'diesel fuel' really, just diesel engines, which can run on all sorts of stuff

[eharding]

Hugo a Gogo said:

eharding said:

Urban Sports said:

Why so few?

Surely the fuel efficiency and reliability would make diesel power in smaller aircraft a winner?

The thread in GG (diesel sounds) got me thinking , that either I haven't seen / heard one or they are generally rare??

This sounds great

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l0BhcIT2V1s

In recent years, a number of manufacturers have tried to adapt automotive diesel units for aviation use, and have generally come a cropper with certification and warranty issues - the most notable example being Thielert, who went very messily bankrupt a couple of years ago, leaving manufacturers planning designs around Thielert engines and existing customers somewhat up a nasty creek.

With avgas prices rising inexorably, there is still a lot of interest in diesels though - a recently announced 500bhp diesel V12 was shown bolted onto the front of a Yak-52 at a trade show, and very tasty it looked as well - the downside being it was a 150k Euro engine bolted onto a £25K airframe.

those thielert engines used kerosene jet fuel though, didn't they?

technically there is no such thing as 'diesel fuel' really, just diesel engines, which can run on all sorts of stuff

Yes, and part of the problem was adapting automotive diesel units to run on avtur, rather than automotive diesel.

Interestingly..at least from my point of view...is that Russian M14P engines were designed to run on 91 octane petrol rather than the 100 octane leaded brew currently on offer from the avgas pumps - which means we could in principle run the Yak on an avgas/mogas mixture, at a considerable saving from the 100% avgas diet it gets at the moment....or at least it would be doing, if we could keep the bloody thing out of the workshop

[C8PPO]

About 5 years or so back, I used to fly a Diamond DA40 TDI; local club owned two of them. Lovely planes, with a surprising turn of speed to them. I seem to recall that those had Thielert engines. Club has changed hands now and they've gone back to an all-Cessna fleet. Don't know where the two DA40s ended up - but if Thielert went bang, presumably the planes would have had to be re-engined; not an easy task, I suspect, given the electronics involved with that model.

[agric]

I asked the same question here a couple of years back and was told (amongst other facts)
that Russian migs burned diesel during Korean war

[cerberamatt]

I remember some tests in America where they ran an Aero Vodochody L-29 on diesel with some sucsses.

[RizzoTheRat]

agric said:

I asked the same question here a couple of years back and was told (amongst other facts)
that Russian migs burned diesel during Korean war

I believe the majority of Russian military jets are designed to be able to run on diesel, they'll smoke a bit a more than on avtur but it makes a lot of sense.

[Geneve]

tegwin said:

Eurocopter were/are working on a diesel helicopter.... Appart from the weight it would be ideal given the narrow torque bands that diesel engines work at... almost perfect for a continuous speed rotor head!

It's still under development, but Eurocopter displayed their high compression 2-stroke engine at Heli-Expo 2010 in Houston recently. It's called OPOC (opposite piston - opposite cylinder) and is actually a development of old technology (a kind of diesel 911?).

As well as the torque range, the main objective is the high power to low weight/compact size ratio -crucial in a helicopter.

[Hugo a Gogo]

sounds like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposed-piston_engine similar to the Deltics under discussion in another thread

[Eric Mc]

The R101 airship had diesels.

[andy97]

C8PPO said:

About 5 years or so back, I used to fly a Diamond DA40 TDI; local club owned two of them. Lovely planes, with a surprising turn of speed to them. I seem to recall that those had Thielert engines. Club has changed hands now and they've gone back to an all-Cessna fleet. Don't know where the two DA40s ended up - but if Thielert went bang, presumably the planes would have had to be re-engined; not an easy task, I suspect, given the electronics involved with that model.

Wasn't that engine based on the mercedes 1700cc TDi engine from the A Class car?

A company I used to work for investigated proposing them for a military training contract they had at the time (they would have ben civil registered a/c).

[J500ANT]

http://www.ecofly.de/english.htm powered by the 799cc smart cdi engine.

[Pigeon]

Hugo a Gogo said:

sounds like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opposed-piston_engine similar to the Deltics under discussion in another thread

The Deltic was inspired by the Junkers Jumo. Think of three Jumos joined at the cranks.

[robbin'b]

Not so much 'inspired by' as a 'direct descendent of', Napier licence built JUMO 205 engines before WW2, as the Culverin which was again used on flying-boats. The Deltic was a marine engine first though.

R