Big changes TDV8 going, Defender coming in. Need advice.
Discussion
After a weekend camping and thoroughly enjoying using my new Kayak, i have decided to sell the TDV8 as I dont want to be woriied about getting such a beautiful car messy when i'm out and about on my adventures (it's on the PH classifieds) I am looking to buy 2 cars, which at the moment will be a BMW 5 series touring and a defender.
Now the 5 series is easy, but Defender is the only LR i have not had, so would really appreciate some advice. I wont be spending a lot, up to £7k, and need it to transport kayaks on the roof, bikes on the towbar, band gear for my gigs, and allow me to do some lanes. At the moment i am looking at 110's, but having looked at the classifieds there are so many variants. I guess diesel is a must but dont know the difference between a 200 and a 300 tdi (know all about the TD5)
So go for it. £7k (preferably less) on a low tax bracket (is this possible) diesel do everything, have fun defender , what would you buy.
Cheers
Ian
Now the 5 series is easy, but Defender is the only LR i have not had, so would really appreciate some advice. I wont be spending a lot, up to £7k, and need it to transport kayaks on the roof, bikes on the towbar, band gear for my gigs, and allow me to do some lanes. At the moment i am looking at 110's, but having looked at the classifieds there are so many variants. I guess diesel is a must but dont know the difference between a 200 and a 300 tdi (know all about the TD5)
So go for it. £7k (preferably less) on a low tax bracket (is this possible) diesel do everything, have fun defender , what would you buy.
Cheers
Ian
Anything pre March 2001 registration will be the old road tax system anyhow. So will cost the same as a 1.6 Corsa of the same year to tax or 6.0 litre V12 Jag.
Newer then you need to check the banding, although if you get one classified as a "commercial", usually pickups and hard tops without rear seats then they pay the commercial rate. It's all on the Direct Gov website, just Google "car tax".
As for engines, well it's easy, there are 3 main ones. All Defender's are diesels bar a few special editions and NAS (North American spec) models.
Early One Ten's (before the Defender moniker) had a different engine line up.
I'll start at the beginning as it's probably easier.
Very early 110's (think circa 1983/4) used the old Series engines. Very few and probably not worth worrying about.
Later ones used the Rover 3.5 V8 on twin Stromberg carbs making ~137hp and 187lb ft. Good for it's day and sound nice, but will be heavy on fuel. As low as 12mpg pottering and off road and upto 17 or maybe 19mpg on a run.
diesels where available in 2.5 TD form and a few (Mil spec) with 2.5 n/a. Not a bad engine and made just under 90hp in TD form and 67hp in n/a form. Quite noisy and under powered by today's standards. Although the 2.5 TD is sufficient to run at 65mph on the m-way and pottering about in. Interestingly the block these use is based on the old Series motor's petrol block from the 50's/60's. MPG wise expect low to mid 20's.
There was also a 2.5 n/a petrol, which again was based on a Series 2.25 unit. Similar mpg to the V8 and similar HP to the TD unit.
Most of the above all have 5 speed gearboxes, LT-77 although the V8 used the stronger but not so nice to use LT-85. All had drum rear brakes.
Move on to around 1990'ish when the Defender name was introduced. V8's stopped production in around 87 iirc and the old TD unit was replaced with the 200Tdi engine. This is actually still the same block, but now used a direct injection fueling method and different turbo. It really is the mainstay of LR engines at present and a well respected unit. Power jumped to 107hp for Defenders (111hp for the new Disco and classic RR). Still using the LT-77 5 speed box. I think disc rear brakes were introduced at this time too.
The Tdi engine is very good and can see over 30mpg if driven gently, although mid 20's are more the norm. The best thing with these is they are very tunable on the cheap. A few tweaks of the injector pump, bigger intercooler and more boost will liberate 35% more power and see over 150hp. In this guise they will rival a fuel injected V8 in real terms on the road. Places like Allisport will do this for you for around £400, but there are lots of tuning companies, or you can do it yourself.
In around 1994i'sh the 300Tdi engine was introduced. It's actually a development of the 200Tdi, so again same block. It's supposed to be more "refined" although I personally don't think there is much difference. It has a big black plastic/rubber engine cover and EGR. It makes the samw 111hp as the Disco spec 200Tdi. It is equally tunable as the 200Tdi and will see almost identical hp figures. Some claim mpg isn't quite as good, but to be honest I think it matters not. I had a 300TDI D90 back in 1997, I used to rag it everywhere and it typically did 23mpg, it did have the pump "tweaked" but no other mods. Currently have a modded 200Tdi with big intercooler. In a Disco on big wheels it does around 21-22mpg.
Only other changes with the 300Tdi are a new 5 speed box known as an R380. Reverse is in a different place on the selector, but it's not actually all that different from an LT-77. In fact it really is an LT-77 with some development, but it's not really any stronger or better to use IMO, or at least not enough to worry about. I think it's about this time when 24 spline axles became the norm replacing the 10 spline ones, although I'm not 100% certain for Defenders. In either case it actually makes little odds though.
Next up is the TD5's, which had a slightly revised dash, doors changed at some point to a one piece frame (used to be welded in the top corner before) and different door rubbers. ABS and traction control available. Fly-by-wire throttle was introduced.
Personally I think the TD5 is actually the best engine (although many will say TDI). But the Td5 so easily out performs the Tdi it's not even funny. They also sound very nice too.
I do admit in stock tune the Defenders 122hp and throttle control is rather pony, but a re-map will see 170-180hp and a much, much better drive.
Only downer with the newer Defenders and esp the TD5's is the sheet metal on the body seems to have got thinner and thinner, so corrode more and dent easier.
In fact this is a very important point IMO. The key thing with a Defender is EVERY part of it is replaceable.
So you have a choice, spend all your money on as a new as possible. Or buy old and sort it.
There is no reason why you can't fit a disc brake rear axle to an early 110. Or any reason why you can't fit a newer engine and/or gearbox.
All body panels bolt on, so can be replaced. In fact this even allows you to change a hard top to a pick up and vice versa. You can also get side windows fitted to hard tops easily.
So in many ways, if you are paying cash and not finance for a Defender, there is a very strong argument to say, sod it. Buy a cheap one for £2k with tidy body work. Strip it down and sort the chassis out or place it (new chassis is ~£1200 but all sections can be bought and welded in, newer TD5's are already needing cross member's so age is almost unimportant). Fit an EFI V8 or Tdi engine, new seats and new paint and it'd be fantastic, probably cost you less overall and still be worth just as much to sell on.
I suppose what I'm saying is, there are always possibilities....
Lastly, do make sure a Defender is right for you. If you don't like the lack of elbow room, find it too cramped or too uncomfortable then it's the wrong vehicle for you. And you'd be much better off with a Discovery.
Sure I know most people think the Disco of inferior but that's complete bull! The Disco uses the same box section chassis, the same engines, the same suspension, the same gearboxes, the same axles. The only difference is the wheelbase is 100" where as a Defender is either 110" or 92.9" depending on if its a 90 or 110. And the body. The Disco body is a bit wider to give you the elbow room, has more comfy seats and a more luxurious cabin with more sound proofing.
Newer then you need to check the banding, although if you get one classified as a "commercial", usually pickups and hard tops without rear seats then they pay the commercial rate. It's all on the Direct Gov website, just Google "car tax".
As for engines, well it's easy, there are 3 main ones. All Defender's are diesels bar a few special editions and NAS (North American spec) models.
Early One Ten's (before the Defender moniker) had a different engine line up.
I'll start at the beginning as it's probably easier.
Very early 110's (think circa 1983/4) used the old Series engines. Very few and probably not worth worrying about.
Later ones used the Rover 3.5 V8 on twin Stromberg carbs making ~137hp and 187lb ft. Good for it's day and sound nice, but will be heavy on fuel. As low as 12mpg pottering and off road and upto 17 or maybe 19mpg on a run.
diesels where available in 2.5 TD form and a few (Mil spec) with 2.5 n/a. Not a bad engine and made just under 90hp in TD form and 67hp in n/a form. Quite noisy and under powered by today's standards. Although the 2.5 TD is sufficient to run at 65mph on the m-way and pottering about in. Interestingly the block these use is based on the old Series motor's petrol block from the 50's/60's. MPG wise expect low to mid 20's.
There was also a 2.5 n/a petrol, which again was based on a Series 2.25 unit. Similar mpg to the V8 and similar HP to the TD unit.
Most of the above all have 5 speed gearboxes, LT-77 although the V8 used the stronger but not so nice to use LT-85. All had drum rear brakes.
Move on to around 1990'ish when the Defender name was introduced. V8's stopped production in around 87 iirc and the old TD unit was replaced with the 200Tdi engine. This is actually still the same block, but now used a direct injection fueling method and different turbo. It really is the mainstay of LR engines at present and a well respected unit. Power jumped to 107hp for Defenders (111hp for the new Disco and classic RR). Still using the LT-77 5 speed box. I think disc rear brakes were introduced at this time too.
The Tdi engine is very good and can see over 30mpg if driven gently, although mid 20's are more the norm. The best thing with these is they are very tunable on the cheap. A few tweaks of the injector pump, bigger intercooler and more boost will liberate 35% more power and see over 150hp. In this guise they will rival a fuel injected V8 in real terms on the road. Places like Allisport will do this for you for around £400, but there are lots of tuning companies, or you can do it yourself.
In around 1994i'sh the 300Tdi engine was introduced. It's actually a development of the 200Tdi, so again same block. It's supposed to be more "refined" although I personally don't think there is much difference. It has a big black plastic/rubber engine cover and EGR. It makes the samw 111hp as the Disco spec 200Tdi. It is equally tunable as the 200Tdi and will see almost identical hp figures. Some claim mpg isn't quite as good, but to be honest I think it matters not. I had a 300TDI D90 back in 1997, I used to rag it everywhere and it typically did 23mpg, it did have the pump "tweaked" but no other mods. Currently have a modded 200Tdi with big intercooler. In a Disco on big wheels it does around 21-22mpg.
Only other changes with the 300Tdi are a new 5 speed box known as an R380. Reverse is in a different place on the selector, but it's not actually all that different from an LT-77. In fact it really is an LT-77 with some development, but it's not really any stronger or better to use IMO, or at least not enough to worry about. I think it's about this time when 24 spline axles became the norm replacing the 10 spline ones, although I'm not 100% certain for Defenders. In either case it actually makes little odds though.
Next up is the TD5's, which had a slightly revised dash, doors changed at some point to a one piece frame (used to be welded in the top corner before) and different door rubbers. ABS and traction control available. Fly-by-wire throttle was introduced.
Personally I think the TD5 is actually the best engine (although many will say TDI). But the Td5 so easily out performs the Tdi it's not even funny. They also sound very nice too.
I do admit in stock tune the Defenders 122hp and throttle control is rather pony, but a re-map will see 170-180hp and a much, much better drive.
Only downer with the newer Defenders and esp the TD5's is the sheet metal on the body seems to have got thinner and thinner, so corrode more and dent easier.
In fact this is a very important point IMO. The key thing with a Defender is EVERY part of it is replaceable.
So you have a choice, spend all your money on as a new as possible. Or buy old and sort it.
There is no reason why you can't fit a disc brake rear axle to an early 110. Or any reason why you can't fit a newer engine and/or gearbox.
All body panels bolt on, so can be replaced. In fact this even allows you to change a hard top to a pick up and vice versa. You can also get side windows fitted to hard tops easily.
So in many ways, if you are paying cash and not finance for a Defender, there is a very strong argument to say, sod it. Buy a cheap one for £2k with tidy body work. Strip it down and sort the chassis out or place it (new chassis is ~£1200 but all sections can be bought and welded in, newer TD5's are already needing cross member's so age is almost unimportant). Fit an EFI V8 or Tdi engine, new seats and new paint and it'd be fantastic, probably cost you less overall and still be worth just as much to sell on.
I suppose what I'm saying is, there are always possibilities....
Lastly, do make sure a Defender is right for you. If you don't like the lack of elbow room, find it too cramped or too uncomfortable then it's the wrong vehicle for you. And you'd be much better off with a Discovery.
Sure I know most people think the Disco of inferior but that's complete bull! The Disco uses the same box section chassis, the same engines, the same suspension, the same gearboxes, the same axles. The only difference is the wheelbase is 100" where as a Defender is either 110" or 92.9" depending on if its a 90 or 110. And the body. The Disco body is a bit wider to give you the elbow room, has more comfy seats and a more luxurious cabin with more sound proofing.
This is why I love Piston Heads. What a mine of information. I really like the idea of an old 110 done how I want it, but I would be paying somebody to do it for me so may not be economical. Thanks again for the advice, just got to wait for the TDV8 to sell then its shopping time :-)
Ian
Ian
ilaishley said:
This is why I love Piston Heads. What a mine of information. I really like the idea of an old 110 done how I want it, but I would be paying somebody to do it for me so may not be economical. Thanks again for the advice, just got to wait for the TDV8 to sell then its shopping time :-)
Ian
Personally it's what I'd do if I had the opportunity. Doing this also would allow you to build it up how you want it, such as with upgrades like suspension, steering and so on.Ian
But it is all about having the money to do it and a little time. Most LR people should be able to do this (in fact almost any mechanic should be able to, it's easy just time consuming). Getting in touch with a local 4x4 or Land Rover club would almost certainly point you at someone who could do this.
For example you could buy an MoT failed Disco or a crashed one from Universal Salvage for not a lot of money. eBay has Disco's for under £1500 in working order.
Such as a 3.9 V8.
Strip the engine, gearbox and rear axle off the Disco, scrap the rest and get ~£50 or whatever for the scrap metal.
Buy a cheap rotten early 110. Slap on a new chassis: http://www.richardschassis.co.uk/defender.htm
Slap it all together. Add some new suspension either on or off road biased. New seats, paint job. And you'd end up with a near mint good spec 110 that'll not rot anytime soon and should last for 20 years+ before needing major work. In terms of an asset, it'd probably be worth to sell at least what it's cost you, maybe even a tad more.
But I do admit, such a route is not for everyone.
Don't forget to put a few quid aside for securing the vehicle. As it's going to belong to you I assume you'll want it to still be on the driveway in the morning - they are very knickable at the moment and due to their construction are easily broken down into their component parts, never to be seen again. A 110 with a roofrack will be too high to get into a normal sized garage.
Pedal locks, gear lever locks, steering wheel locks, alarms, immobilsers, land mines etc should all be considered.
Pedal locks, gear lever locks, steering wheel locks, alarms, immobilsers, land mines etc should all be considered.
[quote= All body panels bolt on, so can be replaced. In fact this even allows you to change a hard top to a pick up and vice versa. You can also get side windows fitted to hard tops easily.
[/quote]
Interesting. My wife really wants a Defender 90. We decided to go commercial to avoid the £400 tax bill on a non-commercial and she likes the looks of the no rear window models.
Problem is that this seems the most expensive model! Pickups seem a lot cheaper. Does that mean we can convert it later? If so any ideas of the cost?
Also if you buy a hardtop am I right in thinking that if they have the fold up seats but no rear windows they are commercial? What happens if you put windows in later does that make it non-commercial or is it a case of once commercial always commercial?
Thanks
Stuart
[/quote]
Interesting. My wife really wants a Defender 90. We decided to go commercial to avoid the £400 tax bill on a non-commercial and she likes the looks of the no rear window models.
Problem is that this seems the most expensive model! Pickups seem a lot cheaper. Does that mean we can convert it later? If so any ideas of the cost?
Also if you buy a hardtop am I right in thinking that if they have the fold up seats but no rear windows they are commercial? What happens if you put windows in later does that make it non-commercial or is it a case of once commercial always commercial?
Thanks
Stuart
Edited by Court Jester on Thursday 29th July 22:50
Swapping from pick up to hard top will vary on where and how you get the bits and if you do it yourself. In short it just bolts on, but you'll need the rubber seals and if you want a roof lining and interior light then you'll need to sort it. Also you might need to paint it to match.
I'll have your TDV8 off you if you are struggling to sell it (Hahahahahaha!!)
I got a 2.5 TD 90 (1989) and dropped a 3.9 stage 3 V8 John Eales special into it - fun per £ it knocks everything else into touch!!
base cost <£4k
£(CENSORED-IN-CASE-THE-WIFE-FINDS-OUT) spent on some subtle upgrades....... to make it more useful for the fields / stables etc (OBVIOUSLY)
like winch, 2"lift, 35"MT tyres, new hood, cobra bucket seats (ebay is fab!)
£7k and a few hours will get you an awesome defender, either TD / 200TDi with loadsa mods, 300TDi with fewer mods, or a reasonably standard TD5.... and for not TOO much more you too could have a wailing beast that can actually pull very little wheelies (just waiting for the 1/2shaft to turn to dust!!)
GOOD LUCK IN YOUR QUEST!!
ENJOY!!
GNG
I got a 2.5 TD 90 (1989) and dropped a 3.9 stage 3 V8 John Eales special into it - fun per £ it knocks everything else into touch!!
base cost <£4k
£(CENSORED-IN-CASE-THE-WIFE-FINDS-OUT) spent on some subtle upgrades....... to make it more useful for the fields / stables etc (OBVIOUSLY)
like winch, 2"lift, 35"MT tyres, new hood, cobra bucket seats (ebay is fab!)
£7k and a few hours will get you an awesome defender, either TD / 200TDi with loadsa mods, 300TDi with fewer mods, or a reasonably standard TD5.... and for not TOO much more you too could have a wailing beast that can actually pull very little wheelies (just waiting for the 1/2shaft to turn to dust!!)
GOOD LUCK IN YOUR QUEST!!
ENJOY!!
GNG
Court Jester said:
Stupid question maybe but doesn't a pickup have a back to the cab? How does that work when you bolt the hardtop on?
The upper half of the rear of the cab, and the shorter roof come off, leaving a half-height bulkhead as per a hardtop.Worth remembering too that if you do add seats and windows to a commercial, it'll still be classed as a commercial on the V5 so you might run in to insurance issues and/or fall foul of the new London Low Emission Zone and similar schemes elsewhere, in that although it looks like a County it's still a van on paper.
Love my 90 v8 csw. It's got twin SU carbs and runs on lpg, on a run it'll do around 18 mpg average for 70odd pence per litre, i can get 22mpg running on petrol. All in all it's been a great tool and very useful.
I reckon they are great bits of kit, they seem to be able to carry almost anything and yet you can barely feel the weight. I have considered diesels but if you can find a V8 I can vouch that they are great fun and sound the part and cheap enough to rin on lpg. Most landys need money spending on them to make them vaguely quick, even the v8s, but there are numerous tunersout there especially for the diesel models.
I'd recommend joining a couple of landy forums.
I reckon they are great bits of kit, they seem to be able to carry almost anything and yet you can barely feel the weight. I have considered diesels but if you can find a V8 I can vouch that they are great fun and sound the part and cheap enough to rin on lpg. Most landys need money spending on them to make them vaguely quick, even the v8s, but there are numerous tunersout there especially for the diesel models.
I'd recommend joining a couple of landy forums.
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