NEWcars=boring sowho do makers listen to when re-making them
Discussion
Nice simple answer there, just what I would expect at PH,
"Nothing stopping you buying older cars."
Makers can make fun cars that have major safety improvements that drivers need for things like oh say living if for instance some half blind man drives into me.
I think now I understand why makers make what they want... consumers know what they want but are too afraid and apathetic to ask- just as with most all else in our world. A motley bunch most humans are; sadly. J
"Nothing stopping you buying older cars."
Makers can make fun cars that have major safety improvements that drivers need for things like oh say living if for instance some half blind man drives into me.
I think now I understand why makers make what they want... consumers know what they want but are too afraid and apathetic to ask- just as with most all else in our world. A motley bunch most humans are; sadly. J
They make what will sell.
Remember, the average person doesn't especially enjoy driving. It's a means to an end, something they do usually because it's a quicker and cheaper option than the alternatives. They care about how much it'll cost to run (and will get wildly swung by mpg claims and annual tax amounts even though they're minor compared to the depreciation) and how safe it is. Then they might care about brand, image, equipment levels and other stuff. Somewhere down the bottom will be performance and handling.
The numpties who buy a new bland hatch every 3 years, or the new parents who feel they have to have the safest, newest thing going for their little darlings, make the manufacturers far more money than the "driving enthusiasts". The people who claim they'd buy something that ticks all their boxes but who would actually read a review that it feels slightly wooly at 10/10ths and turn their noses up and go back to their old cars.
Some enthusiasts, a very very small number of them, might actually put their money where their mouths are and order a genuine enthusiast-targeted car. The vast majority would get tempted away by all the interesting older stuff they could have instead. When the market is like that, is it any wonder manufacturers don't really bother?
Remember, the average person doesn't especially enjoy driving. It's a means to an end, something they do usually because it's a quicker and cheaper option than the alternatives. They care about how much it'll cost to run (and will get wildly swung by mpg claims and annual tax amounts even though they're minor compared to the depreciation) and how safe it is. Then they might care about brand, image, equipment levels and other stuff. Somewhere down the bottom will be performance and handling.
The numpties who buy a new bland hatch every 3 years, or the new parents who feel they have to have the safest, newest thing going for their little darlings, make the manufacturers far more money than the "driving enthusiasts". The people who claim they'd buy something that ticks all their boxes but who would actually read a review that it feels slightly wooly at 10/10ths and turn their noses up and go back to their old cars.
Some enthusiasts, a very very small number of them, might actually put their money where their mouths are and order a genuine enthusiast-targeted car. The vast majority would get tempted away by all the interesting older stuff they could have instead. When the market is like that, is it any wonder manufacturers don't really bother?
A good point made above. Unfortunately most people are about as interested in their car as I am in my fridge. In that I want it to keep my stuff cold, not be too expensive, have enough space for my stuff, maybe even look flash if I've got some spare money - but I don't particularly care about the fastest speed the fridge can cool my warm drink, or its temperature handling through a rapid on/off cycle. People that talk on forums about their fridges don't make sense to me, nor do people who spend all Sunday detailing the exterior, or upgrading its internals (just buy a newer fridge!).
In summary, fridge enthusiasts are mental - I just want it to keep my beers cold.
In summary, fridge enthusiasts are mental - I just want it to keep my beers cold.
Actually I think there are a number of drivers- maybe something like 20%, who would tick the box that says fun to drive; if it was offered and not too expensive.
I think makers could rather simply (as Renault do) offer fun versions of their dull boxes. Apparently Renault do not spend much at all on their R cars.
Its very possible but it seems people are too quiet and of course the press are impossibly polite (and I'm being polite in putting that) and advocate never for such things. So we're not getting much help here on this. j
I think makers could rather simply (as Renault do) offer fun versions of their dull boxes. Apparently Renault do not spend much at all on their R cars.
Its very possible but it seems people are too quiet and of course the press are impossibly polite (and I'm being polite in putting that) and advocate never for such things. So we're not getting much help here on this. j
I prefer running 10-12 year old smallish cars as my personal car - I fall into the fridge category when it comes to cars - hate driving them after years of field service engineering.
I don't get why people want to buy a brand new Fiesta or suchlike - seems like a waste of money to me. I would rather buy an old car without finance and deal with the repairs as tehy happen on that level.
I don't get why people want to buy a brand new Fiesta or suchlike - seems like a waste of money to me. I would rather buy an old car without finance and deal with the repairs as tehy happen on that level.
j123 said:
Actually I think there are a number of drivers- maybe something like 20%, who would tick the box that says fun to drive
Having someone tick a box in the absence of any other variables is hardly the foundation of a business/marketing plan.If it were, you could sell this groundbreaking insight with the corporate giants. They can then do the math and see that their business models are flawed.
As stated above, most people don't enjoy driving and would rather companies spent their money on refinement. Lotus show us how expensive it is to whittle away at a car to make it a good driver's car (comapre the cost of the Evora with other cars in the sector for example). Most drivers, even of performance cars, grip the wheel with one hand and corner totally out of balance, so they just don't care about steering feel or throttle response.
Most buyers of performance cars just want something fast, and they aren't bothered about throttle response, steering feel etc. My Z4 Coupé has a delay on the throttle, a clutch delay valve and lifeless electric power steering. Ergo, it may be a very good car, but it's not a true driver's car. However, 99.99% of Z4C buyers simply didn't care, because BMW concentrated on other things that those 99.99% of people wanted, such as the sound it makes, how fast it goes, how comfortable and refined it is and how fast it corners, and in all those areas it's absolutely fantastic.
Most buyers of everyday cars just want it to do a job, like I want my washing machine to. I don't care if my washing machine is dull, provided it works well.
Most buyers of performance cars just want something fast, and they aren't bothered about throttle response, steering feel etc. My Z4 Coupé has a delay on the throttle, a clutch delay valve and lifeless electric power steering. Ergo, it may be a very good car, but it's not a true driver's car. However, 99.99% of Z4C buyers simply didn't care, because BMW concentrated on other things that those 99.99% of people wanted, such as the sound it makes, how fast it goes, how comfortable and refined it is and how fast it corners, and in all those areas it's absolutely fantastic.
Most buyers of everyday cars just want it to do a job, like I want my washing machine to. I don't care if my washing machine is dull, provided it works well.
RobM77 said:
Most buyers of everyday cars just want it to do a job, like I want my washing machine to. I don't care if my washing machine is dull, provided it works well.
Exactly. Most people want refinement, comfort, quietness and economy. All things that most enthusiasts would willingly shun for a good drive.rsv gone! said:
RobM77 said:
Most buyers of everyday cars just want it to do a job, like I want my washing machine to. I don't care if my washing machine is dull, provided it works well.
Exactly. Most people want refinement, comfort, quietness and economy. All things that most enthusiasts would willingly shun for a good drive.
As an enthusiast I want those things from my everyday car too, but steering feel, throttle response and brake pedal weighting are only of a concern for a very small minority of car buyers, and it's simply not worth a manufacturer engineering them in.
In the 1980s, such things were present in cars like the 205 purely by accident. I've often said that the only reason I'm a car enthusiast now is because when I learnt to drive I drove 1980s cars like the 205, AX GT etc. If I learnt to drive now on a car with a drive by wire throttle, over assisted power steering and a wobbky ride, I probably wouldn't be interested in cars at all.
People absolutely loved their 205's/306's,105's, clio's, Audi 80's/100's, VW golf gti's, M3's, 944's etc.
I disagree with the prevailing opinions on this.
People go with the wind, most people would like a great many things, but simply don't have the time, and don't want to be bothered. I mean REALLY now, what are they going to do, stop buying new cars, come on now.
Certainly if makers made sport models that drove like their classics a good number would buy them- that of course is only if they did.
And no people I'm not making an economic argument, I'm just saying it would make no economic difference to the makers but WOULD make a difference to about 20% of drivers who want some fun. j
I disagree with the prevailing opinions on this.
People go with the wind, most people would like a great many things, but simply don't have the time, and don't want to be bothered. I mean REALLY now, what are they going to do, stop buying new cars, come on now.
Certainly if makers made sport models that drove like their classics a good number would buy them- that of course is only if they did.
And no people I'm not making an economic argument, I'm just saying it would make no economic difference to the makers but WOULD make a difference to about 20% of drivers who want some fun. j
Focus groups mostly with the bigger manufacturers. They listen to these idiots and we get what they decide we need. A manufacturer will ask them "would you like more leg room in your next Golf?" and they say yes. "Would you like more safety features in your next Fiesta?" and they say yes. That and ever more ridiculous regulation is why we get the bloated behemoths we have today. Isn't a Golf Mk6 something like twice the weight of a Mk1 now?
j123 said:
People absolutely loved their 205's/306's,105's, clio's, Audi 80's/100's, VW golf gti's, M3's, 944's etc.
I disagree with the prevailing opinions on this.
People go with the wind, most people would like a great many things, but simply don't have the time, and don't want to be bothered. I mean REALLY now, what are they going to do, stop buying new cars, come on now.
Certainly if makers made sport models that drove like their classics a good number would buy them- that of course is only if they did.
And no people I'm not making an economic argument, I'm just saying it would make no economic difference to the makers but WOULD make a difference to about 20% of drivers who want some fun. j
I disagree with the prevailing opinions on this.
People go with the wind, most people would like a great many things, but simply don't have the time, and don't want to be bothered. I mean REALLY now, what are they going to do, stop buying new cars, come on now.
Certainly if makers made sport models that drove like their classics a good number would buy them- that of course is only if they did.
And no people I'm not making an economic argument, I'm just saying it would make no economic difference to the makers but WOULD make a difference to about 20% of drivers who want some fun. j
Sorry, I was probably mis-understood with my point about 1980s hatches. The average buyer of a 205 would have probably prefered the 207 if you could send one back in a time machine, because it's more refined, does more to the gallon, is more reliable and you can start it when the engine's warm
Fact is, they wouldn't miss the 205's steering feel, amazing ride/handling balance and nicely weighted controls. Nobody at Peugeot said in a board meeting in 1980 "we must make a car with nice steering that's light enough to not need power assistance", these things just happened by accident because of the regulations, engineering and possibilities of the era.My point extends in that surprisingly similar criteria that are used to design a mundane car like the 207 are used to design most sports cars as well (then and now), because most sports car buyers want something that looks sporty and goes fast; again, they don't care about steering feel too much. I'm convinced that Such things are engineered in as a "nice to have" if a car company have the time and money. I'd say the only company that really care about these things is probably Lotus. I'm sure even Porsche would sign off a car with poor steering feel and a laggy throttle, because it does everything else so well (see the Cayman thread running at the moment, because it seems like they did).
for me the zenith (or possibly nadir!) was probably the late 90s/early 00s.
Pumas
Kas
Elises
e46s
e39s
mk1 focii
306 (albeit they're a bit on the lethal side)
dc2s
atr a light saloon perish the thought
gazillions of other things:
i think the r53 bini like mine is a reasonable compromise between old and new but there are still things that aren;t as good as if it were older. but some of the materials are nicer.
my dad had a puma and i had one briefly.
my dad would have bought another. but they didn;t make them. okay so it's a bit odd for a man in 50s to have a puma but for him to have got a fiesta ST.. oh feck off.
why did ford never build a focus st estate?
why isn;t there a truly sporting ovlov c30?
why can;t you buy a 5 dr 135i?
why does the current ctr not have multilink rear suspension?
why is there no toyota mr2 or sillycar?
why has the ft86 been canned?
why is the impreza steering (supposed) to be s
te?
why didn;t honda make the crz (or whatever it's called) actually handle well so it could have been a great enthusiasts car.
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i could go on for forever.
Pumas
Kas
Elises
e46s
e39s
mk1 focii
306 (albeit they're a bit on the lethal side)
dc2s
atr a light saloon perish the thought
gazillions of other things:
i think the r53 bini like mine is a reasonable compromise between old and new but there are still things that aren;t as good as if it were older. but some of the materials are nicer.
my dad had a puma and i had one briefly.
my dad would have bought another. but they didn;t make them. okay so it's a bit odd for a man in 50s to have a puma but for him to have got a fiesta ST.. oh feck off.
why did ford never build a focus st estate?
why isn;t there a truly sporting ovlov c30?
why can;t you buy a 5 dr 135i?
why does the current ctr not have multilink rear suspension?
why is there no toyota mr2 or sillycar?
why has the ft86 been canned?
why is the impreza steering (supposed) to be s
te?why didn;t honda make the crz (or whatever it's called) actually handle well so it could have been a great enthusiasts car.
__
i could go on for forever.
briSk said:
why is there no toyota mr2?
The main reason is the answer to this thread - most people want a practical car for getting from A to B, even if they're buying a performance car. Looks and straight line pace are where the performance car experience stops for most people.The rest of the reason though is purely Toyota's fault - they gave the car no boot. Five years ago I was on a fairly low salary and had saved up £10k for a three year old MR2. I absolutely love the way they drive; I rate them higher than the MX5 in fact. However, I actually dipped into my savings further and bought an Elise instead because it was more practical
Toyota must have got something wrong when someone says that!The first reason is the main one though, which explains the lack of Celica.
RobM77 said:
briSk said:
why has the ft86 been canned?
I didn't know this?! I was quite interested in it, and have even called up a Toyota dealer about it.it's the only car with the exception of lotii and porsches (both of which i will not 'choose to afford' if you will) that really appeals to me.
I can appreciate the golf gti (mk5) for what it is so i guess if i were in the market for a company car i am sure the mk6 would do the job. but for me if i were spending a lot of money (and £20k+ is a lot of money nothing much appeals.
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overall (oh heck i am off now) it's all the effing auto wipers and lights type nonsense. i don;t need these because, guess what, i have two column stalks behind the steering wheel that allow me to operate the lights and wipers...
i don;t need phones. i don;t need any of this stuff. i certainly don;t need a seat that massages me.
why can;t you just buy cars with properly adjustable driving positions with good lights, visibility and good control weights..?
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