Discussion
Hi peeps,
I've been researching into the unleaded conversion route as I have 4 spare heads (and found 2 more on ebay in Notts for £20 but need a very good clean up)
I've had a quote from 1 company quoting £157+vat for both heads and another company in the town that I live for £450 - 600 + vat and 2 weeks to do it in...
I know that some people have had the conversions done (milling out the exhaust valve seat, pressure fit new one and then tapering the seat to seat the valve)
How much have people paid?? Does anybody recommend anywhere in the Doncaster or surrounding area.. I don't mind travelling a distance, up to press the £160 quote is an 80 mile trip one direction, but compared to near £600 I don't mind it at all.
Many thanks for help
Mick
I've been researching into the unleaded conversion route as I have 4 spare heads (and found 2 more on ebay in Notts for £20 but need a very good clean up)
I've had a quote from 1 company quoting £157+vat for both heads and another company in the town that I live for £450 - 600 + vat and 2 weeks to do it in...
I know that some people have had the conversions done (milling out the exhaust valve seat, pressure fit new one and then tapering the seat to seat the valve)
How much have people paid?? Does anybody recommend anywhere in the Doncaster or surrounding area.. I don't mind travelling a distance, up to press the £160 quote is an 80 mile trip one direction, but compared to near £600 I don't mind it at all.
Many thanks for help
Mick
Wht not go for a pair of bigger valve heads while your doing it, there's a place in Darwen Lancs, do them about £400.00 a pair exchange for thier fast road heads, which are suitable for unleaded.
http://www.essexengines.com/
http://www.essexengines.com/
Edited by GAjon on Thursday 1st July 19:09
I would not bother - seat can fall out! Happened to me on a TR6 (you can imagiune waht it would do to the bores!) - our next head we kept unleaded on the below advise (we do not do many miles). Mind they should not come out - but sod law!
Easier to lap them the valve in ever 3- 4 years if the car only does a few thou miles per year.
Easier to lap them the valve in ever 3- 4 years if the car only does a few thou miles per year.
jellison said:
I would not bother - seat can fall out! Happened to me on a TR6 (you can imagiune waht it would do to the bores!) - our next head we kept unleaded on the below advise (we do not do many miles). Mind they should not come out - but sod law!
Easier to lap them the valve in ever 3- 4 years if the car only does a few thou miles per year.
Surely that just shows that the job wasn't done correctly. And the consequences when it isn't done correctly.Easier to lap them the valve in ever 3- 4 years if the car only does a few thou miles per year.
That says to me too it wasnt done correctly...
I have met guys at a meet in Newark the other weekend who have had it done.. and many people have had all sorts of cars done.. I am planning on keep the tvr for a long time, I'm only 24 as it is so it will get use
It just seems the best idea to do really for economicality and saves buying lead suppliment
I have met guys at a meet in Newark the other weekend who have had it done.. and many people have had all sorts of cars done.. I am planning on keep the tvr for a long time, I'm only 24 as it is so it will get use
It just seems the best idea to do really for economicality and saves buying lead suppliment
whitewolf said:
That says to me too it wasnt done correctly...
I have met guys at a meet in Newark the other weekend who have had it done.. and many people have had all sorts of cars done.. I am planning on keep the tvr for a long time, I'm only 24 as it is so it will get use
It just seems the best idea to do really for economicality and saves buying lead suppliment
The last quote tells me you've not had much experience with engines.I have met guys at a meet in Newark the other weekend who have had it done.. and many people have had all sorts of cars done.. I am planning on keep the tvr for a long time, I'm only 24 as it is so it will get use
It just seems the best idea to do really for economicality and saves buying lead suppliment
Jelly has a point! Why do you need to convert to unleaded? The fables about unleaded and valve seat recession have been massively over estimated over the years. running a car on unleaded if doing relatively low mileages shouldn't give you any real problem, Running with a tetra ethyl lead additive will also ensure you don't have any problems!
The process of machining a head and inserting a hardened seat for subsequent machining rely's purely on a machined interferance fit of a chilled hardened seat. the reality is that some seats even when installed with the utmost care to a very good tolerance fit can just drop out when the car is used in anger.
My advice to you would be to just use the car and very now and then add some tetra ethyl lead additive to your fuel. Your other option is to just use your car and when you have reached 100k or so miles re-build your engine like everyone used to back in the day!!
N
Whooa - I have a point!
A good combination here is use the additive every 3rd or 4th fill up (we never use it but do under 1k miles pa - I doubt I'd bother even if I did alot more - as like Neil says all this unleaded stuff got blown out of all proportion many years back.
FYI - I had my 3000M when 22 - thought I'd have it a long time - trust me, things change fast at that age;)
Drive it like you stole it
A good combination here is use the additive every 3rd or 4th fill up (we never use it but do under 1k miles pa - I doubt I'd bother even if I did alot more - as like Neil says all this unleaded stuff got blown out of all proportion many years back.
FYI - I had my 3000M when 22 - thought I'd have it a long time - trust me, things change fast at that age;)
Drive it like you stole it
Here we go..a little bit of lead, the thought of changing to unleaded had crossed my mind as I filled up with super unleaded and proceeded down the slip road chasing the M5 that had gone past me....and bang, the head of the valve went through the engine.
When you put in the additives/tank of leaded fuel, you are 'laying down' halides and oxides that stop the the valve from sticking together, so, 1 in 3 works for the runabout type of driving BUT you could NOT then put ONE replacement valve in that same engine and expect the same result (old engine internals are life hardened) and the H&A deposits also take time to build up.
What happens in tuned versions of the V6 is that the valve heats up and the face attempts to attach/weld itself to the head, drawing off and putting down head/valve material, in my case the valve head!
IMHO When you change to unleaded inserts you create a weak point...the joint between the machined face of the aperture that has been created for the insert to go into and the insert itself, the insert material must heat up and cool at the same rate as the head material and perhaps a recovery insert rather than a standard (the bigger the better) with larger valve faces than standard (to aid cooling)....back to weak point...when the valve attempts to attach/weld to the insert there is little hope for it and bang....one insert through the engine.
Adrian@
When you put in the additives/tank of leaded fuel, you are 'laying down' halides and oxides that stop the the valve from sticking together, so, 1 in 3 works for the runabout type of driving BUT you could NOT then put ONE replacement valve in that same engine and expect the same result (old engine internals are life hardened) and the H&A deposits also take time to build up.
What happens in tuned versions of the V6 is that the valve heats up and the face attempts to attach/weld itself to the head, drawing off and putting down head/valve material, in my case the valve head!
IMHO When you change to unleaded inserts you create a weak point...the joint between the machined face of the aperture that has been created for the insert to go into and the insert itself, the insert material must heat up and cool at the same rate as the head material and perhaps a recovery insert rather than a standard (the bigger the better) with larger valve faces than standard (to aid cooling)....back to weak point...when the valve attempts to attach/weld to the insert there is little hope for it and bang....one insert through the engine.
Adrian@
Edited by Adrian@ on Tuesday 6th July 14:48
Good reply Adrian.
And yes the bigger the valve (i.e. if a ported fast road or full race type revalving of th head) the thinner the insert will be once machined to suit.
So with smaller / std valve it might make a bit of sense (not much IMHO), but the bigger you go the more dodgy. So on our next head we thought - er no way, cut the valve into the iron on the head.
You'd have had that M5 for sure........................!
And yes the bigger the valve (i.e. if a ported fast road or full race type revalving of th head) the thinner the insert will be once machined to suit.
So with smaller / std valve it might make a bit of sense (not much IMHO), but the bigger you go the more dodgy. So on our next head we thought - er no way, cut the valve into the iron on the head.
You'd have had that M5 for sure........................!
hi..
tbh I've had experience with engines, but not down the route of valve seats and unleaded conversion..
although after reading this post and everyones contribution it would appear very much that its worth just buying the addatives and running the engine as she is
to this I'll do a bit of research into the addatives, the tetry thingy bob is what i need to look into.
Have seen some weird and wonderful creations on ebay - literally dropping lead lumps into petrol tanks and the in-line lead feeds by cutting the fuel line and inserting the lead tube in (although some website have said it'll contain tin, rather then lead) but after looking on the net (and not having tried myself yet) that petrol doesnt dissolve lead, so that would be no good.
Do anybody have a recommendation of lead substitute? brand? roughly prices??
A search on ebay does bring up cheaper offers then in shops - 6 bottles for £5 as opposted to 1 bottle of 250ml for £10, of which was the same stuff - Castrol Valve Master which boosts octane levels ( :S ) stabalises the fuel and contains that tetry thingy bobby.
Cheers so far for the advice people, I'm glad somebody can steer me into the right direction
quick link to ebay - http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_kw=lead&_kw=add...
tbh I've had experience with engines, but not down the route of valve seats and unleaded conversion..
although after reading this post and everyones contribution it would appear very much that its worth just buying the addatives and running the engine as she is
to this I'll do a bit of research into the addatives, the tetry thingy bob is what i need to look into.
Have seen some weird and wonderful creations on ebay - literally dropping lead lumps into petrol tanks and the in-line lead feeds by cutting the fuel line and inserting the lead tube in (although some website have said it'll contain tin, rather then lead) but after looking on the net (and not having tried myself yet) that petrol doesnt dissolve lead, so that would be no good.
Do anybody have a recommendation of lead substitute? brand? roughly prices??
A search on ebay does bring up cheaper offers then in shops - 6 bottles for £5 as opposted to 1 bottle of 250ml for £10, of which was the same stuff - Castrol Valve Master which boosts octane levels ( :S ) stabalises the fuel and contains that tetry thingy bobby.
Cheers so far for the advice people, I'm glad somebody can steer me into the right direction
quick link to ebay - http://shop.ebay.co.uk/i.html?_kw=lead&_kw=add...
Edited by whitewolf on Wednesday 7th July 11:53
Go the unleaded head route. I used substitutes last year and still finished up with valve seat recession after less than 20 hrs running. Additives are expensive and don't always do what they say on the tin!!
My race engine now has unleaded inserts as recommended by a very well respected engine builder.
My race engine now has unleaded inserts as recommended by a very well respected engine builder.
TVR_owner said:
Go the unleaded head route. I used substitutes last year and still finished up with valve seat recession after less than 20 hrs running. Additives are expensive and don't always do what they say on the tin!!
My race engine now has unleaded inserts as recommended by a very well respected engine builder.
I am surprised at that john! I thought you were running leaded heads.. But you do realise you have jinxed it all nowMy race engine now has unleaded inserts as recommended by a very well respected engine builder.
regards additives, there are many and some claim to do wonderful things. Tetra ethyl lead isn't a compound of additives. it is the stuff that the oil companies used to add to petrol as an anti knock agent and supposedly is still available on its own.
Actually, and not a lot of people know this but 4 star leaded petrol is still legal to buy and use in the UK. Oil companies can still actually legally sell a percentage of leaded fuel for automotive fuels. finding some now may be a different matter.
lead was also never banned in aero fuel! and many racers still use Av Gas. Again whether they are supposed to is a different story.
At the end of the day and its your choice a decision is made as to how much and how hard you will use your car. many unleaded seats have successfully been installed over the years but similarly If fitted you do have a possibility of one dropping out.
The company you recieved you're quote from also knows what they are doing and have been known to screw the odd race engine together;)
I would run your car first though till it needs head work rather than spend money up front un-necesarily.
N
Edited by heightswitch on Wednesday 7th July 19:43
Edited by heightswitch on Wednesday 7th July 19:47
true.. tbh after doing research theres people saying that they've ran cars on unleaded and never had problems for over 6 years.. then theres the people who have gone through 3 pinot's, a x-flow and other wenginges with VSR..
I have 4 spare heads so tbh I think it would be a case of running with adatives and if/when problems arise then go for the conversion.
The case of people saying that they've ran leaded engines on unleaded and not had problems isnt broke down into classification as some engines can be ran without any work.. where as the essex has been written that it cant be ran safely on unleaded.
When you say about driving the engine hard, how do you mean hard?? I mena I give my current car grief, corsa 1.2 twinport, up in higher revs but I dont go near the limiter or bounce on it and I dont always constantly stay up there.. If its anything to go by the original brake discs were only change 2 months ago after 70K miles, (I'm not looking for 'my black dogs blacker then your black dog' here) but I do think that that shows that I am a careful driver and dont rely on my brakes to slow me down so I guess I can be ragging ym car as bad as others.. I've known lads have to replace disc after 12K miles..
Possibly this being a characteristic of a young male driver of ragging the car everywhere.. but having the TVR is a classic and an honour in my eyes so shall not be hammering it everywhere (plus fuel crisis of a 3 ltr hahaha)
I think what I may do it put a poll up, to see how many people do have the unleaded conversion and rough mileage a year and have a glance at that research
Mick
I have 4 spare heads so tbh I think it would be a case of running with adatives and if/when problems arise then go for the conversion.
The case of people saying that they've ran leaded engines on unleaded and not had problems isnt broke down into classification as some engines can be ran without any work.. where as the essex has been written that it cant be ran safely on unleaded.
When you say about driving the engine hard, how do you mean hard?? I mena I give my current car grief, corsa 1.2 twinport, up in higher revs but I dont go near the limiter or bounce on it and I dont always constantly stay up there.. If its anything to go by the original brake discs were only change 2 months ago after 70K miles, (I'm not looking for 'my black dogs blacker then your black dog' here) but I do think that that shows that I am a careful driver and dont rely on my brakes to slow me down so I guess I can be ragging ym car as bad as others.. I've known lads have to replace disc after 12K miles..
Possibly this being a characteristic of a young male driver of ragging the car everywhere.. but having the TVR is a classic and an honour in my eyes so shall not be hammering it everywhere (plus fuel crisis of a 3 ltr hahaha)
I think what I may do it put a poll up, to see how many people do have the unleaded conversion and rough mileage a year and have a glance at that research
Mick
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