The Great Benefit Debate!
Discussion
The Benefits system is currently under great scrutiny, and it made me wonder how the whole system works.
I work for a living, my wife works part time, and we pay our taxes.
There is a lot of Daily Mail style hysteria being banded about regarding the benefits that people are on, with cars, sky, big TV's and can afford to drink and smoke all day - surely for the average person would equate to a + £20K pa lifestyle?
There has also been a lot of first hand experience from many people on here who have been made redundant, are on the dole and live on a pittance of £65.00 per week.
I know that if you are inventive, there is a lot of money to be made through the benefits system; how are they getting away with it? Is it like buget airlines, where certain extras rack up the cash? Eg a sandwich on a budget airline costs about £5.00 - I'm on benefits and I have children - more money?
Anyone know how it all works?
edited to state I worked nights last night, so that's why I can post at this time at home!
I work for a living, my wife works part time, and we pay our taxes.
There is a lot of Daily Mail style hysteria being banded about regarding the benefits that people are on, with cars, sky, big TV's and can afford to drink and smoke all day - surely for the average person would equate to a + £20K pa lifestyle?
There has also been a lot of first hand experience from many people on here who have been made redundant, are on the dole and live on a pittance of £65.00 per week.
I know that if you are inventive, there is a lot of money to be made through the benefits system; how are they getting away with it? Is it like buget airlines, where certain extras rack up the cash? Eg a sandwich on a budget airline costs about £5.00 - I'm on benefits and I have children - more money?
Anyone know how it all works?
edited to state I worked nights last night, so that's why I can post at this time at home!
Edited by Hell27 on Friday 2nd July 10:05
The system is co complicated that NO ONE really understands how it all works. In fact, it is unfair to call it a "Benefits System". It is actually a vast collection of means tested benefits, non-means tested benefits, tax credits (which are nothing to do with tax), tax reliefs, subsidised living costs etc etc. It has grown up organically over more than 100 years and is almnost impossible to unravel or make sense of.
Being a benefit monkey shouldn't be a lifestyle choice.
There are people in our society who need our help and that help should be forthcoming, however there are too many fat smelly Jeremy Kyle watching, Sunny D drinking, tracksuit wearing, workshy pikey scum who thinks society owes them a living for zero return. These are the people who should be targetted with a view to getting them off their arses.
There are people in our society who need our help and that help should be forthcoming, however there are too many fat smelly Jeremy Kyle watching, Sunny D drinking, tracksuit wearing, workshy pikey scum who thinks society owes them a living for zero return. These are the people who should be targetted with a view to getting them off their arses.
DavesFlaps said:
Being a benefit monkey shouldn't be a lifestyle choice.
There are people in our society who need our help and that help should be forthcoming, however there are too many fat smelly Jeremy Kyle watching, Sunny D drinking, tracksuit wearing, workshy pikey scum who thinks society owes them a living for zero return. These are the people who should be targetted with a view to getting them off their arses.
I've never understood why, unless you're physical unable to, people on benefits aren't made to work for them. Even people that have to stay at home to look after their 10 kids could do something. There are people in our society who need our help and that help should be forthcoming, however there are too many fat smelly Jeremy Kyle watching, Sunny D drinking, tracksuit wearing, workshy pikey scum who thinks society owes them a living for zero return. These are the people who should be targetted with a view to getting them off their arses.
My girlfriend came up with a good idea - Those on benefits should be made assistants to those who work.
e.g do the house cleaning, clean the dishes, do the ironing, wash cars....
Basically those of us who work would have a personal chav to do odd jobs around the house giving us time to relax after a hard days work
e.g do the house cleaning, clean the dishes, do the ironing, wash cars....
Basically those of us who work would have a personal chav to do odd jobs around the house giving us time to relax after a hard days work
Dr_Gonzo said:
DavesFlaps said:
Being a benefit monkey shouldn't be a lifestyle choice.
There are people in our society who need our help and that help should be forthcoming, however there are too many fat smelly Jeremy Kyle watching, Sunny D drinking, tracksuit wearing, workshy pikey scum who thinks society owes them a living for zero return. These are the people who should be targetted with a view to getting them off their arses.
I've never understood why, unless you're physical unable to, people on benefits aren't made to work for them. Even people that have to stay at home to look after their 10 kids could do something. There are people in our society who need our help and that help should be forthcoming, however there are too many fat smelly Jeremy Kyle watching, Sunny D drinking, tracksuit wearing, workshy pikey scum who thinks society owes them a living for zero return. These are the people who should be targetted with a view to getting them off their arses.
Eric Mc said:
The system is co complicated that NO ONE really understands how it all works. In fact, it is unfair to call it a "Benefits System". It is actually a vast collection of means tested benefits, non-means tested benefits, tax credits (which are nothing to do with tax), tax reliefs, subsidised living costs etc etc. It has grown up organically over more than 100 years and is almnost impossible to unravel or make sense of.
This is true and is why there are specialist companies who help people get/cheat them. quite frankly if someome is capable of completing the overly complex benefit form then they are fit for work! Its a bizarre system that once you are in you stay in but is a nightmare to get into. This is the reason noone declares any work they do and never leave it. It also seems to vary depending on who you speak to at the benefits office + there are so many jobcentre staff duplicating the same work.needs a very big brush
Tsippy said:
My girlfriend came up with a good idea - Those on benefits should be made assistants to those who work.
e.g do the house cleaning, clean the dishes, do the ironing, wash cars....
Basically those of us who work would have a personal chav to do odd jobs around the house giving us time to relax after a hard days work
I may have spotted a problem there.e.g do the house cleaning, clean the dishes, do the ironing, wash cars....
Basically those of us who work would have a personal chav to do odd jobs around the house giving us time to relax after a hard days work
Mainly the one where you come home from the said hard day's graft, and all of your belongings have gone and a Richard the Third is on the top shelf of your fridge.
.... 
Benefits and social care seem to be given out on a totally random basis, and the quality/variety of care from council to council seems to vary massively.
SWMBOs neighbours are scroungers. Both parents were drug addicts (lost their jobs, mother lost all but one of her teeth, children on the at-risk register apparently), got kicked out of their previous council sponsored accomodation for god knows what reason, and they were moved to the property next to SWMBO. 3 floor town house, nice property, close to the town center. Council/benefits pay for the property. Great.
SWMBOs mother is disabled, has been registered as such for years. Unable to work due to the constant pain of her disability. Stupidly she believed that the guy she was dating loved her, they had some more kids together (some bizarre generation gaps in the family). He then disappeared after losing his job. So she's in need of assistance, but the local council seem to be doing their absolute level best to totally f
k up her whole existence. Total lack of understanding of what sort of care package is needed.
So on the one hand we've got scroungers who should be kicked out all together, but are getting plenty of benefits, and on the other hand we've got people who need state assistance but are unable to get it.
SWMBOs neighbours are scroungers. Both parents were drug addicts (lost their jobs, mother lost all but one of her teeth, children on the at-risk register apparently), got kicked out of their previous council sponsored accomodation for god knows what reason, and they were moved to the property next to SWMBO. 3 floor town house, nice property, close to the town center. Council/benefits pay for the property. Great.
SWMBOs mother is disabled, has been registered as such for years. Unable to work due to the constant pain of her disability. Stupidly she believed that the guy she was dating loved her, they had some more kids together (some bizarre generation gaps in the family). He then disappeared after losing his job. So she's in need of assistance, but the local council seem to be doing their absolute level best to totally f
k up her whole existence. Total lack of understanding of what sort of care package is needed.So on the one hand we've got scroungers who should be kicked out all together, but are getting plenty of benefits, and on the other hand we've got people who need state assistance but are unable to get it.
"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way." Franklin D. Roosevelt, apparently, though I've seen other attributions.
It isn't going to change. It is in the interests of many, and I'm not referring to the bludgers, that it stays this way.
It isn't going to change. It is in the interests of many, and I'm not referring to the bludgers, that it stays this way.
DavesFlaps said:
Being a benefit monkey shouldn't be a lifestyle choice.
There are people in our society who need our help and that help should be forthcoming.
Funny that this thread should appear today, my partner and I had an appointment at the job center today. There are people in our society who need our help and that help should be forthcoming.
Outcome, basically I have outlived my usefulness.
Having children IMMEDIATLY debarred me from the pre arranged "joint" interview and my "partner" was asked to provide MY identification passport and driving licence.
Why don't you ask me for identification I asked, just stared at and BLANKED.
As you can imagine things went downhill from there.
I did ask if I could sign on whilst there but was told as the arranged "joint" interview had been terminated (really? I think they were, for some reason very happy to do this) I'd have to make another appointment.
So that's another 35 miles fuel and £2 parking fees then.
Ho Hum Gents, we are nothing more than sterling and sperm donors in the eyes of the DSS.
Benefits should be there to support people who are in need. so if you are out of work, through no fault of your own, you get enough to live on. By that it should be for food heat and the basics. Not to pay our interest of your house or TV or holidays.
Now what has happened is that it has all got out of control. If the dole, is say £100 why then should someone who is disabled get more? Why do they need a new car every three years etc etc.
When I was at school those who worked got more than those who did not, know it is the opporsite for some. Kids are worth cash and homes, people who work will wait until they can afford to have them, no such restraint for the underclass.
So in my world, those who cannot work would be looked after, those who wil not get nothing after 6 months, unless they do something for it, road cleaning etc.
Now what has happened is that it has all got out of control. If the dole, is say £100 why then should someone who is disabled get more? Why do they need a new car every three years etc etc.
When I was at school those who worked got more than those who did not, know it is the opporsite for some. Kids are worth cash and homes, people who work will wait until they can afford to have them, no such restraint for the underclass.
So in my world, those who cannot work would be looked after, those who wil not get nothing after 6 months, unless they do something for it, road cleaning etc.
spaximus said:
Benefits should be there to support people who are in need. so if you are out of work, through no fault of your own, you get enough to live on. By that it should be for food heat and the basics. Not to pay our interest of your house or TV or holidays.
Now what has happened is that it has all got out of control. If the dole, is say £100 why then should someone who is disabled get more? Why do they need a new car every three years etc etc.
I totally and utterly agree.Now what has happened is that it has all got out of control. If the dole, is say £100 why then should someone who is disabled get more? Why do they need a new car every three years etc etc.
The MiL is on the motability scheme, and recently got a new car. Even though the old one (Zafira) was still running absolutely perfectly. Is this just plain wasteful? No wonder the country is up to its neck in debt with such chronic wastage.
There are other issues as well - the independent health checks that are performed. SWMBO went through one after six months of long term sick. Apparently the doctors/GPs are not suitably qualified, you've got to send someone to sit down for an interview to determine if you're genuinely sick or not.
The health checks are bizzare - with the MiL being registered disabled, even she somehow got put through one of these checks, and somehow they decided she was totally able to work. Couldn't have been more wrong, took a little while to overturn the decision.
The country is well and truly f
ked.clonmult said:
The health checks are bizzare - with the MiL being registered disabled, even she somehow got put through one of these checks, and somehow they decided she was totally able to work. Couldn't have been more wrong, took a little while to overturn the decision.
But it's not as simple as that. One of my colleagues on my last project was registred disabled. A bloody-minded sod he was too, and he worked damned hard. The fact that he couldn't walk without two sticks didn't stop him from commuting from Hampshire to Canary Wharf every day and putting in a good day's work while in the office. Registered disabled =/= Unable to Work, and he was proof of that.
(An an aside, he was very disparaging of the benefits system and the number of benefits he was entitled to. He (said he) refused to claim them on principle.
Oli.
The complexity really must be reduced. It just isnt required and probably only serves to keep the requisite numbers on the state payroll. This was brought home to me when I helped an elderly relative to fill in eighty pages just to claim some rather ordinary entitlements. In the end the council sent round a bloke with a lap top to help us. Utter madness. I can't understand why people think that means testing is a clever idea. It guzzles money in paperwork, acts as a barrier to the needy to claim and encourages people not to save or otherwise take responsibility for themselves.
A simplification is fairly easy to do as lots of benefits are targeted at similar people. Take elderly people's free bus passes, winter fuel allowances and pensions. Why not give out one payment to the same total value? The same goes for children's free prescriptions, child benefits and family credits, why not just have one family payment?
The same is true for many other sets of benefits, they could easily be combined.
Personally I'd do away with the lot and replace them with one payment that every adult in the UK gets plus a top up based on need and how much you have paid in.
Think about it.
Student grants are effectively restored because they get the basic universal payment.
Employers don't need to deal with maternity pay (its cancelled) but women still get the universal payment plus a needs payment based on what they've actually earned.
Housewives get paid as they get the basic payment.
There is no stigma to claiming because everyone is a claimant.
Contribute nothing you just get the basic payment and nothing else ever.
Contribute a lot and you get the basic payment plus a generous payout if you are needy.
There is no benefit trap, earn more and you don't lose the basic payment and your payouts for needs increase.
Lose your job (for whatever reason)and you always get the basic payment so you have an income while you apply for a needs payment.
Reduced complexity saves money that can cut taxes and raise benefits for recipients simultaneously.
No more eighty page forms for senile old ladies (or any other needy person) to get lost in by page three.
A simplification is fairly easy to do as lots of benefits are targeted at similar people. Take elderly people's free bus passes, winter fuel allowances and pensions. Why not give out one payment to the same total value? The same goes for children's free prescriptions, child benefits and family credits, why not just have one family payment?
The same is true for many other sets of benefits, they could easily be combined.
Personally I'd do away with the lot and replace them with one payment that every adult in the UK gets plus a top up based on need and how much you have paid in.
Think about it.
Student grants are effectively restored because they get the basic universal payment.
Employers don't need to deal with maternity pay (its cancelled) but women still get the universal payment plus a needs payment based on what they've actually earned.
Housewives get paid as they get the basic payment.
There is no stigma to claiming because everyone is a claimant.
Contribute nothing you just get the basic payment and nothing else ever.
Contribute a lot and you get the basic payment plus a generous payout if you are needy.
There is no benefit trap, earn more and you don't lose the basic payment and your payouts for needs increase.
Lose your job (for whatever reason)and you always get the basic payment so you have an income while you apply for a needs payment.
Reduced complexity saves money that can cut taxes and raise benefits for recipients simultaneously.
No more eighty page forms for senile old ladies (or any other needy person) to get lost in by page three.
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