(Yet another) E36 track day project
Discussion
Not for the first time on this forum (and probably not for the last time either) another E36 comes forward and offers itself sacrificially to end its days at 7,000rpm.
What tempted you into motorsport? For me, it had to be 90s BTCC. ‘Real’ cars, seemingly just like their showroom-confined cousins, racing with barely millimetres between them. Well, it took almost 15 years for that inspiration to actually start to take a form. The trigger? – my son reaching 17 years old and flashing his driving licence in front of me. ‘Come on son, let’s go racing.’
So, with the grand total of ‘no clue whatsoever’ between us, we hit Google and started the research trawl. A couple of months later and pretty sure that we wanted a Porsche 944 as our ‘track day trainer’, I spotted a ’96 BMW 323i for sale in a supermarket car park and promptly bought it on the spot. (base, no options, model but sporting the obligatory M3 bodykit and chavvy zorst!) No test drive, very few questions but supportive nods from LadyV8 as she liked the colour and the deal was done.
It was something of a distress sale, the chap needing a more economical conveyance due to being posted to another branch of his company over an hour’s drive away. He made me insist that if I ever decided to sell it again that he’d get first refusal and promptly offered to complete a list of jobs to ensure that I took the car in the best possible condition. New front and rear discs and pads, new handbrake cable, one new tyre – prior to the sale completing – alongside plenty of other things he’d done previously, I couldn’t bear to tell him the fate awaiting his pride and joy; so I probably paid a bit too much for it too.
So, with no research in the bag for this model, I was committed to buying it before I started to delve into the forums. Firstly, it turns out that BMW stunted it from birth to the tune of 24bhp by virtue of its inlet manifold. The good news however, is that the leading expert of providing a remedy for this situation is barely 15 miles away, so guess where the car will be going first?
Then it’s decision time. Just how much do you invest? Do we just do enough to make it a useful track day toy or do we dig out the MSA book of regs and do the job completely? It’s a mid-range car, so assuming there’s a motorsport class which this fits into, the chances are there’ll be much faster cars in the same class. So would a budget-busting solution for this one really be worth it? And this is all assuming that my son and I are actually any good at competitive driving!
A ‘back of a fag packet’ budget for conversion to a well spec’d track day car (bearing in mind we’re reasonably technically incompetent so require some nice chap to fit the mechanical stuff) indicates a budget of £6k over the cost of buying the car. That doesn’t come close to making the car MSA-ready but does utilise some pretty good quality parts. But, I’m not particularly keen on pumping that much into a hobby from the outset.
I have pestered several of you on other threads for a steer on just where to pitch this car and I’m still not entirely sure. If it turns out that father & son are actually any good at this driving malarkey, would we be better off simply buying a different car at the time of switching from track days to actual racing? i.e. is it really worth max’ing the budget on this car out when the chances are it will never race?
If you think the answer to the last bit is ‘no’, what would you leave off the usual conversion shopping list to save money? Leave the stock front seats in when stripping the car? Leave standard brakes on the rear? What items are considered the minimum ‘must haves’?
Well, here endeth day one of the project. First stop will be the inlet manifold swap to an M50 model together with a big bore throttle body. Seems sensible to start by putting the car back to the position it would have been in, had it been ‘born’ a year earlier.
As for immediate items on the shopping list, I’m after a set of (appropriate) 17” alloys for track use (so the wheels fitted can be used for driving to the track and back). I’m in north Essex, so if you know of any local bargains, please drop me a line.
Here’s a photo of the old girl before she gets ‘the treatment’ and a short, walk-round video which I’ll update as each bit of work is done.
HELP!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSPITTlHHh8
What tempted you into motorsport? For me, it had to be 90s BTCC. ‘Real’ cars, seemingly just like their showroom-confined cousins, racing with barely millimetres between them. Well, it took almost 15 years for that inspiration to actually start to take a form. The trigger? – my son reaching 17 years old and flashing his driving licence in front of me. ‘Come on son, let’s go racing.’
So, with the grand total of ‘no clue whatsoever’ between us, we hit Google and started the research trawl. A couple of months later and pretty sure that we wanted a Porsche 944 as our ‘track day trainer’, I spotted a ’96 BMW 323i for sale in a supermarket car park and promptly bought it on the spot. (base, no options, model but sporting the obligatory M3 bodykit and chavvy zorst!) No test drive, very few questions but supportive nods from LadyV8 as she liked the colour and the deal was done.
It was something of a distress sale, the chap needing a more economical conveyance due to being posted to another branch of his company over an hour’s drive away. He made me insist that if I ever decided to sell it again that he’d get first refusal and promptly offered to complete a list of jobs to ensure that I took the car in the best possible condition. New front and rear discs and pads, new handbrake cable, one new tyre – prior to the sale completing – alongside plenty of other things he’d done previously, I couldn’t bear to tell him the fate awaiting his pride and joy; so I probably paid a bit too much for it too.
So, with no research in the bag for this model, I was committed to buying it before I started to delve into the forums. Firstly, it turns out that BMW stunted it from birth to the tune of 24bhp by virtue of its inlet manifold. The good news however, is that the leading expert of providing a remedy for this situation is barely 15 miles away, so guess where the car will be going first?
Then it’s decision time. Just how much do you invest? Do we just do enough to make it a useful track day toy or do we dig out the MSA book of regs and do the job completely? It’s a mid-range car, so assuming there’s a motorsport class which this fits into, the chances are there’ll be much faster cars in the same class. So would a budget-busting solution for this one really be worth it? And this is all assuming that my son and I are actually any good at competitive driving!
A ‘back of a fag packet’ budget for conversion to a well spec’d track day car (bearing in mind we’re reasonably technically incompetent so require some nice chap to fit the mechanical stuff) indicates a budget of £6k over the cost of buying the car. That doesn’t come close to making the car MSA-ready but does utilise some pretty good quality parts. But, I’m not particularly keen on pumping that much into a hobby from the outset.
I have pestered several of you on other threads for a steer on just where to pitch this car and I’m still not entirely sure. If it turns out that father & son are actually any good at this driving malarkey, would we be better off simply buying a different car at the time of switching from track days to actual racing? i.e. is it really worth max’ing the budget on this car out when the chances are it will never race?
If you think the answer to the last bit is ‘no’, what would you leave off the usual conversion shopping list to save money? Leave the stock front seats in when stripping the car? Leave standard brakes on the rear? What items are considered the minimum ‘must haves’?
Well, here endeth day one of the project. First stop will be the inlet manifold swap to an M50 model together with a big bore throttle body. Seems sensible to start by putting the car back to the position it would have been in, had it been ‘born’ a year earlier.
As for immediate items on the shopping list, I’m after a set of (appropriate) 17” alloys for track use (so the wheels fitted can be used for driving to the track and back). I’m in north Essex, so if you know of any local bargains, please drop me a line.
Here’s a photo of the old girl before she gets ‘the treatment’ and a short, walk-round video which I’ll update as each bit of work is done.
HELP!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSPITTlHHh8
Sorry I can't help with the car but just thought I would say, your son is very lucky! i am in the process of negotiations with my parents to let me buy another car for track days for my birthday. I'm not even asking them to buy it! just to let me buy the damn thing!
Cant say i will have the same budget as you guys either
Good luck with everything.
Ben
Cant say i will have the same budget as you guys either
Good luck with everything.
Ben
I hadn't even considered calipers as I've been researching and pricing up brakes. Are the OEM ones no good?
I was thinking EBC or Black Diamond grooved discs and Greenstuff pads with upgraded brake lines and fluid. Do I need new calipers too?
I was thinking EBC or Black Diamond grooved discs and Greenstuff pads with upgraded brake lines and fluid. Do I need new calipers too?
Edited by V8mate on Sunday 4th July 19:48
Go for it.
I'm just starting out, doing the same sort of stuff too. I did my ARDs test earlier in the year and plan to race a car in 2011.
The best advice I've had from people on here is to go to the race meetings and speak to people. Work out what class you want to race in.
For me, I liked the look of the mg trophy, But to start from nothing, it's a massive financial comitment. I then went to watch the MSV Trackday Trophy, It's designed as a stepping stone into racing from trackdays. So i'm starting with a mg zr to race in MSV, hopefully, then see what happens from there. If it costs too much and takes longer than expected, as long as it stays road legal you can enjoy it on trackdays, run it over to the nurburgring and enjoy it as you build it.
Good luck with it.
I'm just starting out, doing the same sort of stuff too. I did my ARDs test earlier in the year and plan to race a car in 2011.
The best advice I've had from people on here is to go to the race meetings and speak to people. Work out what class you want to race in.
For me, I liked the look of the mg trophy, But to start from nothing, it's a massive financial comitment. I then went to watch the MSV Trackday Trophy, It's designed as a stepping stone into racing from trackdays. So i'm starting with a mg zr to race in MSV, hopefully, then see what happens from there. If it costs too much and takes longer than expected, as long as it stays road legal you can enjoy it on trackdays, run it over to the nurburgring and enjoy it as you build it.
Good luck with it.
willyturbo said:
I then went to watch the MSV Trackday Trophy, It's designed as a stepping stone into racing from trackdays. So i'm starting with a mg zr to race in MSV, hopefully, then see what happens from there. If it costs too much and takes longer than expected, as long as it stays road legal you can enjoy it on trackdays, run it over to the nurburgring and enjoy it as you build it.
The MSV Trackday Trophy is quite appealing from a geographical perspective; I live mid-way between Brands and Snetterton (though I see they've just added a date a Cadwell) so as long as they don't get delusions of a national presence next year, I'm quite keen. Insofar as the costs involved gon though, I can't really see much difference between the prep costs in this competition and any other amateur racing.
My 2p...
If your intention is to go racing you're going about this the difficult way.
The car is a reasonable choice as a TD slag but the modding process should start with handling not bling alloys!
This is what I'd do :
Remove every last bit of unnecessary crap
Spax damper and spring kit
Pagid RS14 pads
Cage (half?) and harnesses + race seat
Sorted.
If you want to go racing, select the series then buy a ready built car.
Good luck!
If your intention is to go racing you're going about this the difficult way.
The car is a reasonable choice as a TD slag but the modding process should start with handling not bling alloys!
This is what I'd do :
Remove every last bit of unnecessary crap
Spax damper and spring kit
Pagid RS14 pads
Cage (half?) and harnesses + race seat
Sorted.
If you want to go racing, select the series then buy a ready built car.
Good luck!
VX Foxy said:
My 2p...
If your intention is to go racing you're going about this the difficult way.
The car is a reasonable choice as a TD slag but the modding process should start with handling not bling alloys!
This is what I'd do :
Remove every last bit of unnecessary crap
Spax damper and spring kit
Pagid RS14 pads
Cage (half?) and harnesses + race seat
Sorted.
If you want to go racing, select the series then buy a ready built car.
Good luck!
Thanks. It's not falling on deaf ears. The 'bling alloys' came with the car; I just thought that it would be best to get another set of wheels in case the tyres got damaged at a track day preventing the car from being driven home. Or doesn't that happen very often?If your intention is to go racing you're going about this the difficult way.
The car is a reasonable choice as a TD slag but the modding process should start with handling not bling alloys!
This is what I'd do :
Remove every last bit of unnecessary crap
Spax damper and spring kit
Pagid RS14 pads
Cage (half?) and harnesses + race seat
Sorted.
If you want to go racing, select the series then buy a ready built car.
Good luck!
RE the brakes - would you stick with the OEM discs?
V8mate said:
VX Foxy said:
My 2p...
If your intention is to go racing you're going about this the difficult way.
The car is a reasonable choice as a TD slag but the modding process should start with handling not bling alloys!
This is what I'd do :
Remove every last bit of unnecessary crap
Spax damper and spring kit
Pagid RS14 pads
Cage (half?) and harnesses + race seat
Sorted.
If you want to go racing, select the series then buy a ready built car.
Good luck!
Thanks. It's not falling on deaf ears. The 'bling alloys' came with the car; I just thought that it would be best to get another set of wheels in case the tyres got damaged at a track day preventing the car from being driven home. Or doesn't that happen very often?If your intention is to go racing you're going about this the difficult way.
The car is a reasonable choice as a TD slag but the modding process should start with handling not bling alloys!
This is what I'd do :
Remove every last bit of unnecessary crap
Spax damper and spring kit
Pagid RS14 pads
Cage (half?) and harnesses + race seat
Sorted.
If you want to go racing, select the series then buy a ready built car.
Good luck!
RE the brakes - would you stick with the OEM discs?
To really race this car (i.e be competitive), you need to give it too someone that will strip it 100% back to the shell, put a cage in, rework the engine, add fuel cells and all the other stuff you need. This will cost a fair bit..
I would play around with this car, track day it lots and see if you then really want to go racing, then buy a prepared car with history, there are plenty about.
Im uprating the disks/pads on mine. However I did have a go in a std one, and the brakes seemed to be quite up too the job after 8/9 laps of a airfield track,.
I think you need to decide at this point what you want to achieve, and what budget you have.. I think we can give better advice then.
Edited by joe_90 on Monday 5th July 10:47
V8mate said:
VX Foxy said:
My 2p...
If your intention is to go racing you're going about this the difficult way.
The car is a reasonable choice as a TD slag but the modding process should start with handling not bling alloys!
This is what I'd do :
Remove every last bit of unnecessary crap
Spax damper and spring kit
Pagid RS14 pads
Cage (half?) and harnesses + race seat
Sorted.
If you want to go racing, select the series then buy a ready built car.
Good luck!
Thanks. It's not falling on deaf ears. The 'bling alloys' came with the car; I just thought that it would be best to get another set of wheels in case the tyres got damaged at a track day preventing the car from being driven home. Or doesn't that happen very often?If your intention is to go racing you're going about this the difficult way.
The car is a reasonable choice as a TD slag but the modding process should start with handling not bling alloys!
This is what I'd do :
Remove every last bit of unnecessary crap
Spax damper and spring kit
Pagid RS14 pads
Cage (half?) and harnesses + race seat
Sorted.
If you want to go racing, select the series then buy a ready built car.
Good luck!
RE the brakes - would you stick with the OEM discs?
Yes - I'd stick with OEM discs. In fact I'd treat the discs as consumable and spend the money on pads. Cheap discs from ECP should be fine. Would be worth considering braided brake lines for better feel?
Edited by VX Foxy on Monday 5th July 11:10
Have you ever been on a trackday?
I'd take it as it is. Then upgrade a little as your driving improves.
It will take a while to get used to spotting the correct lines, braking points, fastest way around the track etc, its much more important to do this than gain an extra 20hp or fit a suspension kit. Spend the money on instruction in the standard car!
With that car I'd be tempted not to spend much. As with most things you are better off starting with the best "stock" car rather than upgrading a base model. So perhaps free up that bit of power, good pads discs and fluid, strip to lose weight, good tyres and maybe a second hand suspension kit.
Anything more (rollcage, big brakes, LSD, more power) and you would probably be financially better off buying something someone else has already converted.
I'd take it as it is. Then upgrade a little as your driving improves.
It will take a while to get used to spotting the correct lines, braking points, fastest way around the track etc, its much more important to do this than gain an extra 20hp or fit a suspension kit. Spend the money on instruction in the standard car!
With that car I'd be tempted not to spend much. As with most things you are better off starting with the best "stock" car rather than upgrading a base model. So perhaps free up that bit of power, good pads discs and fluid, strip to lose weight, good tyres and maybe a second hand suspension kit.
Anything more (rollcage, big brakes, LSD, more power) and you would probably be financially better off buying something someone else has already converted.
Edited by was8v on Monday 5th July 11:53
was8v said:
Have you ever been on a trackday?
I'd take it as it is. Then upgrade a little as your driving improves.
It will take a while to get used to spotting the correct lines, braking points, fastest way around the track etc, its much more important to do this than gain an extra 20hp or fit a suspension kit. Spend the money on instruction in the standard car!
With that car I'd be tempted not to spend much. As with most things you are better off starting with the best "stock" car rather than upgrading a base model. So perhaps free up that bit of power, good pads discs and fluid, strip to lose weight, good tyres and maybe a second hand suspension kit.
Anything more (rollcage, big brakes, LSD, more power) and you would probably be financially better off buying something someone else has already converted.
^Good advice I'd take it as it is. Then upgrade a little as your driving improves.
It will take a while to get used to spotting the correct lines, braking points, fastest way around the track etc, its much more important to do this than gain an extra 20hp or fit a suspension kit. Spend the money on instruction in the standard car!
With that car I'd be tempted not to spend much. As with most things you are better off starting with the best "stock" car rather than upgrading a base model. So perhaps free up that bit of power, good pads discs and fluid, strip to lose weight, good tyres and maybe a second hand suspension kit.
Anything more (rollcage, big brakes, LSD, more power) and you would probably be financially better off buying something someone else has already converted.
but I think after one day on standard (worn out) suspension you'll be fed up with driving round on the door handles!What do you mean by 'best stock car' over base model - even an M3 in road trim will be [too] soft on track (and worn out anyway).
VX Foxy said:
It might be worth selling the bling ones and replacing them with something that will give you a better/cheaper choice of tyres. Steelies would be perfect and 16" is probably the way to go.
This is a great tip. I'd always assumed that (within the bounds of reasonableness) the larger the wheel diameter the better (not sure why I thought that, but hey).Decent 17" wheels - even secondhand - seem to be £100 a corner. 16" are less than £100 for a whole set
Just to double check - am I right in thinking that non-M car wheels are fully interchangeable, i.e. E36/E46 etc? Do 16" wheels from 5-series cars have the same stud pattern too?
This is a build (start) of a track e36..
Also. I got a set of refurbished BBS splitrims with tyres for 300. The trick is to make offers, and just be prepared to wait a while for ebay..
You need to be carful of offsets, but the m2 wheels with go on the e36 no worries, and they are staggered if you want that.. I think sniff has some staggered BBS splits.
Also. I got a set of refurbished BBS splitrims with tyres for 300. The trick is to make offers, and just be prepared to wait a while for ebay..
You need to be carful of offsets, but the m2 wheels with go on the e36 no worries, and they are staggered if you want that.. I think sniff has some staggered BBS splits.
Edited by joe_90 on Monday 5th July 14:57
Don't bother with staggered (you can't then swap them front to back to even wear), and stick to 17". You can pick up a cheap set of 17" pretty easily usually - my last set were off an E34 and were £100 with tyres.
There's a more ready supply of 17" track rubber around than there is 16".
There's a more ready supply of 17" track rubber around than there is 16".
Whilst on the subject of wheels, what size tyres should I fit on my own 323 track toy? I'm in a similar position to the OP having just bought the car and got a set of 15s from a local scrapper (£40). My car had a mixture of wheels and tyres so starting again!
Mine is staying standard until bits need replacing - won't be long though as new shocks look to be in order and possibly a gearbox (same again or should I look to a different model?).
Today was spent ripping out the interior - great fun. Downside is that when you spend a day working on the car you create a very long list of other jobs that need doing!
Mine is staying standard until bits need replacing - won't be long though as new shocks look to be in order and possibly a gearbox (same again or should I look to a different model?).
Today was spent ripping out the interior - great fun. Downside is that when you spend a day working on the car you create a very long list of other jobs that need doing!
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