S3 broken - I could cry...
Discussion
So after an excellent day at Goodwood on Friday in my S3 I ordered a couple of new parts for my aging immobiliser. It's a Meta 36T and the socket was starting to fail that the touch key would plug in to, and I also wanted to a have a spare touch key one in case I ever lose the only one I have.
So off I went yesterday and fitted the new socket - 5 minute job as it's just a small lead that plugs into the immobiliser (which I found in a 'hidden' place ;0) - then reprogrammed the immob. so it accepted the new 'blank' touch key.
I tested both the new and 'old' touch key and all was great - held in the touch keys for 5 seconds each, then turned the ignition key and the S3 fired up into life. Away I walked pleased with a job well done.
Strange thing I notice was that my petrol reading was very low - i'd done about 150 miles on a full tank and now it was showing nearly into the red.....weird?!...
So this morning I go to fire up the S3 and 'deimmobilise' it and turn the key and the starter fires......and fires.....and fires.....but the engine never catches. Hmm....I try again, and again, and still nothing. Then I notice the petrol gauge is showing practically empty.
I immediately suspect a tank leak but the ground beneath the car shows no signs of a leak (and we did sit in traffic for 5 hours on Friday) so I put the low fuel down to just poor MPG as a result of sitting still in lots of hot traffic, then blitzing it when I could!
Here's the problem....
This afternoon I filled the tank with 5ltrs of fresh petrol from one of those plastic tanks you get from the petrol station. I try firing it up again.....and again and the starter turns and the engine never fires into life.
I've spent 3 hours outside in the car today and still no joy.
I've done the following:
Removed the glovebox and cowlings around the steering wheel and checked that all visible bullet/spade/block connectors are connected - they seem to be and look undisturbed
Tested that the immob does indeed 'work' and deactivate and allows the starter/ignition circuit to fire (tested by turning the key) by pushing in the touch key for 5 seconds, then turning the ignition key. As you'd expect only then does the starter fire and all the main circuits on the car come to life (lights, blowers, radio etc.)
So I'm (once again) stuck and hunting for ideas and fixes!
A few thoughts....
I was really careful when fitting the 'new' touch key socket - it's a really simple fit and I can't imagine it's broken anything. Plus it 'works' - with either of my 2 touch keys I can successfully de-immobilise the M36T which then lets me turn over the starter motor when the ignition key is turned.
I've checked all wiring I can see (visually) and it 'seems' OK.
I've read the fault finding in 'The Bible' and Steve mentions a diode with 2 spade connectors that can cause the fuel pump to stop working if dislodged - I found it and checked it was seated ok and all seems well.
What I did notice however was that when the car was demobilised and the key turned to the pre-starter motor phase the car was totally silent. Now it may just be me but i'm sure there was a whine beforehand - and if i'm right I'm guessing this would be the fuel pump turning?
Now there is no sound and so i'm guessing that either my fuel pump is suddenly (coincidentally!) broken as a result of either running low on fuel and sucking some rubbish in, or that the immob is working on 2 circuits - 1 for the fuel pump and one for the ignition - and for some reason the fuel pump circuit isn't being reactivated by the immob.
Any ideas?
I'd really like to find a way of testing if the circuit for the fuel pump is coming 'live' when the immob is deactivated - any ideas how I can do this?
Having no 'home start' breakdown cover i'm beginning to wonder how on earth i'm going to get the S3 to a garage if I can't work this one out!
As I said - I could cry, it seems like one thing after another at the moment - especially having just had the high idle (as the result of its service!) fixed!!
Cheers all,
Anders
So off I went yesterday and fitted the new socket - 5 minute job as it's just a small lead that plugs into the immobiliser (which I found in a 'hidden' place ;0) - then reprogrammed the immob. so it accepted the new 'blank' touch key.
I tested both the new and 'old' touch key and all was great - held in the touch keys for 5 seconds each, then turned the ignition key and the S3 fired up into life. Away I walked pleased with a job well done.
Strange thing I notice was that my petrol reading was very low - i'd done about 150 miles on a full tank and now it was showing nearly into the red.....weird?!...
So this morning I go to fire up the S3 and 'deimmobilise' it and turn the key and the starter fires......and fires.....and fires.....but the engine never catches. Hmm....I try again, and again, and still nothing. Then I notice the petrol gauge is showing practically empty.
I immediately suspect a tank leak but the ground beneath the car shows no signs of a leak (and we did sit in traffic for 5 hours on Friday) so I put the low fuel down to just poor MPG as a result of sitting still in lots of hot traffic, then blitzing it when I could!
Here's the problem....
This afternoon I filled the tank with 5ltrs of fresh petrol from one of those plastic tanks you get from the petrol station. I try firing it up again.....and again and the starter turns and the engine never fires into life.
I've spent 3 hours outside in the car today and still no joy.
I've done the following:
Removed the glovebox and cowlings around the steering wheel and checked that all visible bullet/spade/block connectors are connected - they seem to be and look undisturbed
Tested that the immob does indeed 'work' and deactivate and allows the starter/ignition circuit to fire (tested by turning the key) by pushing in the touch key for 5 seconds, then turning the ignition key. As you'd expect only then does the starter fire and all the main circuits on the car come to life (lights, blowers, radio etc.)
So I'm (once again) stuck and hunting for ideas and fixes!
A few thoughts....
I was really careful when fitting the 'new' touch key socket - it's a really simple fit and I can't imagine it's broken anything. Plus it 'works' - with either of my 2 touch keys I can successfully de-immobilise the M36T which then lets me turn over the starter motor when the ignition key is turned.
I've checked all wiring I can see (visually) and it 'seems' OK.
I've read the fault finding in 'The Bible' and Steve mentions a diode with 2 spade connectors that can cause the fuel pump to stop working if dislodged - I found it and checked it was seated ok and all seems well.
What I did notice however was that when the car was demobilised and the key turned to the pre-starter motor phase the car was totally silent. Now it may just be me but i'm sure there was a whine beforehand - and if i'm right I'm guessing this would be the fuel pump turning?
Now there is no sound and so i'm guessing that either my fuel pump is suddenly (coincidentally!) broken as a result of either running low on fuel and sucking some rubbish in, or that the immob is working on 2 circuits - 1 for the fuel pump and one for the ignition - and for some reason the fuel pump circuit isn't being reactivated by the immob.
Any ideas?
I'd really like to find a way of testing if the circuit for the fuel pump is coming 'live' when the immob is deactivated - any ideas how I can do this?
Having no 'home start' breakdown cover i'm beginning to wonder how on earth i'm going to get the S3 to a garage if I can't work this one out!
As I said - I could cry, it seems like one thing after another at the moment - especially having just had the high idle (as the result of its service!) fixed!!
Cheers all,
Anders
In the steering column there is a connector with big wires to it - one half is black the other yellow - pull the 2 connectors apart and look inside - you'll probably find it is melted.
If it is that connector playing up you might find if you wiggle it that things improve (and you have more petrol!) - BUT if the engine is now flooded even if you fix the problem it may not start as the plugs will be wet with petrol.
When you are turning the engine over hold the accelerator to the floor to get as much air through as possible
You may have to remove the plugs to dry them out - but have a look at the connector first and see where that takes us.
If it is that connector playing up you might find if you wiggle it that things improve (and you have more petrol!) - BUT if the engine is now flooded even if you fix the problem it may not start as the plugs will be wet with petrol.
When you are turning the engine over hold the accelerator to the floor to get as much air through as possible
You may have to remove the plugs to dry them out - but have a look at the connector first and see where that takes us.
Hiya
I've just taken a look and I can't see any connector like the one you describe.
Here's a photo
I think there's been a lot of rewiring done my car at some point as It all looks like it's full of connectors and insulation tape....
Out of interest how does the connecter under the steering column affect petrol consumption etc?
Wouldn't the fuel pump make some kind of sound if the circuit was working?
A
I've just taken a look and I can't see any connector like the one you describe.
Here's a photo
I think there's been a lot of rewiring done my car at some point as It all looks like it's full of connectors and insulation tape....
Out of interest how does the connecter under the steering column affect petrol consumption etc?
Wouldn't the fuel pump make some kind of sound if the circuit was working?
A
Follow the big fat red wire off the back of the ignition switch - that would have gone to the connector - I guess its been cut out and replaced?
Also don't discount fuel pump failure - stranger things have happened!
If you need something to test for voltage a digital multimeter will cost about £8 from somewhere like Maplin.
Also don't discount fuel pump failure - stranger things have happened!
If you need something to test for voltage a digital multimeter will cost about £8 from somewhere like Maplin.
Edited by Barkychoc on Sunday 4th July 20:29
OK will do thanks!
Just been out there and checked a few more things - and I'm thinking the immobiliser is a red herring...
When I leave the immob armed and turn the key in the ignition - nothing happens (which is right!)
When I deactivate the immob and turn the key to the pre-starter motor phase the fuel pump relay clicks. So i'm pretty such from that that the immob is working as expected and that the fault is to do with either the feed to the fuel pump or the pump itself as you say.
Is removing a plug and seeing if it's wet the best way to see if the pump's actually pumping (as I can't hear it prime or anything on the pre-starter motor phase of the turn of my ignition key)?
A
Just been out there and checked a few more things - and I'm thinking the immobiliser is a red herring...
When I leave the immob armed and turn the key in the ignition - nothing happens (which is right!)
When I deactivate the immob and turn the key to the pre-starter motor phase the fuel pump relay clicks. So i'm pretty such from that that the immob is working as expected and that the fault is to do with either the feed to the fuel pump or the pump itself as you say.
Is removing a plug and seeing if it's wet the best way to see if the pump's actually pumping (as I can't hear it prime or anything on the pre-starter motor phase of the turn of my ignition key)?
A
When the ignition is turned the whine you hear briefly is the fuel pump pressurising the fuel system including the fuel rail. On the near side of the fuel rail is the Schrader valve, see pic below pointed out by arrow.
Its just like a tyre valve, remove the cover and depress the 'stalk' in the centre
If the fuel rail is correctly pressurised then fuel will squirt everywhere so cover the valve with a rag to avoid soaking he engine bay.
HTH
Its just like a tyre valve, remove the cover and depress the 'stalk' in the centre
If the fuel rail is correctly pressurised then fuel will squirt everywhere so cover the valve with a rag to avoid soaking he engine bay.
HTH
Edited by Gerald-TVR on Sunday 4th July 21:39
Thanks for that tip - I spotted that valve today and wondered what it did while I was gazing totally non-plussed into the engine bay. If nothing else i'm certainly learning a tonne of stuff about engines at the moment! 
It's getting dark now so i'll try this out tomorrow, but i'm getting total silence (other than the fuel pump relay clicking once) when I turn the key to the 'prime' position (no noise at all from the fuel pump), and then when I turn they key all the way I get the normal starter motor turning over noise....so i'm guessing it's got to be related to the fuel pump in some way whether faulty or the immobiliser is doing something seriously dodgy despite deimmobilising the starter circuit.
Can anyone confirm whether the Meta M36T Immobiliser is likely to cut BOTH starter motor AND fuel pump circuits?
I'm guess that if I test the 2 main switched leads of the fuel pump relay I should see ~12v if all is well as this would suggest a full circuit to the fuel pump?
I don't have the 'normal' yellow connector and will take Barkychoc's advice and look for what's at the end of the 'new' spade connecters tomorrow evening too.
I'm really determined to sort this one out without forking out yet more cash to a garage to sort!
A
It's getting dark now so i'll try this out tomorrow, but i'm getting total silence (other than the fuel pump relay clicking once) when I turn the key to the 'prime' position (no noise at all from the fuel pump), and then when I turn they key all the way I get the normal starter motor turning over noise....so i'm guessing it's got to be related to the fuel pump in some way whether faulty or the immobiliser is doing something seriously dodgy despite deimmobilising the starter circuit.
Can anyone confirm whether the Meta M36T Immobiliser is likely to cut BOTH starter motor AND fuel pump circuits?
I'm guess that if I test the 2 main switched leads of the fuel pump relay I should see ~12v if all is well as this would suggest a full circuit to the fuel pump?
I don't have the 'normal' yellow connector and will take Barkychoc's advice and look for what's at the end of the 'new' spade connecters tomorrow evening too.
I'm really determined to sort this one out without forking out yet more cash to a garage to sort!
A
Blimey not having the rev counter connected will stop the car starting?! Who designed these things!!?
Been looking over the Bible's wiring diagram and I think i've got something wrong - the relay I hear clicking when I turn the key has a large diode on 2 spades coming from the same housing. I assumed this was the fuel pump relay - but the wiring diagram in the Bible suggests this is for the Fuel Injectors not the Fuel Pump.
Can anyone tell me what I should hear clicking in order to get the fuel pump primed as I think i'm only hearing a single relay at the moment?
Problem with this is that it sets me back to wondering if i've got an immobiliser issue all over again.
Argh
Been looking over the Bible's wiring diagram and I think i've got something wrong - the relay I hear clicking when I turn the key has a large diode on 2 spades coming from the same housing. I assumed this was the fuel pump relay - but the wiring diagram in the Bible suggests this is for the Fuel Injectors not the Fuel Pump.
Can anyone tell me what I should hear clicking in order to get the fuel pump primed as I think i'm only hearing a single relay at the moment?
Problem with this is that it sets me back to wondering if i've got an immobiliser issue all over again.
Argh
check fuel pump relay itself or this topic :
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Br, Han
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Br, Han
Just for clarity - when you turn the key to ignition on (ie. prior to actually turning the engine on the starter with immobiliser now off) you should hear the fuel pump run up and then stop so if that isn't happening there is a problem either with the connection to the pump (wiring/immobiliser?) or the pump isn't working. Advice re checking those is above - good luck with it.
Jim
Jim
Yes to confirm when I turn the key the fuel pump stays silent. I've confirmed today the relay that I do hear clicking is for the Fuel Injectors, so i'm now going to hunt down the Fuel Pump relay (i'm told it's Yello) and try to short it to see if the live feed to the pump is working if I bypass the relay switches.
I think i've either toasted or disturbed the immobiliser so hope to see tonight whether or not the relay is working.....!
I think i've either toasted or disturbed the immobiliser so hope to see tonight whether or not the relay is working.....!
Bit of an update:
Tonight, armed with a new multimeter, I found out that the fuel pump relay isn't working properly...
When I remove it and test the 4 sockets that the relay plugs into and short out 2 of the 4 pins (30 and 84) the fuel pump whirrs into life.
Infact the 2 sockets show a constant 12v - good start!
Next up I try the 2 control pins and find out that when 'immobilised' they output nothing, however when disarmed they put out only 0.6v when the key is turned to any position.
So my logic is that something (immobiliser circuit?) is not allowing enough voltage/current to go through the pins to properly close the relay's contacts and allow the pump to start.
Next thing I tried - I disarmed the car, shorted out the relay for the fuel pump (so it started whirring) and tried starting the car - again it refused. The starter turned over and over but even with the shorted out fuel pump whirring away it refuses to start.
I also dropped the steering column and checked all the wiring - and it's a real mess - however nothing obviously looks shorted, loose or burnt out.
Spoke to an alarm company today and they suggested the immobiliser has 2 small relays in it - one to control the fuel pump relay, and the other to control the ignition circuit. They suggested the fuel pump relay control relay was maybe stuck and broken. Bit of a coincidence no?
So I guess i'm a little further down the road (no pun intended!) trying to work out what the problem is - fuel pump is whirring when I short out the relay, but I'm guessing not enough power is getting to the other 2 pins when the immobiliser is deactivated.
Any ideas what to do next - I honestly can't follow the cables in and out of the immob as they're so disguised and double back on themselves and change colour it's impossible!?
Tonight, armed with a new multimeter, I found out that the fuel pump relay isn't working properly...
When I remove it and test the 4 sockets that the relay plugs into and short out 2 of the 4 pins (30 and 84) the fuel pump whirrs into life.
Infact the 2 sockets show a constant 12v - good start!
Next up I try the 2 control pins and find out that when 'immobilised' they output nothing, however when disarmed they put out only 0.6v when the key is turned to any position.
So my logic is that something (immobiliser circuit?) is not allowing enough voltage/current to go through the pins to properly close the relay's contacts and allow the pump to start.
Next thing I tried - I disarmed the car, shorted out the relay for the fuel pump (so it started whirring) and tried starting the car - again it refused. The starter turned over and over but even with the shorted out fuel pump whirring away it refuses to start.
I also dropped the steering column and checked all the wiring - and it's a real mess - however nothing obviously looks shorted, loose or burnt out.
Spoke to an alarm company today and they suggested the immobiliser has 2 small relays in it - one to control the fuel pump relay, and the other to control the ignition circuit. They suggested the fuel pump relay control relay was maybe stuck and broken. Bit of a coincidence no?
So I guess i'm a little further down the road (no pun intended!) trying to work out what the problem is - fuel pump is whirring when I short out the relay, but I'm guessing not enough power is getting to the other 2 pins when the immobiliser is deactivated.
Any ideas what to do next - I honestly can't follow the cables in and out of the immob as they're so disguised and double back on themselves and change colour it's impossible!?
It's alive!!
I contacted the much-recommended Carl at http://www.tvruk.tv who came over specially to my stranded car (over a hundred miles away!) and after an hour or two's tinkering my S now starts.
It looks like there were 2 simultaneous faults:
So I just need to get a new fuel pump relay and I should be sorted.
I've approached Norman to see if he has a spare, but if not (from having browsed the threads) I'm guessing any of these will do?
https://www.simpsonsupplies.co.uk/Relays/Fuel_Inje...
https://www.simpsonsupplies.co.uk/Relays/Fuel_Inje...
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=135
Cheers for all your help and suggestions!
A
I contacted the much-recommended Carl at http://www.tvruk.tv who came over specially to my stranded car (over a hundred miles away!) and after an hour or two's tinkering my S now starts.
It looks like there were 2 simultaneous faults:
- Immobiliser
- Fuel Pump Relay
So I just need to get a new fuel pump relay and I should be sorted.
I've approached Norman to see if he has a spare, but if not (from having browsed the threads) I'm guessing any of these will do?
https://www.simpsonsupplies.co.uk/Relays/Fuel_Inje...
https://www.simpsonsupplies.co.uk/Relays/Fuel_Inje...
http://www.efi-parts.co.uk/index.php?productID=135
Cheers for all your help and suggestions!
A
ebay :
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fuel-Pump-Relay-Lucas-FDB-50...
According Alternative partslist it should be : Lucas FDB502
So the one from Simpson supplies is OK as well
Br, Han
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Fuel-Pump-Relay-Lucas-FDB-50...
According Alternative partslist it should be : Lucas FDB502
So the one from Simpson supplies is OK as well
Br, Han
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