How long before electric vehicles take off??
Discussion
I'm sure there has been a lot of discussion around this in the past, but I can't find a recent one so here we go again...
The G-Wiz etc are heaps of junk as far as I can tell, they look like they's quickly become a flattened coke can in any impact - I would never consider driving a family around in one of those, although I see this in London regularly!!
There's clearly a lot of development going on worldwide with regards to battery life etc and everyone from Honda - Ford - Tesla are making inroads and better EV's seem to be on the horizon. Companies like Tanfield seem to be making inroads on the technology front. EV technology now being used by worldwide delivery companies in cities as well supermarket delivery fleets etc.
If a decent infrastructure of charging points (as planned by some in the public/private sector) is rolled out, how long do the PH masses think it'll be before EV's become common place... or is the infrastructure itself going to be a wasted investment with little hope of the private sector companies recouping their investment on it for decades?
The government would have us believe it's only a matter of time and are (currently) offering grants for EV's to purchasers, tax benefits etc. Anyone buy into this or is this a much longer term thing?
The G-Wiz etc are heaps of junk as far as I can tell, they look like they's quickly become a flattened coke can in any impact - I would never consider driving a family around in one of those, although I see this in London regularly!!
There's clearly a lot of development going on worldwide with regards to battery life etc and everyone from Honda - Ford - Tesla are making inroads and better EV's seem to be on the horizon. Companies like Tanfield seem to be making inroads on the technology front. EV technology now being used by worldwide delivery companies in cities as well supermarket delivery fleets etc.
If a decent infrastructure of charging points (as planned by some in the public/private sector) is rolled out, how long do the PH masses think it'll be before EV's become common place... or is the infrastructure itself going to be a wasted investment with little hope of the private sector companies recouping their investment on it for decades?
The government would have us believe it's only a matter of time and are (currently) offering grants for EV's to purchasers, tax benefits etc. Anyone buy into this or is this a much longer term thing?
Batteries will never take off because they take too long to charge, weigh too much, and don't last long enough to give the range people expect.
The future IS electric but using fuel cells, or some other on-board generator that weighs less than batteries, lasts at least as long as batteries but crucially can be refueled in "minutes" like a current car can.
The future IS electric but using fuel cells, or some other on-board generator that weighs less than batteries, lasts at least as long as batteries but crucially can be refueled in "minutes" like a current car can.
Mars said:
Batteries will never take off because they take too long to charge, weigh too much, and don't last long enough to give the range people expect.
The future IS electric but using fuel cells, or some other on-board generator that weighs less than batteries, lasts at least as long as batteries but crucially can be refueled in "minutes" like a current car can.
True, should've stated that I (wrongly) included fuel cells under my definition of batteries. The future IS electric but using fuel cells, or some other on-board generator that weighs less than batteries, lasts at least as long as batteries but crucially can be refueled in "minutes" like a current car can.
About as long as it takes for people to realise that this is coming next
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/7874065/E...
You get nowt for nowt in this country...
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/7874065/E...
You get nowt for nowt in this country...
Mars said:
The future IS electric but using fuel cells, or some other on-board generator that weighs less than batteries, lasts at least as long as batteries but crucially can be refueled in "minutes" like a current car can.
There are several new battery technologies being developed at the moment which potentially offer up to 10 or 15 times the energy density of lithium chemistry. Potentially you could have an electric vehicle with 1000 miles of range that weighs less than a conventional car.There is also existing technology that can accept charge virtually as fast as you can supply it, with the only limitation being charging infrastructure. Roadside fast charge stations that only require 5 minute fill ups are entirely possible, it's just the chicken and egg problem.
Range extender engines are the stop gap between what we have now and what will hopefully be possible in the future, but there is a very high chance that fuel cells will be rendered redundant by battery technology.
Fuel cells and hydrogen in general simply has too many problems to overcome. Producing the fuel requires vast amounts of energy, the fuel itself has very low energy density and is difficult to store, and most importantly a fuel cell vehicle still relies on battery technology to work, so in effect it is promoting the development of its own major rival.
Great leap forwards may happen and things may change, but at the moment battery tech looks to be taking an early and significant lead.
I think that electric final drive will become very common fairly quickly. Virtually every car manufacturer has a "range extended hybrid" on the drawing boards. This is essentially an electric car with a generator. That generator could be anything - a normal piston engine, a rotary, a turbine... maybe one day a fuel cell (long story, not worth going into here).
This type of car will be the stop-gap between IC cars and true all-electric vehicles. These will get common once battery tech has reached v3.0. Fast-charging and cheap. It's only a matter of time before someone cracks that and then you won't want fuel cells anyway.
This type of car will be the stop-gap between IC cars and true all-electric vehicles. These will get common once battery tech has reached v3.0. Fast-charging and cheap. It's only a matter of time before someone cracks that and then you won't want fuel cells anyway.
Edited by Mr Gear on Tuesday 6th July 12:47
In all seriousness.....
I think as most have said, for it to be viable, a hugh amount of money needs to be spent on a decent infrastructure of charging points - And someone first obviously needs to work out how the end user will pay for the power consumed etc, how much fitting it will cost, and how that cost will be recovered
Look at a slightly different form of green technology - The Hydrogen Honda.
It work's just like your regular day to day car, in that you fill it up, drive until the tank is empty, and then refill it (The range is similar to that of a PEV)
All sounds good so far...
Except it's only available in California, because it's the only place that has sufficient hydrogen pumps at filling stations - All paid for by Hinda and the state of California
I think as most have said, for it to be viable, a hugh amount of money needs to be spent on a decent infrastructure of charging points - And someone first obviously needs to work out how the end user will pay for the power consumed etc, how much fitting it will cost, and how that cost will be recovered
Look at a slightly different form of green technology - The Hydrogen Honda.
It work's just like your regular day to day car, in that you fill it up, drive until the tank is empty, and then refill it (The range is similar to that of a PEV)
All sounds good so far...
Except it's only available in California, because it's the only place that has sufficient hydrogen pumps at filling stations - All paid for by Hinda and the state of California
Edited by Superhoop on Tuesday 6th July 12:50
gilla said:
That's partly the reason I asked!! There are a couple of companies planning a rollout to start shortly, a 10 year plan to get a charging point in every street... not sure how viable the investment will be nor how much funding they already have behind it.
The problem is that at the moment, the technology is too young. There's a high chance that all of these charging points will be rendered out of date for future battery technology as it'd almost be like filling up an oil tanker with a hose the size of a drinking straw.Ideally, range extender vehicles with fast charging capability will become more prevelant which will encourage the development of fast charging infrastructure AND help to fund new battery technology
The Crack Fox said:
I posted something about this recently. They sold just 55 EVs in the UK last year. The fact that a car is electric is not enough to make folks buy em, there must be real-world, tangible performance and financial benefits before anyone will even consider one. There are a hundred and one dead EV projects from companies big and small who have failed to recognise this. Personally, I'm tired of the amount of press they get, I DON'T WANT ONE !
The genius of capitalism is that you'll never be forced to have one. You can buy what you want. Do you have a link to where that figure of 55 EV sales came from? I'm interested to see the source, and surprised that 3% of the entire UK EV sales for 2009 are in my road of 100 houses.Edited by Mr Gear on Tuesday 6th July 13:06
The Hitman said:
Alternative fuel will became big once the oil companies decide that oil isn't economical to drill. Then I suspect they'll "discover" an economical wy to get hydrogen out of water. Profiteering b
ds!
You can't do this with any lower energy than you get from combining the two, otherwise it would defy the laws of physics.ds!The crux of it is, it requires a large amount of electricity. The efficiency converting electricity + water into hydrogen and oxygen and vice versa might improve in the future, but it's still a round trip that doesn't have to be done in a battery powered vehicle.
Batteries aren't 100% efficient, but fuel cells have got a hell of a way to catch up, and they aren't exactly sprightly in terms of range and weight compared to a battery either.
The Wookie said:
The Hitman said:
Alternative fuel will became big once the oil companies decide that oil isn't economical to drill. Then I suspect they'll "discover" an economical wy to get hydrogen out of water. Profiteering bds!
You can't do this with any lower energy than you get from combining the two, otherwise it would defy the laws of physics.ds!The crux of it is, it requires a large amount of electricity. The efficiency converting electricity + water into hydrogen and oxygen and vice versa might improve in the future, but it's still a round trip that doesn't have to be done in a battery powered vehicle.
Batteries aren't 100% efficient, but fuel cells have got a hell of a way to catch up, and they aren't exactly sprightly in terms of range and weight compared to a battery either.
I echo the sentiments of not wanting one, I'm looking at it from a business perspective. I personally think there's a lot of hype, technology is too young, more developments are needed etc. But interested in the thoughts of the masses whilst sifting through some information that has landed on my desk for appraisal, it definately involves trying to read between the lines and define a likely outcome from the BS 
I'm also wondering why a nationwide roll out of charging stations would be on the cards already. Would anybody really go into such a costly program without considering all elements and making it futureproof... is that even possible when they don't necessarily know what the future holds? Will it really happen or is it an excuse to blag funding
? Government figures saying there will be 1.7 million electric vehicles on UK roads by 2020!! If only 55 (where did that come from?) were sold last year where do they get this pile of tripe? (don't answer that - I realise it's the same place as they get the rest of it!!)
It reminds me in some ways of the roll out in (I think) California a long time ago that ended in all the electric vehicles being withdrawn and the charging stations becoming useless in a very short period of time - there were some conspiracy theories about that I believe. There was a documentary about it last year IIRC- anybody remember the name of it?
I'm also wondering why a nationwide roll out of charging stations would be on the cards already. Would anybody really go into such a costly program without considering all elements and making it futureproof... is that even possible when they don't necessarily know what the future holds? Will it really happen or is it an excuse to blag funding
? Government figures saying there will be 1.7 million electric vehicles on UK roads by 2020!! If only 55 (where did that come from?) were sold last year where do they get this pile of tripe? (don't answer that - I realise it's the same place as they get the rest of it!!)It reminds me in some ways of the roll out in (I think) California a long time ago that ended in all the electric vehicles being withdrawn and the charging stations becoming useless in a very short period of time - there were some conspiracy theories about that I believe. There was a documentary about it last year IIRC- anybody remember the name of it?
Edited by gilla on Tuesday 6th July 13:15
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