F430 understeer .... geo / springs / spacers
Discussion
Hi all,
I posted a similar message on another Ferrari forum but got little technical help.
My 430 spider understeers like a dog. I am told that UK spec cars have been setup like US models, where owners are more concerned about speed humps and Ferrari more concerned about US litigation with respect to oversteer and the ability of the average driver.
Now the solution is to have the geo correctly setup on the car to how it should really handle, adjusting the tow, camber, rake and suspension height. I have found a number of specialists who can do this for me. However, my concern is that in order to achieve the results that I want, the car really needs to be lowered. In doing this there is increased chance that the car will be grounded at high speed over bumpy roads under breaking or large compressions in the road surface. Has anyone else suffered from these problems ? Do I really need to fit stiffer springs to compensate for the lowered ride height ?
Lastly, spacers .... standard wheels don't really fill the wheel arches, and when lowering the car, this only further highlights this issue. Spacers can aesthetically move the track out but add unsprung weight to the car. Has anyone have experience with using these ?
Thanks all.
P.S. Yes, please dont tell me to buy a 16M!
I posted a similar message on another Ferrari forum but got little technical help.
My 430 spider understeers like a dog. I am told that UK spec cars have been setup like US models, where owners are more concerned about speed humps and Ferrari more concerned about US litigation with respect to oversteer and the ability of the average driver.
Now the solution is to have the geo correctly setup on the car to how it should really handle, adjusting the tow, camber, rake and suspension height. I have found a number of specialists who can do this for me. However, my concern is that in order to achieve the results that I want, the car really needs to be lowered. In doing this there is increased chance that the car will be grounded at high speed over bumpy roads under breaking or large compressions in the road surface. Has anyone else suffered from these problems ? Do I really need to fit stiffer springs to compensate for the lowered ride height ?
Lastly, spacers .... standard wheels don't really fill the wheel arches, and when lowering the car, this only further highlights this issue. Spacers can aesthetically move the track out but add unsprung weight to the car. Has anyone have experience with using these ?
Thanks all.
P.S. Yes, please dont tell me to buy a 16M!
i dont want to sound curt, or dismissive, i know how hard it can be to get technical feedback on modern ferraris from other owners but reading your post doesnt fill me with much confidence and i suspect this may be the reason for the lack of much in the way of answers. you seem to just have a ton of items thrown around there without presenting any suggestion that you really understand how these various items interact or whats going on. i apologise if this is just the way the post is written. i suspect this may have put people off in other places from responding too however, its very much like a post one would expect to see in the fast and furious forum.
ive seen many people take info from the internet and then apply it to their cars without rationalising and processing what they are being told with less than positive results, including a burning ferrari.
i dont want to sound patronising either but ive no idea what your car experience is or indeed your ability to verbalise and feedback on what you feel from the car and what you recognise as you drive.
can i ask if you actually feel it understeer? have you tried adjusting your driving to tighten this up? how did you feel it respond to this? in what sort of situation do you feel the understeer? what are your tyre pressures? do you check them regularly? have you tried varying them to wind out the understeer?
this sort of info really helps others help you but also gives those with ideas confidence to share them with you. the last thing anyone wants to do is share a whole heap of track based knowledge to someone who is going to then just apply it literaly to their car and then spin out on the first day out.
having something happen in situation X may require a different solution to having the same thing happen in situation Y. i can think of several situations where the understeer in the 430 comes out and each is a manifestation of a different cause.
i agree that the f430 has understeer tendencies though, as with most cars manufacturers set them up this way as its far safer than having them tail happy. pushing wide and off the side of the road is always better than spinning into traffic sideways. its also a situation most drivers are familiar with, not all have alot of rear wheel drive experience and so most are used to dealing with understeer rather than oversteer. that being said, while it can certainly suffer from this i didnt find it presented itself readily in regular driving. it more lacked a little precisions from the front.
the 430 and 360 are complicated also, mainly as theres so much going on and interacting to give issues. to just then start adjusting things can often switch one issue for another, or as so often seems to be the case, keep the same problem but give it another source.
all that being said, the best solution to dial out the understeer characteristics is to firm up the rear anti roll bar (or soften the front). since theres no simple front solution with the bars being non adjustable, changing out the rear bar to that from the scuderia is the simplest and most effective option as it firms up the rear a good amount. it will make the car far more pointy and you will really feel it weight up the outside tyre very quickly when cornering where before this would be applied much more progressively. this can be unsettling if you arent used to it but doing this will effectively deal with general driving understeer far more than messing about with camber, toe and spacers etc will.
ive seen many people take info from the internet and then apply it to their cars without rationalising and processing what they are being told with less than positive results, including a burning ferrari.
i dont want to sound patronising either but ive no idea what your car experience is or indeed your ability to verbalise and feedback on what you feel from the car and what you recognise as you drive.
can i ask if you actually feel it understeer? have you tried adjusting your driving to tighten this up? how did you feel it respond to this? in what sort of situation do you feel the understeer? what are your tyre pressures? do you check them regularly? have you tried varying them to wind out the understeer?
this sort of info really helps others help you but also gives those with ideas confidence to share them with you. the last thing anyone wants to do is share a whole heap of track based knowledge to someone who is going to then just apply it literaly to their car and then spin out on the first day out.
having something happen in situation X may require a different solution to having the same thing happen in situation Y. i can think of several situations where the understeer in the 430 comes out and each is a manifestation of a different cause.
i agree that the f430 has understeer tendencies though, as with most cars manufacturers set them up this way as its far safer than having them tail happy. pushing wide and off the side of the road is always better than spinning into traffic sideways. its also a situation most drivers are familiar with, not all have alot of rear wheel drive experience and so most are used to dealing with understeer rather than oversteer. that being said, while it can certainly suffer from this i didnt find it presented itself readily in regular driving. it more lacked a little precisions from the front.
the 430 and 360 are complicated also, mainly as theres so much going on and interacting to give issues. to just then start adjusting things can often switch one issue for another, or as so often seems to be the case, keep the same problem but give it another source.
all that being said, the best solution to dial out the understeer characteristics is to firm up the rear anti roll bar (or soften the front). since theres no simple front solution with the bars being non adjustable, changing out the rear bar to that from the scuderia is the simplest and most effective option as it firms up the rear a good amount. it will make the car far more pointy and you will really feel it weight up the outside tyre very quickly when cornering where before this would be applied much more progressively. this can be unsettling if you arent used to it but doing this will effectively deal with general driving understeer far more than messing about with camber, toe and spacers etc will.
Edited by fioran0 on Wednesday 7th July 21:56
I don't want to sound curt, or dismissive either, but have you ever driven a F430 Spider?
I have a lot of track day experience, and I know what understeer is and what it feels like. The issue of understeer on this car is not with my driving, nor is this simple issue of tyre pressures. Anyone who has driven a F430 Spider around a track will know that the car is heavily setup for understeer and it is a deeply unsatisfying experience.
Okay, I will articulate this better for you ....
1). Are the standard springs stiff enough to prevent the risk of grounding the car on the road during high speed or "spirited" driving if the car is lowered ?
2). Would anyone here like to share their experience of spacers on the car with respect to handling.
THANK YOU.
P.S. Appreciate the comment about anti-roll bars, its not something I had considered but will investigate, however, it was not something that was mentioned to me by any of the specialists I talked too.
I have a lot of track day experience, and I know what understeer is and what it feels like. The issue of understeer on this car is not with my driving, nor is this simple issue of tyre pressures. Anyone who has driven a F430 Spider around a track will know that the car is heavily setup for understeer and it is a deeply unsatisfying experience.
Okay, I will articulate this better for you ....
1). Are the standard springs stiff enough to prevent the risk of grounding the car on the road during high speed or "spirited" driving if the car is lowered ?
2). Would anyone here like to share their experience of spacers on the car with respect to handling.
THANK YOU.
P.S. Appreciate the comment about anti-roll bars, its not something I had considered but will investigate, however, it was not something that was mentioned to me by any of the specialists I talked too.
thats fine but the big question from your original post was did you? you mentioned all the buzz words around suspension geo without any clear indication you knew what they actually did. you spelled toe "tow" ffs and made a statement about US and UK cars setup that is clearly easily verifiable but which you had made no attempt to even do so on. that you say you have alot of trackday experience is irrelevant. ive drunk alot of beer but know nothing about it. your statements in the above post seem to suggest that my initial concerns were perhaps founded.
however i clearly gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked if perhaps your post was just worded unclearly.
it very much read like you had been told that they understeered and were just flailing around all over the place with all sorts of half information in a blind quest. quite frankly if you knew even some of this stuff or drove the car as you declared you would already know the answers to your questions, especially the spring ones since the 430 runs out of suspension travel when pushed hard and bumpsteers from the rear while also bump understeering from the front as it pushes the stops. its perfectly normal that one might experience this and be aware of it and yet not fully understand what it was or be able to explain if they hadnt raced much and were unable to articulate these sensations properly hence the reason i attempted to explain where i was coming from and ask for more info from you.
that you immediately jump to the fact that its not tyre pressures or driving style with no actual feedback, just a blanket response is telling. even with a perfectly balanced car one is involved in a continual battle with pressures to keep bite. the other, well everyone can always learn and improve. a normal response where thought had already been taken on the matter would have been to have stated things that had been tried or experimented and what this informed you.
i tried to ask you if you knew why you wanted info on this politely while explaining my reasoning and suggesting info that you could provide and also a very simple, obvious and very much tried solution to the general understeer characteristics of the car. i felt this gave you ample room with which to explain that you did and what specifically you wished to know.
sadly only a little bit of knowledge and a ferrari can quickly result in a wallet lightening experience and i was more than keen to advise you as much as i could.
that no "specialist" you talked to even mentioned the ARB would suggest you find some new experts. this would be the first go to point when trying to dial in/out over/understeer on any car. that they did not know the scuderia uprated rear one was readily available, easily installed and being used to cure this issue easily does not speak well of them with respect to this field.
i have not driven a 430 spider, only a friends 16M. i prefer my cars with roofs personally. i have however driven a 430 in regular form a few times and in scuderia and challenge form many many times. i also own a 360 and a GT3, race a Porsche 997 Cup and only this week sold my 360 challenge.
i shall however go back under my stone and leave you to your quest. perhaps you should reread my first post again.
however i clearly gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked if perhaps your post was just worded unclearly.
it very much read like you had been told that they understeered and were just flailing around all over the place with all sorts of half information in a blind quest. quite frankly if you knew even some of this stuff or drove the car as you declared you would already know the answers to your questions, especially the spring ones since the 430 runs out of suspension travel when pushed hard and bumpsteers from the rear while also bump understeering from the front as it pushes the stops. its perfectly normal that one might experience this and be aware of it and yet not fully understand what it was or be able to explain if they hadnt raced much and were unable to articulate these sensations properly hence the reason i attempted to explain where i was coming from and ask for more info from you.
that you immediately jump to the fact that its not tyre pressures or driving style with no actual feedback, just a blanket response is telling. even with a perfectly balanced car one is involved in a continual battle with pressures to keep bite. the other, well everyone can always learn and improve. a normal response where thought had already been taken on the matter would have been to have stated things that had been tried or experimented and what this informed you.
i tried to ask you if you knew why you wanted info on this politely while explaining my reasoning and suggesting info that you could provide and also a very simple, obvious and very much tried solution to the general understeer characteristics of the car. i felt this gave you ample room with which to explain that you did and what specifically you wished to know.
sadly only a little bit of knowledge and a ferrari can quickly result in a wallet lightening experience and i was more than keen to advise you as much as i could.
that no "specialist" you talked to even mentioned the ARB would suggest you find some new experts. this would be the first go to point when trying to dial in/out over/understeer on any car. that they did not know the scuderia uprated rear one was readily available, easily installed and being used to cure this issue easily does not speak well of them with respect to this field.
i have not driven a 430 spider, only a friends 16M. i prefer my cars with roofs personally. i have however driven a 430 in regular form a few times and in scuderia and challenge form many many times. i also own a 360 and a GT3, race a Porsche 997 Cup and only this week sold my 360 challenge.
i shall however go back under my stone and leave you to your quest. perhaps you should reread my first post again.
Edited by fioran0 on Thursday 8th July 03:24
I think the oe springs are too soft. Depends how low you want to go but scud springs are stiffer and I recall the car wallowing. The 430 sits way too high so even if you lowered it on oe springs it would never be right.
Springs and spacers don't cost much so why not just make the purchase and see what suits you best.
Springs and spacers don't cost much so why not just make the purchase and see what suits you best.
Fioran0,
Never forget its a given that every track day goer is obviously a driving God & couldn't possibly be contributing to the issue.....
Mr S its entirely possible by being more descriptive as to under what driving conditions, corner type / power on or off / gear selected etc etc for a helpful poster such as Fioran0 to give you more useful feedback to help solve the issue at hand, his contribution thus far makes good sense to me........
P.S. Love the beer comment!
Never forget its a given that every track day goer is obviously a driving God & couldn't possibly be contributing to the issue.....
Mr S its entirely possible by being more descriptive as to under what driving conditions, corner type / power on or off / gear selected etc etc for a helpful poster such as Fioran0 to give you more useful feedback to help solve the issue at hand, his contribution thus far makes good sense to me........
P.S. Love the beer comment!
Thanks 15HN.
Not looking to go very low on the ride height, as alot of speed humps to negotiate where I live unfortunately. The scud springs are made from titanium and cost $$$, so have been looking at items from Novitec as an alternative.
Ideally would like to do the jobs in stages to see the impact and necessity of doing all the bits .... i.e. geo first, springs next, spacers last .... but I think, and I may be wrong here, I'd have to redo geo if put springs on and then redo it again if I put spacers on ... making it an expensive exercise.
Not looking to go very low on the ride height, as alot of speed humps to negotiate where I live unfortunately. The scud springs are made from titanium and cost $$$, so have been looking at items from Novitec as an alternative.
Ideally would like to do the jobs in stages to see the impact and necessity of doing all the bits .... i.e. geo first, springs next, spacers last .... but I think, and I may be wrong here, I'd have to redo geo if put springs on and then redo it again if I put spacers on ... making it an expensive exercise.
fioran0 said:
thats fine but the big question from your original post was did you? you mentioned all the buzz words around suspension geo without any clear indication you knew what they actually did. you spelled toe "tow" ffs and made a statement about US and UK cars setup that is clearly easily verifiable but which you had made no attempt to even do so on. that you say you have alot of trackday experience is irrelevant. ive drunk alot of beer but know nothing about it. your statements in the above post seem to suggest that my initial concerns were perhaps founded.
however i clearly gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked if perhaps your post was just worded unclearly.
it very much read like you had been told that they understeered and were just flailing around all over the place with all sorts of half information in a blind quest. quite frankly if you knew even some of this stuff or drove the car as you declared you would already know the answers to your questions, especially the spring ones since the 430 runs out of suspension travel when pushed hard and bumpsteers from the rear while also bump understeering from the front as it pushes the stops. its perfectly normal that one might experience this and be aware of it and yet not fully understand what it was or be able to explain if they hadnt raced much and were unable to articulate these sensations properly hence the reason i attempted to explain where i was coming from and ask for more info from you.
that you immediately jump to the fact that its not tyre pressures or driving style with no actual feedback, just a blanket response is telling. even with a perfectly balanced car one is involved in a continual battle with pressures to keep bite. the other, well everyone can always learn and improve. a normal response where thought had already been taken on the matter would have been to have stated things that had been tried or experimented and what this informed you.
i tried to ask you if you knew why you wanted info on this politely while explaining my reasoning and suggesting info that you could provide and also a very simple, obvious and very much tried solution to the general understeer characteristics of the car. i felt this gave you ample room with which to explain that you did and what specifically you wished to know.
sadly only a little bit of knowledge and a ferrari can quickly result in a wallet lightening experience and i was more than keen to advise you as much as i could.
that no "specialist" you talked to even mentioned the ARB would suggest you find some new experts. this would be the first go to point when trying to dial in/out over/understeer on any car. that they did not know the scuderia uprated rear one was readily available, easily installed and being used to cure this issue easily does not speak well of them with respect to this field.
i have not driven a 430 spider, only a friends 16M. i prefer my cars with roofs personally. i have however driven a 430 in regular form a few times and in scuderia and challenge form many many times. i also own a 360 and a GT3, race a Porsche 997 Cup and only this week sold my 360 challenge.
i shall however go back under my stone and leave you to your quest. perhaps you should reread my first post again.
Interesting but I don't agree with everything.however i clearly gave you the benefit of the doubt and asked if perhaps your post was just worded unclearly.
it very much read like you had been told that they understeered and were just flailing around all over the place with all sorts of half information in a blind quest. quite frankly if you knew even some of this stuff or drove the car as you declared you would already know the answers to your questions, especially the spring ones since the 430 runs out of suspension travel when pushed hard and bumpsteers from the rear while also bump understeering from the front as it pushes the stops. its perfectly normal that one might experience this and be aware of it and yet not fully understand what it was or be able to explain if they hadnt raced much and were unable to articulate these sensations properly hence the reason i attempted to explain where i was coming from and ask for more info from you.
that you immediately jump to the fact that its not tyre pressures or driving style with no actual feedback, just a blanket response is telling. even with a perfectly balanced car one is involved in a continual battle with pressures to keep bite. the other, well everyone can always learn and improve. a normal response where thought had already been taken on the matter would have been to have stated things that had been tried or experimented and what this informed you.
i tried to ask you if you knew why you wanted info on this politely while explaining my reasoning and suggesting info that you could provide and also a very simple, obvious and very much tried solution to the general understeer characteristics of the car. i felt this gave you ample room with which to explain that you did and what specifically you wished to know.
sadly only a little bit of knowledge and a ferrari can quickly result in a wallet lightening experience and i was more than keen to advise you as much as i could.
that no "specialist" you talked to even mentioned the ARB would suggest you find some new experts. this would be the first go to point when trying to dial in/out over/understeer on any car. that they did not know the scuderia uprated rear one was readily available, easily installed and being used to cure this issue easily does not speak well of them with respect to this field.
i have not driven a 430 spider, only a friends 16M. i prefer my cars with roofs personally. i have however driven a 430 in regular form a few times and in scuderia and challenge form many many times. i also own a 360 and a GT3, race a Porsche 997 Cup and only this week sold my 360 challenge.
i shall however go back under my stone and leave you to your quest. perhaps you should reread my first post again.
Edited by fioran0 on Thursday 8th July 03:24
Must say I agree with Shakman that 430 understeers more than it should. Must also say that 430 Scuderia is faster but balance is no better. (You must have found this when you tracked it Fioran0?) Anyways, both cars handling was much more neutral after I had had suspension setting tweaked. Totally disagree about changing rear ARB from Scuderia's. It would be last thing to do to a 430 for reasons above, the Scud itself needs 'correcting'. I didn't need to do it to my base 430 and car was much better.
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Thursday 8th July 12:58
ShakMan said:
Thanks 15HN.
Not looking to go very low on the ride height, as alot of speed humps to negotiate where I live unfortunately. The scud springs are made from titanium and cost $$$, so have been looking at items from Novitec as an alternative.
Ideally would like to do the jobs in stages to see the impact and necessity of doing all the bits .... i.e. geo first, springs next, spacers last .... but I think, and I may be wrong here, I'd have to redo geo if put springs on and then redo it again if I put spacers on ... making it an expensive exercise.
ok i only mentioned the scud springs as they are stiffer. I would buy stiffer/shorter springs from Novitec, Eibach or H&R or whatever and fit them, do the geo and then add the spacers as a second stage to see the affect. doing the geo first is a waste of ££ as you will have to redo it.Not looking to go very low on the ride height, as alot of speed humps to negotiate where I live unfortunately. The scud springs are made from titanium and cost $$$, so have been looking at items from Novitec as an alternative.
Ideally would like to do the jobs in stages to see the impact and necessity of doing all the bits .... i.e. geo first, springs next, spacers last .... but I think, and I may be wrong here, I'd have to redo geo if put springs on and then redo it again if I put spacers on ... making it an expensive exercise.
i was going to respond but then thought better of it. its going to take me all afternooon to go over this and respond appropriately and since you all seem to have it covered theres clearly no need. im sure we all have better things to do. remind me again why theres never much in the way of tech info on the forums?
i did however want to post to show that i had followed up rather than just ignored the posts.
i sadly forget that selective reading disorder is on the rise and that the ability to read does not equate to ones ability to understand.
good luck with the mods to the car. i genuinely hope you get many happy miles. cars are there to be enjoyed.
if you want a cheap and ready way to banish understeer altogether however try and leave your braking until later. the closer you can get the braking point to the point at which you turn for the apex, the more you will find understeer completely non existent in these cars.
i did however want to post to show that i had followed up rather than just ignored the posts.
i sadly forget that selective reading disorder is on the rise and that the ability to read does not equate to ones ability to understand.
good luck with the mods to the car. i genuinely hope you get many happy miles. cars are there to be enjoyed.
if you want a cheap and ready way to banish understeer altogether however try and leave your braking until later. the closer you can get the braking point to the point at which you turn for the apex, the more you will find understeer completely non existent in these cars.
Edited by fioran0 on Thursday 8th July 18:04
fioran0 said:
i was going to respond but then thought better of it. its going to take me all afternooon to go over this and respond appropriately and since you all seem to have it covered theres no need. im sure we both have better things to do. remind me again why theres never much in the way of tech info on the forums?
i did however want to post to show that i had followed up.
murcielagoboy, if you read my post you will see i never stated the 430 didnt understeer. i merely asked for clarification from him as to when it presented and what he had already done to address and the impact this had so i could offer some thoughts. theres several causes that each give this effect ranging from the downright obvious of tyre pressures and entry speed/line/throttle input to the various physical tendencies of the car itself. i can count on the one hand the number of times ive seen anyone monitor tyre pressure at a track day and yet these cars are exceptionally pressure sensitive. there was no point offering info without knowing this or so i thought. apparently there was a readily available catch all after all.
glad you got it all sorted out with your car by simply tweaking the suspension. thats a very cost effective change out. how did this deal with rear bumpsteer, front bump stop pushing and the weight transfer characteristics of the regular 430 that present themselves way before these first two. these are probably the main fundamentals of understeer present in the car or would you list others before these? probably a little bit of camber would tidy that right up!!
what about the underdampning present on both 430 and scuderia when tracked which also impacts balance and can create understeer when pushed if entry speed isnt correct. many opt for motons on track days to deal with this or indeed adapt driving style, how infuriating that geo offered a simple remedy.
if you want a no cost understeer curing solution just brake much later and as close to turn in as you can manage. if you can get on the brakes right as you begin to head for the apex you should find understeer is no longer any issue whatsoever. you dont need any spacers or springs to sort this one out.
Thanks for the (bitingly sarcastic) lecture dad, next time save it for schooltime. I just reported my own findings, didn't expect a pi55ing match. All other things being equal, 430 and Scud understeer. Some of this can be remedied by tweaking suspension. Fact. If you, driving god, spent £1M sorting it with a team of lecturing mechanics and Ross Brawn, you win. Thanks.i did however want to post to show that i had followed up.
murcielagoboy, if you read my post you will see i never stated the 430 didnt understeer. i merely asked for clarification from him as to when it presented and what he had already done to address and the impact this had so i could offer some thoughts. theres several causes that each give this effect ranging from the downright obvious of tyre pressures and entry speed/line/throttle input to the various physical tendencies of the car itself. i can count on the one hand the number of times ive seen anyone monitor tyre pressure at a track day and yet these cars are exceptionally pressure sensitive. there was no point offering info without knowing this or so i thought. apparently there was a readily available catch all after all.
glad you got it all sorted out with your car by simply tweaking the suspension. thats a very cost effective change out. how did this deal with rear bumpsteer, front bump stop pushing and the weight transfer characteristics of the regular 430 that present themselves way before these first two. these are probably the main fundamentals of understeer present in the car or would you list others before these? probably a little bit of camber would tidy that right up!!
what about the underdampning present on both 430 and scuderia when tracked which also impacts balance and can create understeer when pushed if entry speed isnt correct. many opt for motons on track days to deal with this or indeed adapt driving style, how infuriating that geo offered a simple remedy.
if you want a no cost understeer curing solution just brake much later and as close to turn in as you can manage. if you can get on the brakes right as you begin to head for the apex you should find understeer is no longer any issue whatsoever. you dont need any spacers or springs to sort this one out.
Edited by fioran0 on Thursday 8th July 15:20
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