Yet another exhaust question!!
Discussion
I know everyone has to be tired of opinions on aftermarket exhausts for 4 cylinders, but I have read pasts posts and I am even more undecided...
I just got my 93.5. I can honestly say the only complaint I have is the sound of the car. I have people pulling up along side of me all the time and rolling their windows down so they can hear the car, and needless to say they must be dissapointed. Same can be said of people walking up to me wanting me to start it so they can hear it.
I love the fact I can get the performance I do out of a 4 banger, but I really would like to do something about the sound. I was thinking about leaving the car as is for a while, but after jumping on the go peddle with my wife following, she told me all she heard was the turbo
...
So the 10,000 dollar question is which exhaust do I want/need to buy? I would give anything for the sound of a ferrari, so obviously not expecting to get that, please use that as a reference when offering your opinions...
I think the Tubi is basically going to be out of my price range, so unless it is just absolutely heads and shoulders above everything on the market, I have ruled it out. I love the idea of a dual exhaust, but really am uneasy about modifying the rear valance, unless, as above, it makes a VERY noticeable difference.
What else do I need to do to the exhaust when installing the new system, i.e. catalytic removal or such?
Thanks again for putting up with another question on this subject, but I really want to get it right, and I just haven't been having any luck on making my decision.
Mike Curbo
93.5 Esprit (Black all over from the asphalt up to the roof antenae)
Arkansas, USA
I just got my 93.5. I can honestly say the only complaint I have is the sound of the car. I have people pulling up along side of me all the time and rolling their windows down so they can hear the car, and needless to say they must be dissapointed. Same can be said of people walking up to me wanting me to start it so they can hear it.
I love the fact I can get the performance I do out of a 4 banger, but I really would like to do something about the sound. I was thinking about leaving the car as is for a while, but after jumping on the go peddle with my wife following, she told me all she heard was the turbo
... So the 10,000 dollar question is which exhaust do I want/need to buy? I would give anything for the sound of a ferrari, so obviously not expecting to get that, please use that as a reference when offering your opinions...
I think the Tubi is basically going to be out of my price range, so unless it is just absolutely heads and shoulders above everything on the market, I have ruled it out. I love the idea of a dual exhaust, but really am uneasy about modifying the rear valance, unless, as above, it makes a VERY noticeable difference.
What else do I need to do to the exhaust when installing the new system, i.e. catalytic removal or such?
Thanks again for putting up with another question on this subject, but I really want to get it right, and I just haven't been having any luck on making my decision.
Mike Curbo
93.5 Esprit (Black all over from the asphalt up to the roof antenae)
Arkansas, USA
KarlFranz (www.espritfactfile.com) dumped his muffler all together and runs just straight pipes from the cat back. It certainly does NOT sound like a four cylinder. If price is a consideration, that may be an option...
ErnestM
ErnestM
Hi,
First thing you need to do is lower your expectations or you'll never be satisfied.
The sound of a 4 cylinder, single plane crank engine has a character all it's own, but it will never reach, or even come close to, the staccato of an Italian V8. Not to mention, Lotus does not employ a small cadre of Accoustic Engineers to sound tune the exhaust note as does the fabricator from Maranello.
Before you go throwing all kinds of $$ into the expensive mods required of a dual exhaust system I would recommend that you keep the one you have for a while and develop an ear for it. It will grow on you.
Also, it would be helpful to elicit some .wav files from others who have done the work to insure that, for you, there is a cost/benefit ratio worth pursuing.
But, realize, you may be able to increase the sound, but tone and cadence are pretty much a factor of the engine and no exhaust system will alter that significantly. Good Luck. Happy Motoring!... Jim'85TE (with an exhaust note the envy of most SE owners who've heard it from the stock, single exhaust)
First thing you need to do is lower your expectations or you'll never be satisfied.
The sound of a 4 cylinder, single plane crank engine has a character all it's own, but it will never reach, or even come close to, the staccato of an Italian V8. Not to mention, Lotus does not employ a small cadre of Accoustic Engineers to sound tune the exhaust note as does the fabricator from Maranello.
Before you go throwing all kinds of $$ into the expensive mods required of a dual exhaust system I would recommend that you keep the one you have for a while and develop an ear for it. It will grow on you.
Also, it would be helpful to elicit some .wav files from others who have done the work to insure that, for you, there is a cost/benefit ratio worth pursuing.
But, realize, you may be able to increase the sound, but tone and cadence are pretty much a factor of the engine and no exhaust system will alter that significantly. Good Luck. Happy Motoring!... Jim'85TE (with an exhaust note the envy of most SE owners who've heard it from the stock, single exhaust)
I agree with Jim.
You just can't get away from the fact that it is only a four pot chuffing away behind you.
I can forgive the awkward gearchange and drive round the turbo lag, but the exhaust note is sadly uninspiring.
Like Jim, I have no catalyst to worry about and a straight through box, which makes the best of a bad job.
The best you get is the snap crackle and pop on the over-run and the snarl of the Dellortos when you open it up.
The fluttering wastegate, however, reminds me of a toilet being flushed....
Pat.
You just can't get away from the fact that it is only a four pot chuffing away behind you.
I can forgive the awkward gearchange and drive round the turbo lag, but the exhaust note is sadly uninspiring.
Like Jim, I have no catalyst to worry about and a straight through box, which makes the best of a bad job.
The best you get is the snap crackle and pop on the over-run and the snarl of the Dellortos when you open it up.
The fluttering wastegate, however, reminds me of a toilet being flushed....
Pat.
As Ernie said, just get rid the of the exhaust altogether and go with a straight pipe from the cat to the tips. NO ONE who has heard my car can believe that it only has 4-cylinders! Of course, you must be prepared to deal with the crackles and pops on lift-off as well as the added attention that your car will garner as you drive by. I for one happen to really like the way it sounds.
Cheers,
KFM :-)
www.espritfactfile.com
Cheers,
KFM :-)
www.espritfactfile.com
karlfranz said:
As Ernie said, just get rid the of the exhaust altogether and go with a straight pipe from the cat to the tips. NO ONE who has heard my car can believe that it only has 4-cylinders! Of course, you must be prepared to deal with the crackles and pops on lift-off as well as the added attention that your car will garner as you drive by. I for one happen to really like the way it sounds.
Cheers,
KFM :-)
www.espritfactfile.com
KFM,
I guess this is one area which is really subjective. My friend has an S4s with the exact setup you have, no cat, straight pipe, no tip. It sounds great, but definitely still a 4 banger, albeit a 4 BANGER. I like it too, but don't think it's comparable to any other engine such as a V8. Happy Motoring!... Jim'85TE
Last year in March I had my muffler cut off and a 10 inch, 2 diameter pipe welded on, $45.
No more sewing machine sound. More like F1 at Indy.
Lift off the gas and I get a few pops out the exhaust, nothing more. IMPRESSIVE.
My audiometer gave 60 dB in the car and 80 dB 3 feet from the exhaust. Inside a carport or garage it is a bit louder.
Lotusman
'89 non-SE
No more sewing machine sound. More like F1 at Indy.
Lift off the gas and I get a few pops out the exhaust, nothing more. IMPRESSIVE.
My audiometer gave 60 dB in the car and 80 dB 3 feet from the exhaust. Inside a carport or garage it is a bit louder.
Lotusman
'89 non-SE
karlfranz said:
As Ernie said, just get rid the of the exhaust altogether and go with a straight pipe from the cat to the tips.
I know it's not as bad as running open headers since the turbo and cat are still there, but any dangers by running a straight pipe due to lowered backpressure? I've been toying with the idea for a while now...
A friend of mine with an S4 is running straight pipe w/the cat, and it sounds much better than the stock exhaust. AZ88TURBO replaced the muffler on his '88 with one off a Camaro, and recently gutted the cat...sounds pretty good also, but doesn't seem quite as loud as the straight pipe.
thanks!
Bill
'95 S4S
lotusguy said:
KFM,
I guess this is one area which is really subjective. My friend has an S4s with the exact setup you have, no cat, straight pipe, no tip. It sounds great, but definitely still a 4 banger, albeit a 4 BANGER. I like it too, but don't think it's comparable to any other engine such as a V8. Happy Motoring!... Jim'85TE
Hi Jim,
I've always admired and appreciated your contributions so, in this case, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Many people have approached me to say they prefer the sound of my car to the Esprit V8. Like others, the V8's exhaust was a huge disappointment to me. The automotive press said it was like two 4-bangers put together. I agree. Definitely nowhere near the beautiful music of the Ferrari V8 cars.
For the record, your friend's S4s can't have the same exact setup as mine since you stated that his has no cat or exhaust tips. Also, although I have a "straight pipe" in concept, I think the dual s-bends on my twin center exhaust help in its resonance.
Cheers
karlfranz said:
KFM,
I guess this is one area which is really subjective. My friend has an S4s with the exact setup you have, no cat, straight pipe, no tip. It sounds great, but definitely still a 4 banger, albeit a 4 BANGER. I like it too, but don't think it's comparable to any other engine such as a V8. Happy Motoring!... Jim'85TE
Hi Jim,
I've always admired and appreciated your contributions so, in this case, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.
Many people have approached me to say they prefer the sound of my car to the Esprit V8. Like others, the V8's exhaust was a huge disappointment to me. The automotive press said it was like two 4-bangers put together. I agree. Definitely nowhere near the beautiful music of the Ferrari V8 cars.
For the record, your friend's S4s can't have the same exact setup as mine since you stated that his has no cat or exhaust tips. Also, although I have a "straight pipe" in concept, I think the dual s-bends on my twin center exhaust help in its resonance.
Cheers
KFM,
I see no disagreement at all, like I said, it's a really subjective area. It's All Good! Happy Motoring!... Jim'85TE
dbebb55 said:
Bob,Jim,Karl...
If your cat has been "cleaned out" , doesn't your muffler create needed back pressure? I had thought of replaceing my muffler to get rid of the washing machine sound, but I'm not sure if it would affect the running of the car. Any thoughts???
Dave
90SE
Dave,
The turbo gives all the back pressure that the engine needs. Turbo cars almost allways run better with the exhaust "uncorked".
I would not recommend gutting the cat and running a straight pipe. When I had bought my S4 the PO had cleaned out the cat and installed a "straight thru" design resinator muffler which he had actually sleaved with a peice of exhaust pipe.
It sounded like a Chevy Chevette with no muffler!
At the least if the cat is cleaned out, you should use a free flowing chambered muffler.
If your cat is still intact then a straight thru resinator style muffler wouldn't sound bad.
Mike
I am very happy with the sound of my exhaust and the sound of the carbs is really awesome under full throttle. I can't tell ya how many people have commented on my great sounding car. The 15 yr old car still turns plenty of heads. As for the V8's I am not that impressed with the sound. Sure they have a bit of a bark but nothing that hits ya in the heart if you know what I mean. I only say this because I have grown up with hotted up V8's all my life. The sound of a good V8 makes you tremble and tummy drops its an amazing feeling when you hear a good one.
At the end of the day we are all individual and varied tastes are widely expressed here and thats what I love. My opinion is if you want to hear an awesome exhaust on a V8 powered engine, go to a Hot Rod show and wait for them to arrive or leave so you can hear them give their engines some stick.
At the end of the day we are all individual and varied tastes are widely expressed here and thats what I love. My opinion is if you want to hear an awesome exhaust on a V8 powered engine, go to a Hot Rod show and wait for them to arrive or leave so you can hear them give their engines some stick.
Thanks for the quick replies...
I hope no one misunderstood me, and thought I was expecting my Lotus to sound like a Ferrari. I realize that will never happen. I do know it is possible to have a better sounding 4 banger. Just take the Fiat 124 for example. It is another Italian car, of course, but I have been quite impressed with the sound of both of mine. Definately no Ferrari, but an unusually lower note than you would expect from a high strung 4 cylinder.
I see no one recommending any of the aftermarket products, so I can assume they don't really offer that much more to the overall sound vs. the straight pipe.
If I am understanding everyone correctly, I just need to take it to the muffler shop this morning and have them cut it post cat with a couple of bends and out the back. I assume I can get a nice tip to help in the appearance (has to be better than the stock tip). I also like the idea of possibly enlarging the diameter. I would assume (maybe incorrectly) that this might add a little more ressonance. I like the idea of the F1 race sound, I just am not sure about the crackling/popping and possible backfire issues.
This would be an extremely cheap and quick experiment for the time being, so I think I will see how busy they are when they open up. If I don't like it, I was already prepared to buy a nice stainless, so I will just go that route.
Thanks again - Mike
I hope no one misunderstood me, and thought I was expecting my Lotus to sound like a Ferrari. I realize that will never happen. I do know it is possible to have a better sounding 4 banger. Just take the Fiat 124 for example. It is another Italian car, of course, but I have been quite impressed with the sound of both of mine. Definately no Ferrari, but an unusually lower note than you would expect from a high strung 4 cylinder.
I see no one recommending any of the aftermarket products, so I can assume they don't really offer that much more to the overall sound vs. the straight pipe.
If I am understanding everyone correctly, I just need to take it to the muffler shop this morning and have them cut it post cat with a couple of bends and out the back. I assume I can get a nice tip to help in the appearance (has to be better than the stock tip). I also like the idea of possibly enlarging the diameter. I would assume (maybe incorrectly) that this might add a little more ressonance. I like the idea of the F1 race sound, I just am not sure about the crackling/popping and possible backfire issues.
This would be an extremely cheap and quick experiment for the time being, so I think I will see how busy they are when they open up. If I don't like it, I was already prepared to buy a nice stainless, so I will just go that route.
Thanks again - Mike
mcurbo said:
If I am understanding everyone correctly, I just need to take it to the muffler shop this morning and have them cut it post cat with a couple of bends and out the back.
This would be an extremely cheap and quick experiment for the time being, If I don't like it, I was already prepared to buy a nice stainless, so I will just go that route.
Thanks again - Mike
Sounds very sensible. Please keep us updated as to how you find it.
I just got off the phone with them and they can get me right in...
The price is as mentioned earlier, right about $50. I will try and get his opinion on anything he can do to get different types of sounds with different configurations.
I will definately let everyone know what I had done and first impressions when I get it back here shortly.
Mike
The price is as mentioned earlier, right about $50. I will try and get his opinion on anything he can do to get different types of sounds with different configurations.
I will definately let everyone know what I had done and first impressions when I get it back here shortly.
Mike
Well, I just got back...
First impressions are very good! I wouldn't say awesome, but very close to Wow! Granted I haven't heard the car from the rear, but based off echoes with the windows down, I dare say the car sounds almost as fast as it looks...
It definately sounds better in my opinion. The elderly couple living next door to me seem to think so also. I apologized to them when I pulled in and saw them in their front yard. The street was empty and I wanted to open it up a bit to see what I thought. They knew I was coming, and we all thought the sound was more befitting the car.
There is some "crackling" on de-throttle, but not real harsh sounding like I had imagined. In just my brief time of driving, I think I have found that I can feather the throttle some to reduce it. Although this won't help much for engine braking, it should solve any probs in and around town.
I have to wash the car, then I will take it for a nice stroll on some hilly curved highways to get a better rounded opinion of how it sounds/does... I hope to follow up if any of my initial impressions have changed.
By the way... they ended up cutting the can out right past the last curve at the back where the pipe runs parallel to the rear, before entering the muffler. From there they continued a 2 1/2" straight pipe to the RH exit, where they 90'd and went straight out the back. Considering how rusty and corroded the stock can was, this actually looks better in my opinion. Now you see a nice shiny 2 1/2" pipe through the rear mesh. Looks nice and clean to me.
Mike
First impressions are very good! I wouldn't say awesome, but very close to Wow! Granted I haven't heard the car from the rear, but based off echoes with the windows down, I dare say the car sounds almost as fast as it looks...
It definately sounds better in my opinion. The elderly couple living next door to me seem to think so also. I apologized to them when I pulled in and saw them in their front yard. The street was empty and I wanted to open it up a bit to see what I thought. They knew I was coming, and we all thought the sound was more befitting the car.
There is some "crackling" on de-throttle, but not real harsh sounding like I had imagined. In just my brief time of driving, I think I have found that I can feather the throttle some to reduce it. Although this won't help much for engine braking, it should solve any probs in and around town.
I have to wash the car, then I will take it for a nice stroll on some hilly curved highways to get a better rounded opinion of how it sounds/does... I hope to follow up if any of my initial impressions have changed.
By the way... they ended up cutting the can out right past the last curve at the back where the pipe runs parallel to the rear, before entering the muffler. From there they continued a 2 1/2" straight pipe to the RH exit, where they 90'd and went straight out the back. Considering how rusty and corroded the stock can was, this actually looks better in my opinion. Now you see a nice shiny 2 1/2" pipe through the rear mesh. Looks nice and clean to me.
Mike
Okay, here's another twist on the exhaust:
I have an '88 with a gutted cat (previous owner did it). I've been told that the muffler on the car is the original one, but I have my doubts. I looked underneath and it says "Langford" on it. Was Langford a factory supplier and do you think this is the factory muffler?
Anyway, while out of state, I recently had a ride in my buddy's '88 which also had a gutted cat and for sure has the factory muffler. Since it was night and so dark, I couldn't see his muffler for comparison, but I do know for a fact that his sounded way louder, deeper, and better than mine.
Noise level is a funny thing. Very subjective and one person's noise is another's music. All of my cars traditionally have been very loud and it doesn't bother me. I prefer it actually. My Japanese daily driver is really loud.
Another good friend of mine replaced his muffler with a straight pipe on his '93.5 which also has a gutted cat. He couldn't handle the noise and said that it was too loud and that you also heard other funny noises as a result. He switched it back right away before I could even have a chance to hear it. Personally, I think my tolerance for noise, er I mean exhaust music, is a lot higher.
Would it be waaaaay too loud to run an '88 with a gutted cat and straight pipe on the street? Has anyone actually done this that can tell me? I would think that the turbo would still subdue the sound level to a certain extent.
Roy
P.S. I'll be travelling on business again tomorrow
(all the time lately!) so please forgive me if I
don't respond right away. Thanks.
I have an '88 with a gutted cat (previous owner did it). I've been told that the muffler on the car is the original one, but I have my doubts. I looked underneath and it says "Langford" on it. Was Langford a factory supplier and do you think this is the factory muffler?
Anyway, while out of state, I recently had a ride in my buddy's '88 which also had a gutted cat and for sure has the factory muffler. Since it was night and so dark, I couldn't see his muffler for comparison, but I do know for a fact that his sounded way louder, deeper, and better than mine.
Noise level is a funny thing. Very subjective and one person's noise is another's music. All of my cars traditionally have been very loud and it doesn't bother me. I prefer it actually. My Japanese daily driver is really loud.
Another good friend of mine replaced his muffler with a straight pipe on his '93.5 which also has a gutted cat. He couldn't handle the noise and said that it was too loud and that you also heard other funny noises as a result. He switched it back right away before I could even have a chance to hear it. Personally, I think my tolerance for noise, er I mean exhaust music, is a lot higher.
Would it be waaaaay too loud to run an '88 with a gutted cat and straight pipe on the street? Has anyone actually done this that can tell me? I would think that the turbo would still subdue the sound level to a certain extent.
Roy
P.S. I'll be travelling on business again tomorrow
(all the time lately!) so please forgive me if I
don't respond right away. Thanks.
princecharming said:
Would it be waaaaay too loud to run an '88 with a gutted cat and straight pipe on the street? Has anyone actually done this that can tell me? I would think that the turbo would still subdue the sound level to a certain extent.
Hi Roy,
The cat housing itself, even though gutted, will probably subdue the sound as well. Before I got my Micklewright exhaust, it was fitted to Neil's car, which had a punched cat. The sound was obviously a great improvement, but not overly loud. When I put it on my car, which has a straight 'test-pipe' replacement for the cat, I was a bit floored at the difference in volume level. I'm used to it (and love it) now, but at first I was afraid it was too loud. There's no mistaking it when I blast through an underpass!
The worst that can happen is you'll have to stick a small muffler in there later, but from your post I'd venture to say it's not going to be an issue.
Cheers,
Sanj
Hey Sanj!
Great to hear from you. Thanks for the answer. That's exactly the answer that I was hoping for. Looks like I now have my next project if I ever get my Esprit back from the bodyshop. Hoping that it will be soon.
Hope that you and the other Lotus Corp members are doing well. Happy Friday, everyone!
Roy
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