Almost took a bike out....who would be at fault?

[uk89camaro]

I'm waiting at a T junction in my car, waiting to turn right. Not a difficult junction to navigate out of, and I was waiting for the traffic in both directions to clear. Traffic approaching on the left is clear for 30 seconds or so, traffic on the right has a car indicating left into the junction I'm waiting at. There is another car behind him, about 30 yards behind.

The car indicating left slows, I pull out to proceed to turn right, and a bike (that must have been tucked away on his right hand flank) accelerated to overtake whilst I was performing the turn. Nearly shat myself as we passed within inches of each other, and am truely thankful we didn't connect.

if we had connected, who would be at fault? I didn't see him until halfway across the road, as he was tucked in tight to the RH flank of the turning car?

Please bikers, don't cause me to soil my pants again this week.

[PeteG]

Silly riding, that's for sure - but the authorities would say "if you can't say 100% it's clear to go, you don't go". Of course, in the real world, it never happens like that.

[v1paul]

Pretty sure it would be you at fault. In most incidents, the person who pulls out of the turn is at fault.

[Rusty Arches]

You'd be at fault, could have easily been another car overtaking.

Although that's a stupid bit of riding and he might learn not to overtake at junctions.

[Pothole]

You. You appear to have assumed that because the approaching car was indicating right the way was clear for you to turn. I'm gonna sound pompous here but I always wait for the car to actually turn so I can see past it before I pull out. 30 years of riding and too many near misses to recount make me that way.

ETA, poor riding from the biker too, he should have been aware of the turning and anticipating your arrival.

Edited by Pothole on Sunday 11th July 22:25

[OwenK]

v1paul said:

Pretty sure it would be you at fault. In most incidents, the person who pulls out of the turn is at fault.

In my opinion I would agree. Although you couldn't see him, the bike was already established and you are expected to give way to him (assuming it was a normal T junction where the road you're turning on to is a continuous stretch, with a give way line between you and it). Scary though - one of those times where, beforehand, you would have been quite happy to say that you were 100% sure it was safe to go...

[Fartgalen]

v1paul said:

Pretty sure it would be you at fault. In most incidents, the person who pulls out of the turn is at fault.

This.

Plus, I'll add as a biker myself. Stupid to over take at a junction.

[PeteG]

Pothole said:

...I always wait for the car to actually turn so I can see past it before I pull out. 30 years of riding and too many near misses to recount make me that way.

He says he waited for it to slow - in a lot of cases, that's sufficient (stealthy cyclists notwithstanding).

My dad always said, wait until you see the wheels turn. It's a very good tip that I tend to use, unless the car has very obviously shed enough speed to make the turn.

[Caruso]

Which side of the road was the bike on? If it was on the wrong side of the road then the situation isn't as clear cut.

[kambites]

Both of you. You pulled out when you didn't know it to be clear and he overtook past a junction.

[Somnophore]

You've pulled from a junction into his path, you would be at fault, you should wait for the car to make the turn before pulling out, they could have left their indicator on and not be turning in, whenever you pull from junction into the path of a car from the right whatever the mitigating circumstances you will be considered at fault

[Pothole]

PeteG said:

Pothole said:

...I always wait for the car to actually turn so I can see past it before I pull out. 30 years of riding and too many near misses to recount make me that way.

He says he waited for it to slow - in a lot of cases, that's sufficient (stealthy cyclists notwithstanding).

My dad always said, wait until you see the wheels turn. It's a very good tip that I tend to use, unless the car has very obviously shed enough speed to make the turn.

fk that, it's not the turning car I'm waiting for it's whatever's behind it.

[RobM77]

Overtaking at a junction? Crazy. I say the biker would be at fault, but I can't speak for the law.

[Condi]

Bad driving, bad riding. I overtake regularly at such occasions though, why bother slowing down to 15mph when there is a clear side of the road? You just have to be a bit more sure of whats happening, if there is a clear junction then go for it, if there is a car there then wait and see what he does - has he seen me, is he going to go or is he going to wait, if he goes have I got enough space? Etc.

Ducks from PH advanced driving and road warrior collective!

[RobM77]

Condi said:

Bad driving, bad riding. I overtake regularly at such occasions though, why bother slowing down to 15mph when there is a clear side of the road? You just have to be a bit more sure of whats happening, if there is a clear junction then go for it, if there is a car there then wait and see what he does - has he seen me, is he going to go or is he going to wait, if he goes have I got enough space? Etc.

Ducks from PH advanced driving and road warrior collective!

Well, everything in Advanced driving has several layers of safety, and if you want to remove all but one, go ahead. However, if you're hiding behind a car and overtake on a junction, then don't complain if you get hit!

[Antony Moxey]

What if the car wasn't turning left and the OP thought he could exit junction safely? Would he still be at fault if a bike overtook the car and hit the OP? Of course I'm happy to be corrected on this but it seems as though it would be the bike's fault for overtaking, especially near to a junction.

Whilst I'm not going to argue about observation, anticipation and pulling out when safe, surely you can't anticipate EVERYTHING, including a bike appearing from nowhere overtaking a car approaching from your right?

[the_lone_wolf]

Not aimed directly at the OP, but why do so many people think bikes magically spring into existence from the ether??

So many times I've seen/heard people say that a rider "came from nowhere" or "suddenly appeared"

They were there all along, surely you'd have noticed if you were anticipating / observing properly??

[Silver Smudger]

Caruso said:

Which side of the road was the bike on? If it was on the wrong side of the road then the situation isn't as clear cut.

Good question - My wife had a similar situation where the car approaching from the right was in a line of cars waiting for temp traffic lights to change. A motorbike overtook the queue on the other side of the road and went right over her bonnet.

The police attending put the blame squarely on the biker.

[shalmaneser]

Pothole said:

You. You appear to have assumed that because the approaching car was indicating right the way was clear for you to turn. I'm gonna sound pompous here but I always wait for the car to actually turn so I can see past it before I pull out. 30 years of riding and too many near misses to recount make me that way.

ETA, poor riding from the biker too, he should have been aware of the turning and anticipating your arrival.

Edited by Pothole on Sunday 11th July 22:25

I didn't do this once and got driven into.

totally my fault according to the insurance, despite the other drivers indicators suggesting they were going to turn in.

Be careful out there.

[supra legend]

A friend of a friend had an accident under these circumstances on his bike, Overtaking a car pulling in only to hit a car pulling out. I don't know too many facts about the outcome apart from a large payout to the lad on the bike. He clean snapped his leg.