Cost comparison for solving fueling issues

[mikesp]

Took the Wedge into V8 Developements for a health check because the hydrocarbons were high. Great guys I thought. They confirmed that at tickover it's about right, when cruising it's slightly rich but on acceleration it is literally throwing fuel down it's throat. Adjustments to the timing do not provide a setting which is usable throught the rev range. All the rest, compressions, distributor, throttle settings etc. all check out.

As the engine tune, heads and cam and chip etc are unknown it's going to need a programmable set up to sort out the fueling throughtout the range.

The two options seem to be a Mark Adams chip and set-up, or the Megasquirt system in either fuel conversion only or full fuel/sparks jobby.

I suppose my preference would be the Megasquirt as it seems to do the entire job, not just part of it. But its expensive to have fitted and set up. Not quite what I had in mind for my next spend, but it's sufficiently bad to worry about the cylinder walls being washed and the associated glazing problems. What do you think? Which methos would be best?

Any and all opinions on the merits or downfalls of each would be much appreciated from anyone who has any personal experience or just knows what they're talking about....

Thanks, Mike

[Number 7]

I suppose ultimately it will depend in some large part on how long you are planning to keep the car. If it's only a couple of years, I would look for alternative cheaper fix than a complete aftermarket ecu. If you think your engine is in reasonable health and is fairly standard as far as you / V8D can tell, would not MA have a chip which could be programmed from his database for such an engine? You would then not really even need a remap session, cutting costs considerably.

On the other hand, if the car is a keeper for the medium-long term, I would look at junking the entire Lucas set-up and go aftermarket. You will be able to dispose of the old ecu, possibly afm, injectors etc to offset the cost. More importantly, you will have control over the ignition & fuelling should you decide to tune the engine, i.e. different cam, bigger valves etc. The other factor worth bearing in mind (partcularly as you say the fuelling is very rich) is that you will certainly improve the fuel consumption. Depending on how many miles you do, and the level of improvement, this can be a significant saving. For example, I've been running MoTeC on my car for 10 years now. I calculated that the improvement in fuel consumption (even with big-valve heads added at the same time) was 2 - 3 mpg. I reckon that I have saved about £1K in fuel costs in that period.

I don't really know about the MS system, but Emerald does seem to be a very popular choice now with Griff/Chim owners. I have 2 friends with 500 Griffs who have both installed Emerald, and are very happy with it. I think that you might also be able to avoid what seems like the biggest hurdle with such a system, which is fitting a crank sensor, necessitating a timing wheel. On my system, the distributor is retained (not only to drive the oil pump) but it is locked up, and control of the ignition timing is via the ecu.

I also think that a lot will depend on how much you can (or want) to do yourself, or how close you are to a company which can do it for you.

Some food for thought anyway.

7.

Edited by Number 7 on Tuesday 20th July 14:02

[rev-erend]

Mike

We did talk on Sunday morning in the car park - I presume you have a flapper.

I am slightly surprised that V8 developments was not able to get to
the bottom of your problem.

We I was talking to you - it did seem to have high HC which is a symptom
of unburnt fuel but as we all know, a rich mixture is needed for a good tickover
as lean mixtures do not burn well and at tickover the air flow tends to stall
which causes an eratic tickover.

This combined with V8 developments assessment that it is progressively richer
under load and acceleration leads me to suspect that someone has tinkered
with the basic set-up to get it to run better.

Hopefully V8 Developments would have first checked the fuel pressure is correct
that all sensors are working within limits and that all wiring and connectors
are in good order.

The flapper system does have an adjustable AFM - both a trim CO value and a larger
spring tension set-up inside. It's possible someone has changed this in the quest to fix another issue in it's 20 year life.

Personally I would try to fix what you have - as swapping parts with another owner is very cheap way of finding the problem if thatfails then look at
more expensive ways of fixing the issue.

[TVRleigh_BBWR]

I'm running an Emerald on the Racer, so if you decided to go that way, I can help with info if needed.
But to get all the kit, installed and setup, is going to cost at least 1K

[mikesp]

rev-erend said:

Mike

We did talk on Sunday morning in the car park - I presume you have a flapper.

I am slightly surprised that V8 developments was not able to get to
the bottom of your problem.

We I was talking to you - it did seem to have high HC which is a symptom
of unburnt fuel but as we all know, a rich mixture is needed for a good tickover
as lean mixtures do not burn well and at tickover the air flow tends to stall
which causes an eratic tickover.

This combined with V8 developments assessment that it is progressively richer
under load and acceleration leads me to suspect that someone has tinkered
with the basic set-up to get it to run better.

Hopefully V8 Developments would have first checked the fuel pressure is correct
that all sensors are working within limits and that all wiring and connectors
are in good order.

The flapper system does have an adjustable AFM - both a trim CO value and a larger
spring tension set-up inside. It's possible someone has changed this in the quest to fix another issue in it's 20 year life.

Personally I would try to fix what you have - as swapping parts with another owner is very cheap way of finding the problem if thatfails then look at
more expensive ways of fixing the issue.

Yes we did chat. You moved away because the HC were a bit strong!

It's a hotwire system on mine. V8D didnt check the fuel pressure, wiring or sensors. They did compressions (which were all good), plug condition, throttle valve setting, timing, advance and a lamba fitted roadtest and made various adjustments on-road. Came back ticking over better, but that's about all. Shaun's comments were that the problem lay with the setting changes not having the desired effect. The fact that it has apparently had engine work in it's life but it's not possible to find out what means that to sort it out properly it would need a map-able ECU.

[mikesp]

TVRleigh_BBWR said:

I'm running an Emerald on the Racer, so if you decided to go that way, I can help with info if needed.
But to get all the kit, installed and setup, is going to cost at least 1K

Thanks for that. That's still £300 below what V8D want to fit the full MS

[mikesp]

Number 7 said:

I suppose ultimately it will depend in some large part on how long you are planning to keep the car. If it's only a couple of years, I would look for alternative cheaper fix than a complete aftermarket ecu. If you think your engine is in reasonable health and is fairly standard as far as you / V8D can tell, would not MA have a chip which could be programmed from his database for such an engine? You would then not really even need a remap session, cutting costs considerably.

On the other hand, if the car is a keeper for the medium-long term, I would look at junking the entire Lucas set-up and go aftermarket. You will be able to dispose of the old ecu, possibly afm, injectors etc to offset the cost. More importantly, you will have control over the ignition & fuelling should you decide to tune the engine, i.e. different cam, bigger valves etc. The other factor worth bearing in mind (partcularly as you say the fuelling is very rich) is that you will certainly improve the fuel consumption. Depending on how many miles you do, and the level of improvement, this can be a significant saving. For example, I've been running MoTeC on my car for 10 years now. I calculated that the improvement in fuel consumption (even with big-valve heads added at the same time) was 2 - 3 mpg. I reckon that I have saved about £1K in fuel costs in that period.

I don't really know about the MS system, but Emerald does seem to be a very popular choice now with Griff/Chim owners. I have 2 friends with 500 Griffs who have both installed Emerald, and are very happy with it. I think that you might also be able to avoid what seems like the biggest hurdle with such a system, which is fitting a crank sensor, necessitating a timing wheel. On my system, the distributor is retained (not only to drive the oil pump) but it is locked up, and control of the ignition timing is via the ecu.

I also think that a lot will depend on how much you can (or want) to do yourself, or how close you are to a company which can do it for you.

Some food for thought anyway.

7.

Edited by Number 7 on Tuesday 20th July 14:02

Thanks for your thoughts.

Aiming to make the car a keeper and do some touring in it, so keeping the fuel costs reasonable would be of great benefit. At the moment the trip from Southampton to Stratford, inc the run out, then to Spalding in Lincs and then home(total 450 miles) cruising at no more than 70mph and half revs acceleration most of the time netted 20mpg. With the fueling etc sorted out its reckoned that could be closer to 28-30. So over a period of time it would eventually pay. Don't get me wrong, if I'm out playing without the rev counter in the passenger seat I don't give a monkeys what it does to the gallon, but on a tour around Scotland or Europe next year..........Also later on any mods done would be covered by a new map. That's why it does seem the way to go. But having it fitted commercially would be £1300. Lot of pennies eh? So, yes I am still considering alternative ideas or suggestions.

Cheers, Mike

[TVRleigh_BBWR]

mikesp said:

TVRleigh_BBWR said:

I'm running an Emerald on the Racer, so if you decided to go that way, I can help with info if needed.
But to get all the kit, installed and setup, is going to cost at least 1K

Thanks for that. That's still £300 below what V8D want to fit the full MS

Do you have details of what your getting for the £1300 for the V8D system.
Are you getting full management with trigger wheel, coil packs and wide band lamda, removal of AFM, Uprated TPS and Air temp sensor.
Also want model MS do you get. is it the fully sequential, or banked injection.
Also is this with a full RR mapping, or just base map.

[mikesp]

TVRleigh_BBWR said:

mikesp said:

TVRleigh_BBWR said:

I'm running an Emerald on the Racer, so if you decided to go that way, I can help with info if needed.
But to get all the kit, installed and setup, is going to cost at least 1K

Thanks for that. That's still £300 below what V8D want to fit the full MS

Do you have details of what your getting for the £1300 for the V8D system.
Are you getting full management with trigger wheel, coil packs and wide band lamda, removal of AFM, Uprated TPS and Air temp sensor.
Also want model MS do you get. is it the fully sequential, or banked injection.
Also is this with a full RR mapping, or just base map.

Blimey!! All I have been told is that there are two specs. One which does the fuel only and another that comes with coil packs, does away with standard ECU, coil and Dizzie. How's that sound?

[ed_crouch]

Admittedly I did the work myself, but I got a Megasquirt2-Extra with wideband lamda system and coilpacks and custom HT leads and other guff for £900.

Happy to help if you want to go MS2.

[TVRleigh_BBWR]

This guy does all Rv8 MS kits, at quite good prices.
http://www.extraefi.co.uk/

[mikesp]

ed_crouch said:

Admittedly I did the work myself, but I got a Megasquirt2-Extra with wideband lamda system and coilpacks and custom HT leads and other guff for £900.

Happy to help if you want to go MS2.

Thanks for that Ed. May take you up on the offer.....

[chunder]

I went the MS route and if you use a wideband o2 sensor you have all you need initially and for any future mods. In fact unless money was no object or you had to have carbs or something I don't know why anyone would go any other route.

Unless misfiring badly now through timing / weak spark I wouldn't worry about that initially, get fuelling right and then upgrade later - or get MS to do spark anyway and just disable initially.

As someone else said try Phil at extraefi - I think he does a plug and play for the hotwire so it doesn't take a great deal of talent and knowledge to be a diy job.

However strange that it should go rich - anything been changed recently ? I understand the mass air sensors get dirty but can be cleaned with a special liquid / process which may be worth a try. Or see if you can borrow one and see if it still happens, likewise the ECU, worth trying before any expense to make sure it is an injector pulse timing issue and not something else.

[mikesp]

chunder said:

I went the MS route and if you use a wideband o2 sensor you have all you need initially and for any future mods. In fact unless money was no object or you had to have carbs or something I don't know why anyone would go any other route.

Unless misfiring badly now through timing / weak spark I wouldn't worry about that initially, get fuelling right and then upgrade later - or get MS to do spark anyway and just disable initially.

As someone else said try Phil at extraefi - I think he does a plug and play for the hotwire so it doesn't take a great deal of talent and knowledge to be a diy job.

However strange that it should go rich - anything been changed recently ? I understand the mass air sensors get dirty but can be cleaned with a special liquid / process which may be worth a try. Or see if you can borrow one and see if it still happens, likewise the ECU, worth trying before any expense to make sure it is an injector pulse timing issue and not something else.

Thanks for the suggestions, good info.

Spoke to Mark Adams also and he suggested sending him a dyno graph with power, torque and fuel details and he will suggest anything obvious to start with. He doesn't think that it's a good idea to change the injection without further investigation first. So will try that first

Thanks, Mike

[Number 7]

Whilst MA is undoubtedly the expert on Lucas systems, there is obviously something of a vested commercial interest in suggesting that such a system is retained. What you can't do with that set-up is map the ignition though, and I think that there are some real benefits to be had by doing so. Once you start spending money on the Lucas system, I would think that there would then be a reluctance to waste that in the future by junking it all. If the car is a keeper, I personally would go after-market fuel & ignition control.

7.

[ferlin]

When they said it was about right at idle, what were the co / hc values then?
Have you tried the simple thing of running it a little leaner before you spend a grand on it?
I know that its not standard but these cars can be made to run quite clean but can be rich and still run ok and stink of fuel

my values at last years mot were:
CO - 3.155 pass
HC 201 ppm pass

This years mot after leaning her out a little which stopped the smelly exhaust fumes like you have and is saving me fuel.
CO - 0.930 pass
HC 113 ppm pass

[KelWedge]

The first wedge I drove didnt have emerald, The wedge I bought a few years ago already had emerald, its been faultless and makes the car much more driveable, I Have just had it remapped (at Emerald) as I had an engine change, It turned a lumpy New engine into a Gem.

[mikesp]

Number 7 said:

Whilst MA is undoubtedly the expert on Lucas systems, there is obviously something of a vested commercial interest in suggesting that such a system is retained. What you can't do with that set-up is map the ignition though, and I think that there are some real benefits to be had by doing so. Once you start spending money on the Lucas system, I would think that there would then be a reluctance to waste that in the future by junking it all. If the car is a keeper, I personally would go after-market fuel & ignition control.

7.

Yeah, I hear what you say and you may be right about a vested commercial interest. It's difficult isn't it, because after a little thought about V8D's comments and the checks they didn't do, I feel a bit the same way about that route as well. I am a bit worried that there may be a more simple explanation to the problem which may solve the major issue without too much expense now and spend some money on some other essentials first. I can upgrade the injection later as an improvement rather than an uncertain cure, knowing that everything else is basically sound.

[pwd95]

If it's a hotwire Mike it could well be a simple fix. MA is the man to diagnose it. Might not even need a RR session. Good luck.

[mikesp]

pwd95 said:

If it's a hotwire Mike it could well be a simple fix. MA is the man to diagnose it. Might not even need a RR session. Good luck.

Thanks Wyn. MH wanted to see the power, torque and fuel graphs for a long-distance diagnosis before spending more on his presence at a diagnostic. Hopefully there will be something fairly obvious. I must get more up to date about injection issues. Mechanical jobs, no probs. Techno stuff yuk.