Atheists - what would it take to change your mind?
Discussion
I consider myself an atheist (not the "hardcore debating" type), but I'm just not bothered by religion and don't think there's any reason to believe in god or a personal diety that created the universe.
That said, the question - what would it take to change your mind - was asked on another forum I frequent, and it really got me thinking. If I said that nothing could ever convince me, that's not a very honest or debatable stance to have. However, if I heard voices in my head or came to some "deep personal revelation", I don't think that's convincing evidence either.
I think it would take a miracle of biblical proportions that couldn't be faked by illusions or advanced technology. Even then, I think time-travel is more feasable than the biblical god (no offense intended, Christians), and I don't think I could distinguish between advanced technology from the future and a miracle that defies all laws of nature.. not just our currently known laws of nature.
I really can't think of anything that would change my mind and make me believe in the god from the bible. I think I should at least be able to say something along the lines of "Well, if x and y happened, that would change my viewpoint".
Also, let's keep it on topic and try to avoid all the standard atheist/theist arguments.
What say you all, PH crowd?
Well, I might strike up a debate with this.
supposedly, accordingly to 'infinity' - Everything and anything is possible in our universe, due to infinity being infinity, there are infinity decisions that can be made in life so somewhere in our universe, every single possible outcome from an event might mirror that of earth, and we have an exact parallel planet.
Which moves onto the fact.
It's 100% possible that we are simply an experiment to a species far more advanced, or simply 'pets' and our 'universe' is simply the equivalent to a goldfish bowl.
When you die, you die - I don't believe in any other form of afterlife, but there could in fact be a 'being' from what we would see as a 'God'.
Head f
k.
Personally, I'd have to see some sort of miracle/prophet which cannot be explained by science.
supposedly, accordingly to 'infinity' - Everything and anything is possible in our universe, due to infinity being infinity, there are infinity decisions that can be made in life so somewhere in our universe, every single possible outcome from an event might mirror that of earth, and we have an exact parallel planet.
Which moves onto the fact.
It's 100% possible that we are simply an experiment to a species far more advanced, or simply 'pets' and our 'universe' is simply the equivalent to a goldfish bowl.
When you die, you die - I don't believe in any other form of afterlife, but there could in fact be a 'being' from what we would see as a 'God'.
Head f
k.Personally, I'd have to see some sort of miracle/prophet which cannot be explained by science.
Edited by I Love Lamp on Tuesday 20th July 17:17
I Love Lamp said:
It's 100% possible that we are simply an experiment to a species far more advanced, or simply 'pets' and our 'universe' is simply the equivalent to a goldfish bowl.
When you die, you die - I don't believe in any other form of afterlife, but there could in fact be a 'being' from what we would see as a 'God'.
Head fk.
Yep, I like that idea, but for this thought experiment, let's define God as the biblical/Christian God, who is able to work outside the laws of physics and time. When you die, you die - I don't believe in any other form of afterlife, but there could in fact be a 'being' from what we would see as a 'God'.
Head f
k.Still, perhaps we (as humans) work outside the laws of physics and time as they're understood by a goldfish in a bowl.
hah, headf
k indeed!I am a healthy Agnostic (ooooh get the fence sitter!!) but I am so for a reason.
In answering, I'm quoting the chap above:
"Personally, I'd have to see some sort of miracle/prophet which cannot be explained by science."
This is the exact reason I am Agnostic and not Atheist.
On balance, it seems extremely unlikely (in my rational thought "box") that there is a God and Afterlife and yet I can't think of science ever really explaining the origins of the universe ie the "before" bit, you know, when there was nothing.
This is the bit that will never be explained by science, and leaves the teeniest hint of scope for something (aliens/fairy godmothers/God/whatever).
This sliver is enough to make me assert an ultimate "I don't know" rather than a definitive "I do know that there is no God", despite the serious liklihood of there not being a God AND in spite of my advocation and preference for "the scientific method".
So, an answer to the nothingness from before the somethingness is what's missing.
Anyone got the answer?
And just to add, science's true beauty is it's method, not it's current answers!
PS I sound almost religious just there, and I'm not. Honest.
PPS In case there is a God, I'm only messing, of course I believe in you Allah/Jesus/Buddha/Xenu/etc etc
In answering, I'm quoting the chap above:
"Personally, I'd have to see some sort of miracle/prophet which cannot be explained by science."
This is the exact reason I am Agnostic and not Atheist.
On balance, it seems extremely unlikely (in my rational thought "box") that there is a God and Afterlife and yet I can't think of science ever really explaining the origins of the universe ie the "before" bit, you know, when there was nothing.
This is the bit that will never be explained by science, and leaves the teeniest hint of scope for something (aliens/fairy godmothers/God/whatever).
This sliver is enough to make me assert an ultimate "I don't know" rather than a definitive "I do know that there is no God", despite the serious liklihood of there not being a God AND in spite of my advocation and preference for "the scientific method".
So, an answer to the nothingness from before the somethingness is what's missing.
Anyone got the answer?
And just to add, science's true beauty is it's method, not it's current answers!
PS I sound almost religious just there, and I'm not. Honest.
PPS In case there is a God, I'm only messing, of course I believe in you Allah/Jesus/Buddha/Xenu/etc etc
Edited by robodonkey2005 on Tuesday 20th July 17:34
Edited by robodonkey2005 on Tuesday 20th July 17:35
Written on the moon, in letters of fire a hundred miles high:
However, this is unlikely. Deities seem to specialise in being as ambiguous as possible.
God said:
CJ, do you believe in me now, you ?
That'd do it.?However, this is unlikely. Deities seem to specialise in being as ambiguous as possible.
On the other hand, peoples' reactions to God's actions are interesting. Believer: "Thank you, Lord, for not killing me in this earthquake!". God: "fking hell, I cocked that up. I'll get him next time."
king hell, I cocked that up. I'll get him next time."It would take the clouds to part, choral voices, big solid sunbeams to radiate, a bloke with a long white beard to appear and a massive finger to descend from the heavens and tap me on the back and a booming voice to say "You wouldn't have it, would you?"
Basically, I want my "road to Damascus" moment to be directed by Terry Gilliam.
Basically, I want my "road to Damascus" moment to be directed by Terry Gilliam.
CommanderJameson said:
Written on the moon, in letters of fire a hundred miles high:
It's take more than that to convince me. Letters of fire on the moon are just an engineering challenge (so is parting the Red Sea, arguably.. lol).God said:
CJ, do you believe in me now, you ?
That'd do it.?Let's look at this from the point of view of villagers 1000 years ago. They might answer with things like being able to speak to someone on the other side of the planet in realtime.. seeing realtime images of people that are in different countries, etc. All things that are trivial these days.
robodonkey2005 said:
@erdnase
But do you forsee a science in the future that is capable of answering the big question, what came before the "big bang"?
What was there before there was something?
That's the challenge that I can't see science answering, therefore I'm stuck with a healthy agnosticism.
I'm pretty sure they've had a stab at it and call it Bubble Theory? Not a physicist, happy to be corrected!But do you forsee a science in the future that is capable of answering the big question, what came before the "big bang"?
What was there before there was something?
That's the challenge that I can't see science answering, therefore I'm stuck with a healthy agnosticism.
robodonkey2005 said:
@erdnase
But do you forsee a science in the future that is capable of answering the big question, what came before the "big bang"?
I have no idea what came before the big-bang, and I don't believe anyone else does - so make room for me in your agnosticism boat! But do you forsee a science in the future that is capable of answering the big question, what came before the "big bang"?
I don't know if we will ever know, or ever be able to know either. If I had to put a wager on it I'd say that any answers or progress we make on the question will come from outward observation and experiment (science) rather than introspection, interpretations and re-reading of old documents and texts.
Back to the original question though - I still can't think of anything that would convince me to believe in a god-like diety. I think it was Arthur C Clark that said something along the lines of technology sufficiently advanced enough is indistinguishable from magic, and that applies here I think.
Villagers from 500 years ago would be unlikely to be able to distinguish between miracles and our current technology, and there's no reason to think that we could distinguish between miracles and advanced technology. Given that time travel has been shown to be a real and repeatable effect (albeit in lab conditions and at very large speeds, etc.. very removed from our day to day experiences for now anyway), I'd be more inclined to think any "miracle" I observed was down to advanced technology and time travel than supernatural means. Occams razor and all that.
Similarly, if I heard God talk to me, I'd be more inclined to suspect I was suffering from some mental illness rather than being in communication with a supernatural being. Occams razor again. Perhaps by witnessing the parting of the Red Sea, I'd just be hallucinating too. That's more likely, statistically, than it actually happening.
If a viewpoint is unfalsifiable, doesn't that make it invalid?
The more I think about this, the more my head spins
Edited by erdnase on Tuesday 20th July 18:45
I find the whole galaxy/universe/big bang theory such mind expanding stuff.
Thing is, if the universe isn't infinite, is there some sort of wall. What's the other side of the wall? If god is real, where do they live? Do THEY have a walled existence?
I can't get my head round it all so I don't even bother trying.
I'm willing to be proven wrong that there is a higher being, controlling us. But I doubt it.
Thing is, if the universe isn't infinite, is there some sort of wall. What's the other side of the wall? If god is real, where do they live? Do THEY have a walled existence?
I can't get my head round it all so I don't even bother trying.
I'm willing to be proven wrong that there is a higher being, controlling us. But I doubt it.
8400rpm said:
I can't get my head round it all so I don't even bother trying.
I'm willing to be proven wrong that there is a higher being, controlling us. But I doubt it.
Hah, sums my stance up pretty well. That said, I still love knowledge and knowing that our best minds are exploring, theorising and experimenting. We may never know the answers to the big questions, but we'll learn a load of cool stuff trying.I'm willing to be proven wrong that there is a higher being, controlling us. But I doubt it.
I was going to go into a Rumsfeld-esque monologue about known unknowns and unknow unknowns, but I reckon peoples heads are spinning enough as it is
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