Discussion
I know this one has been discussed a lot but am not far away from speccing/ordering my GTR chassis and need to nail this one. Using SBC is cheaper I know but will they fail near future emission tests? I only intend 2-3k miles a year max, and no track work at all. Want to build with highish comfort levels (where possible)Massive performance not high on list but do want a reliable engined car, and read so many horror stories with SBC which cant be all correct?
Is it much more difficult to use the LS range in terms of loom and accessories? Also I guess I could make a start and choose power later, but are there any items I need to spec early if I decide to go the LS route? Also,would you always use American Speed as I have noticed a couple of cheaper US suppliers?
Thanks in advance. Will probably be a right pain for a few years yet!!
Is it much more difficult to use the LS range in terms of loom and accessories? Also I guess I could make a start and choose power later, but are there any items I need to spec early if I decide to go the LS route? Also,would you always use American Speed as I have noticed a couple of cheaper US suppliers?
Thanks in advance. Will probably be a right pain for a few years yet!!
If you don't want to play with camshafts, ecu programming, compression ratios, etc. I think you're better of with an of the shelf EFI engine which takes into account the usage of a CAT. So this says LS based engine, or any modern engine with proper ECU.
If you don't mind playing with the items mentioned above, you can take ANY engine base.
If you want to comply to future legal emissions, you need regulated engine management so an ECU which measures the volumetric efficiency, adds fuel to that, and afterwards checks the exhaust fuellevels if it did a good job.
A closed loop management.
A CAT converter will furthermore take care of toxic gasses and unburned fuel.
You cannot reach this with a carburated engine, nor with big overlap timings of the camshaft.
If you don't mind playing with the items mentioned above, you can take ANY engine base.
If you want to comply to future legal emissions, you need regulated engine management so an ECU which measures the volumetric efficiency, adds fuel to that, and afterwards checks the exhaust fuellevels if it did a good job.
A closed loop management.
A CAT converter will furthermore take care of toxic gasses and unburned fuel.
You cannot reach this with a carburated engine, nor with big overlap timings of the camshaft.
Good answers. I do not want to play with the engine at all want it straight out of the box so to speak, not interested in really modified engine want it to run as close to stock as possible. I guess looking at it in this way it would make more sense to go the LS route albeit more expensive. Problem is if this ads 10k to build cost it all becomes less attractive. But looking at the LS range a 3 should fit the bill for my needs. I guess also this impacts on resale value should I ever need to see some cash back and sell it (which I hope I dont).
Well I have had both and have to say that I prefer the LS. Mine is stock in almost every way, headers, most of the sensors, just no Cats and a custom exhaust. I get around the 26 mpg mark uses no oil, starts first time every time on the button and at around 420bhp is more than enough for the road (well it is for me!)Might be a bit more in plumbing and electrics but I feel it was worth it. Take a look here for a bit more info....
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Graham
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Graham
^That may because the stock ecu integrates with other functions of the car though so it's simpler to retain it? I do think the stock ecu has it's limitations for high output engines as there have been a number monaro's going pop. I doubt that would have happened with something aftermarket. Also, just out of interest has a vette got several other mini ecu's and a can bus or whatever it's called?
For a stock ls I can see the attraction of a factory ecu once you've removed the settings you don't need and got a suitable harness but some other people on this forum have had big issues with the installed map so that adds to the cost. This is why I'd just go straight to something aftermarket. It is a difficult decision to make though. I'm lucky as I have both options
For a stock ls I can see the attraction of a factory ecu once you've removed the settings you don't need and got a suitable harness but some other people on this forum have had big issues with the installed map so that adds to the cost. This is why I'd just go straight to something aftermarket. It is a difficult decision to make though. I'm lucky as I have both options
Hi Barrie
A stock LS3 on Gm loom and ecu will be the cheapest way to go, ive had both (SBC and LS) and i would never go back to a SBC.
A stock LS3 with some decent headers and mapping will make 480bhp, if you fancy a ride in one give me a shout or any other owners im sure would give you a run out.
A stock LS3 on Gm loom and ecu will be the cheapest way to go, ive had both (SBC and LS) and i would never go back to a SBC.
A stock LS3 with some decent headers and mapping will make 480bhp, if you fancy a ride in one give me a shout or any other owners im sure would give you a run out.
As already said, stock 3 with good headers and a bit of intake care will give great results, even with the standard GM ECU. You could later improve this setup with a cam and some other minor mods yet still retain the stock GM electrics. You do have to be selective on upgraded parts though ......many combos wont give satisfactory results at all...big waste of brass !!
Anything more than 10-20% increase over crate ideally needs another controller as the GM unit seems to get quite involved and costly beyond this.
Good luck.
Anything more than 10-20% increase over crate ideally needs another controller as the GM unit seems to get quite involved and costly beyond this.
Good luck.
Boosted LS1 said:
^That may because the stock ecu integrates with other functions of the car though so it's simpler to retain it? I do think the stock ecu has it's limitations for high output engines as there have been a number monaro's going pop.
Many of them with superchargers and std cast internals though. LS9 runs the E67 doesn't ?It has a bit more capacity (injector wise) than the 38 and a couple of additional table features (surprise surprise). But when you have 12+ tables on the laptop all at the same time it gets tiresome for a simpleton like me.
.......Great kit for a near perfect, fully-optimized factory engine but very easily confused when you stray too far away from stock. Telling the ECU porkies or using the reversed data method to get it to perform is way too much aggro for a recent cam, carbs and points convert!!
.......Great kit for a near perfect, fully-optimized factory engine but very easily confused when you stray too far away from stock. Telling the ECU porkies or using the reversed data method to get it to perform is way too much aggro for a recent cam, carbs and points convert!!
Hi
None of those ie 1,2 or 3 will be cheap to get to 650bhp, use a stock 3 and bang on a supercharger for 640 bhp.
If you want to stay N/A with the Ls3 550bhp would be quite affordable but the extra 100 would be expensive ie upped compression ratio, expensive heads and strengthened bottom end.
What do you want 650bhp for? Its no use on the road and you would need to be Lewis Hamilton to get the benefit on the track. Ive been driving a stock LS3 powered car the last few weeks and to be honest its quick DHGTR has a stock LS2 with a hot cam with 500 bhp and that is super quick and sounds amazing!!!
On a budget i would look for a secondhand 2 and fit a hot cam, decent headers and i promise you, you will be happy with the performance. That will run fine on a Gm stock loom and ecm. I can source a decent secondhand Ls engine if you want any help?
None of those ie 1,2 or 3 will be cheap to get to 650bhp, use a stock 3 and bang on a supercharger for 640 bhp.
If you want to stay N/A with the Ls3 550bhp would be quite affordable but the extra 100 would be expensive ie upped compression ratio, expensive heads and strengthened bottom end.
What do you want 650bhp for? Its no use on the road and you would need to be Lewis Hamilton to get the benefit on the track. Ive been driving a stock LS3 powered car the last few weeks and to be honest its quick DHGTR has a stock LS2 with a hot cam with 500 bhp and that is super quick and sounds amazing!!!
On a budget i would look for a secondhand 2 and fit a hot cam, decent headers and i promise you, you will be happy with the performance. That will run fine on a Gm stock loom and ecm. I can source a decent secondhand Ls engine if you want any help?
having driven my canam loads with a well sorted high power SBC and then driven another one with a lower power well sorted SBC... then driven the same car after it had a stock LS3 Id never reccomend any sort of SBC over an LS again, the LS had all the benefits and absolutelly none of the SBC draw backs.
Hi Graham - I have read the thread and tried to get my head around all of the information, have also taken a look at your build site - really useful, thank you.
You say you are running standard headers and have therefore obviously had the exhaust fabricated to suit - my engine has headers on so is it cost effective to have custom fabricated exhausts or cheaper to buy Ultima ones ? (Think I know the answer).
Do you suffer any power losses with your fabricated ones or conversely do the Ultima ones give you any power gain ?
I would be grateful for some input from the tuning specialists here too please ...............
You say you are running standard headers and have therefore obviously had the exhaust fabricated to suit - my engine has headers on so is it cost effective to have custom fabricated exhausts or cheaper to buy Ultima ones ? (Think I know the answer).
Do you suffer any power losses with your fabricated ones or conversely do the Ultima ones give you any power gain ?
I would be grateful for some input from the tuning specialists here too please ...............
dont know about the Ultima LS headers, but when I dynod the SBC ones back to back with 'normal' headers they lost 50ftlb torque through the rev range and recoved to only be 12bhp down at top end... The ultima headers look much better though.
I had a hand in the design of grahams exhaust so Im bound to say this but its a straight through rather than trap type silencers so if anything should be better flowing although its primary goal was sound and volume and yes it is much cheaper mainly as you dont need to spend an extra 1k on the headers
I had a hand in the design of grahams exhaust so Im bound to say this but its a straight through rather than trap type silencers so if anything should be better flowing although its primary goal was sound and volume and yes it is much cheaper mainly as you dont need to spend an extra 1k on the headers
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