Discussion
hi
I need to replace the front damper bushes and rear anti roll bar bushes.
i'm thinking of getting all the bushes replaced since some of the suspension is going to be in bits anyway. Any thoughts of having the whole lot done in poly bushes? any negatives? I have SS suspension which could make the ride alittle more firmer?
Any thoughts?
Cheers NST
I need to replace the front damper bushes and rear anti roll bar bushes.
i'm thinking of getting all the bushes replaced since some of the suspension is going to be in bits anyway. Any thoughts of having the whole lot done in poly bushes? any negatives? I have SS suspension which could make the ride alittle more firmer?
Any thoughts?
Cheers NST
I have had Polly's fitted to my car, yes they are far better and don't give to firm a ride
BUT you will need the susspention reset to take them into account
Myself and my machanic have spent many hours getting the correct settings
So I suggest giving him a ring, getting him to fit and adjust for the best handing
Contact TLJaguar on 0118-976-2899
Post code RG40 4TS
BUT you will need the susspention reset to take them into account
Myself and my machanic have spent many hours getting the correct settings
So I suggest giving him a ring, getting him to fit and adjust for the best handing
Contact TLJaguar on 0118-976-2899
Post code RG40 4TS
Oi,you phoned me up for the base settings, cause neither of you had a f
king clue where to start on your car. Hours with your mechanic? about 15 minutes on the phone if I remember.
I have an irate client here whom has driven from a certain workshop close to your heart Norm,no sour grapes but 1500 miles have scrubbed the inside tread out on his X type, shortly after a geometry re set. This is not good for the the paying public.
king clue where to start on your car. Hours with your mechanic? about 15 minutes on the phone if I remember. I have an irate client here whom has driven from a certain workshop close to your heart Norm,no sour grapes but 1500 miles have scrubbed the inside tread out on his X type, shortly after a geometry re set. This is not good for the the paying public.
The term `Professional` can mean a white collar worker who operates commercially in a field reserved for hobbyists.There is also a certain moral obligation for `professionals` to act in a responsible ethical manner, to the public and to each other.
So who are these two individuals hobbyists, professionals or what ??
An acknowledgement of our conversation Norm would have been courteous.I rest my case on that one.
Re poly bushes.
I have infact changed many back to standard bushes on XKs XJs etc. Pink , black or yellow, they are manufactured far too big , so when clamped they can either creak,or break up. A classic case of `professional hobbyists` confirming they know better the Jaguar designers.
Ho Hum, back to work
So who are these two individuals hobbyists, professionals or what ??
An acknowledgement of our conversation Norm would have been courteous.I rest my case on that one.
Re poly bushes.
I have infact changed many back to standard bushes on XKs XJs etc. Pink , black or yellow, they are manufactured far too big , so when clamped they can either creak,or break up. A classic case of `professional hobbyists` confirming they know better the Jaguar designers.
Ho Hum, back to work
RW774 said:
Oi,you phoned me up for the base settings, cause neither of you had a fking clue where to start on your car. Hours with your mechanic? about 15 minutes on the phone if I remember.
I have an irate client here whom has driven from a certain workshop close to your heart Norm,no sour grapes but 1500 miles have scrubbed the inside tread out on his X type, shortly after a geometry re set. This is not good for the the paying public.
king clue where to start on your car. Hours with your mechanic? about 15 minutes on the phone if I remember. I have an irate client here whom has driven from a certain workshop close to your heart Norm,no sour grapes but 1500 miles have scrubbed the inside tread out on his X type, shortly after a geometry re set. This is not good for the the paying public.
RW774 said:
An acknowledgement of our conversation Norm would have been courteous.I rest my case on that one.
First, yes I did speak to you (in reply to another Thread) and thank you for your time, but if you remember I did say that was something like the settings I was thinking of. I like to get expert opinions from others at times. This did give me a basis then to fine tune to my liking.
This was after having different springs and damper fitted by another company who didn't set up as I felt they should be
Referring to your second Post above, I am not on PistonHeads 24/7 and needed to get some facts regarding your second paragraph on your first Post above.
I have spoken to Tom, I think you should get the owner of the X-Type to tell you the truth what he had done and more like what he DIDN'T want want Tom to do.
Just to clarify my working arrangements with TLJaguar
I employ him to look after my car, the same as I use to use HAFox at Guildford then Racing Green Cars at Ash Vale.
He does a job for me like getting me out of the Sh*t when I had a problem in France and last year when someone smashed into my car.
He then makes out a bill that is duly paid out of my ill got gains
As most of you know yes we have an arrangment on the Quaife Diff's that is because I wanted one for my car, Quaife didn't make them but agreed that they would if a batch could be made. So I put my money where my mouth was. In that respect I want a return for my money, that is just good business
Thankyou for the response Norm , I receieved a call from Tom yesterday and I have put those comments to the owner. The failure of 4 rear tyres later, the client DID have a 4 wheel alignment check after the 2nd set, based on advice recieved from Tom.I checked it here and it was outside manufacturers spec.Outsourced because TL, DID NOT have the equipment to do it.
In my opinion you should NOT be stating TL is capable of 4 wheel aligment tasks,
A/ If he does not have the equipment,
B/ He out-sources his 4 wheel aligment.
C/Nothing wrong with B,except you are at the mercy of whoever works the out-sourced task, skilled or unskilled. The public should be made aware of outsource, because you personally accept responsibility for outsourced work,
whatever good service TL provides, he must accept that fact, as we all have to.It didn`t work for the X type client as he states the advice occurred after the 2nd set of tyres.
With respect Norm, you outsourced your own aligment to another company after consulting with me for settings, your choice of course, but it wasn`t TL who did the work, right( para A)? I offered you the chance of booking through me for corner weighting, castor and camber and aligment, but the cost was too prohibitive as I understand it. All what was required of me were base settings, so you could go elsewhere, your choice of course but I refer you to para C .
My point re the poly bushes in my last posting. Hobbyist `Profesionals`.
Poly bushes for the XK and XJ and bloody ,awful no question.I have to change a set back to standard soon. Yet another set.They are manufactured too big, foul their mounting points and growl, creak and upset the handling with their non compliance and seizure antics.Thats` my experience i`m happy to share it.
We don`t reccommend poly and neither do Jaguar.
In my opinion you should NOT be stating TL is capable of 4 wheel aligment tasks,
A/ If he does not have the equipment,
B/ He out-sources his 4 wheel aligment.
C/Nothing wrong with B,except you are at the mercy of whoever works the out-sourced task, skilled or unskilled. The public should be made aware of outsource, because you personally accept responsibility for outsourced work,
whatever good service TL provides, he must accept that fact, as we all have to.It didn`t work for the X type client as he states the advice occurred after the 2nd set of tyres.
With respect Norm, you outsourced your own aligment to another company after consulting with me for settings, your choice of course, but it wasn`t TL who did the work, right( para A)? I offered you the chance of booking through me for corner weighting, castor and camber and aligment, but the cost was too prohibitive as I understand it. All what was required of me were base settings, so you could go elsewhere, your choice of course but I refer you to para C .
My point re the poly bushes in my last posting. Hobbyist `Profesionals`.
Poly bushes for the XK and XJ and bloody ,awful no question.I have to change a set back to standard soon. Yet another set.They are manufactured too big, foul their mounting points and growl, creak and upset the handling with their non compliance and seizure antics.Thats` my experience i`m happy to share it.
We don`t reccommend poly and neither do Jaguar.
I would not be so harsh on polybushes.....(I can tell RW does not like them, I think he hinted a bit in that direction lol)
I have seen them fail though but through poor manufacture of the material not the design of the bush itself.
If they were that bad all these companies such as Powerflex, Superflex and the such like would not be in business and the majority of high performance/ high end cars would not use them.
I have fitted them many times to plenty of XKs and a few XJs and none have wanted them removed even after 1 XK front lower wishbone failed dramatically and a XJ had an issue.
According to the manufacturer polybushes are a direct replacement and no resetting of the suspension is necessary....Hmmmmmmm....Not sure I would agree with that entirely. I do check the tracking and if that is good then away we go. I do not have the means to check the camber and I do suggest it is an idea to get this done at some point. I do make sure all the shims removed go back in exactly the same place.
Most people like to go the polybush route, yes they stiffen things up a little and the car feels a bit more taut and if you beleive the manufacturers will far out live the standard rubber bushes.....You pays your money you make your choice.
Just my opinion
I have seen them fail though but through poor manufacture of the material not the design of the bush itself.
If they were that bad all these companies such as Powerflex, Superflex and the such like would not be in business and the majority of high performance/ high end cars would not use them.
I have fitted them many times to plenty of XKs and a few XJs and none have wanted them removed even after 1 XK front lower wishbone failed dramatically and a XJ had an issue.
According to the manufacturer polybushes are a direct replacement and no resetting of the suspension is necessary....Hmmmmmmm....Not sure I would agree with that entirely. I do check the tracking and if that is good then away we go. I do not have the means to check the camber and I do suggest it is an idea to get this done at some point. I do make sure all the shims removed go back in exactly the same place.
Most people like to go the polybush route, yes they stiffen things up a little and the car feels a bit more taut and if you beleive the manufacturers will far out live the standard rubber bushes.....You pays your money you make your choice.
Just my opinion
There is another aspect to the use of Poly Bushes which discourages me from putting them on my XK8, and that is the transmission of vibration.
The bushes are all that separates much of the vehicle from road induced vibrations – which as we all know are getting worse as a consequence of the parlous state of most British road surfaces.
All the descriptions of the after-market bushes that I have read suggest that the bushes are to some degree physically ‘harder’ than standard.
(I’ve used the word “harder” in the generic sense as I’m not a materials scientist – but I hope the meaning is clear)
By my understanding a ‘harder’ material will transmit more vibration, therefore the vehicle will not be as isolated as it was when fitted with Original Equipment bushes.
Thus it seems to me that the vehicle will be subjected to a greater level of vibration and therefore a greater level of fatigue.
(Whether the human body can sense this is immaterial to whether it has a mechanical effect.)
My background is in the aerospace industry so it may be that I am professionally paranoid about such things, but please hear me out.
Unlike the possibly over-engineered cars of yesterday, today’s cars are designed down to a price: thinnest metal, fewest welds, finite service life, ‘acceptable’ failure rate, etc.
I assume that the major manufacturers carry out some form of accelerated life testing that proves the through-life robustness of the vehicle design when subjected to typical drive and usage cycles.
Now from the point of view of someone (not me) who always sells their car before it reaches three years old there is little to worry about in altering the car away from standard, but for anyone who intends to keep the vehicle long-term (as I do with my Jag) I wonder whether there might be a fatigue failure issue to consider….?
I have spoken to the manufacturers of said bushes and never received a convincing reply to this issue, so I’m intrigued to hear the opinions of fellow PHs.
The bushes are all that separates much of the vehicle from road induced vibrations – which as we all know are getting worse as a consequence of the parlous state of most British road surfaces.
All the descriptions of the after-market bushes that I have read suggest that the bushes are to some degree physically ‘harder’ than standard.
(I’ve used the word “harder” in the generic sense as I’m not a materials scientist – but I hope the meaning is clear)
By my understanding a ‘harder’ material will transmit more vibration, therefore the vehicle will not be as isolated as it was when fitted with Original Equipment bushes.
Thus it seems to me that the vehicle will be subjected to a greater level of vibration and therefore a greater level of fatigue.
(Whether the human body can sense this is immaterial to whether it has a mechanical effect.)
My background is in the aerospace industry so it may be that I am professionally paranoid about such things, but please hear me out.
Unlike the possibly over-engineered cars of yesterday, today’s cars are designed down to a price: thinnest metal, fewest welds, finite service life, ‘acceptable’ failure rate, etc.
I assume that the major manufacturers carry out some form of accelerated life testing that proves the through-life robustness of the vehicle design when subjected to typical drive and usage cycles.
Now from the point of view of someone (not me) who always sells their car before it reaches three years old there is little to worry about in altering the car away from standard, but for anyone who intends to keep the vehicle long-term (as I do with my Jag) I wonder whether there might be a fatigue failure issue to consider….?
I have spoken to the manufacturers of said bushes and never received a convincing reply to this issue, so I’m intrigued to hear the opinions of fellow PHs.
I have a much simpler reason for using the standard bushes. I bought a Jag for comfort and the legendary ride these cars are known for, ok it might only be a 15 year old XJ, but it's head and shoulders above any BMW, Merc or anything else i have driven. I don't really want better handling or more feedback etc, if i did i'd buy a sports car. I know how dependant on bushes these cars are, because when some went in my car the ride suffered greatly, these have been replaced by myself at very little cost and now it's back to normal.
I would agree if you want to keep the comfort ride then definately stick with OE bushes.
As wether or not fatigue could set in because of firmer bushes........I would not of thought so and even if it did it would be negligible. I would not worry about it.
I am keeping standard bushes in my road car and fitting 95 shear to my track car if that tells you anything.
As wether or not fatigue could set in because of firmer bushes........I would not of thought so and even if it did it would be negligible. I would not worry about it.
I am keeping standard bushes in my road car and fitting 95 shear to my track car if that tells you anything.
Zulu 10 said:
By my understanding a ‘harder’ material will transmit more vibration, therefore the vehicle will not be as isolated as it was when fitted with Original Equipment bushes.
Is the recommendation of a glossy magazine advert along with various forum "advice" going to yield better results than tens of man years development effort by a team of highly experienced professional engineers? I think not.From what I've seen of polybushes they are harder (therefore more noises) also the ones people fit to wishbones lack the metal sleeves seen on the OE bushes, this will result in wear to the bush as the wishbone pivots, which in turn will mean reduced life. For a track car this hardly matters as you'd replace bushes every season anyway, but its a big issue in a road car.
robgee1964 said:
Is the recommendation of a glossy magazine advert along with various forum "advice" going to yield better results than tens of man years development effort by a team of highly experienced professional engineers? I think not.
From what I've seen of polybushes they are harder (therefore more noises) also the ones people fit to wishbones lack the metal sleeves seen on the OE bushes, this will result in wear to the bush as the wishbone pivots, which in turn will mean reduced life. For a track car this hardly matters as you'd replace bushes every season anyway, but its a big issue in a road car.
Have to disagree with you there......Firstly most manufacturers want there cars to be compfortable and dont want them to have a too firmer ride (especially jaguars) so fit rubber, also rubber is very much cheaper to produce.From what I've seen of polybushes they are harder (therefore more noises) also the ones people fit to wishbones lack the metal sleeves seen on the OE bushes, this will result in wear to the bush as the wishbone pivots, which in turn will mean reduced life. For a track car this hardly matters as you'd replace bushes every season anyway, but its a big issue in a road car.
All polybushes come with metal sleeves and a much more substantial sleeve than the OE.
I think some people are missing the point of polybushes, they are not meant as a replacement item because they last longer. The idea is they give you more feel, they try to stop your car/Jag/whatever acting like a wallowey ole bus going around corners at a slightly brisker rate than some might do.
If you want a slow comfortable ride and don't want to go around corners like you are on rails, don't fit them. Quite a few owners that do also take there Jags on the track, there are many reasons to fit poly and many reasons not to!
XKRacer said:
If you want a slow comfortable ride and don't want to go around corners like you are on rails, don't fit them.
I think spring and damper changes might also be required to go from "slow and comfortable" to "corning on rails".To be honest if thats what people want why not buy a proper sports car?
robgee1964 said:
XKRacer said:
If you want a slow comfortable ride and don't want to go around corners like you are on rails, don't fit them.
I think spring and damper changes might also be required to go from "slow and comfortable" to "corning on rails".To be honest if thats what people want why not buy a proper sports car?
i'm not sure which jags you lot drive(!), my XKR has far less pitch/dive/roll than my Saab with 18in alloys and 'saab road holding kit and hirsch springs' when pressing on. the only negative aspect to the jag is the slightly disconnected (lose?) feeling from the rear. To my surprise the Jag can be thrown around on country lanes quite well. I do find that the CATS suspension does a good job of keeping the body roll in check only once the driver starts to throw the car around.. otherwise it all feels alittle bit boat like.
All I need to do is figure out how the rear can be tightened up and soak up mid corners bumps alittle better.
NST
All I need to do is figure out how the rear can be tightened up and soak up mid corners bumps alittle better.
NST
pete5570 said:
Carn't see poly bushes changing a Jag to something that corners on rails!! It's never gonna be a Golf GTI is it?
Nope unless someone has really screwed the suspension settings then it is never going to understeer like that and the back end is much more controlled. 
Two of my most scary car moments have been in Golf GTIs.
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