Mercedes C63 AMG vs ML63 AMG
Discussion
Hi, im after a 6.3L of some sort, and the ML and C are most tempting.
I know that the ML has more power (500bhp+) but not quite the pace of the C63(450bhp ish).
But if the C63 is a detuned version of the same engine as the ML or even the SLS, how easy is it to get the extra power out of the C?
Is is a simply a software update?
And who could do so?
Aslo which sounds best ML63 AMG or C63 AMG?
I know that the ML has more power (500bhp+) but not quite the pace of the C63(450bhp ish).
But if the C63 is a detuned version of the same engine as the ML or even the SLS, how easy is it to get the extra power out of the C?
Is is a simply a software update?
And who could do so?
Aslo which sounds best ML63 AMG or C63 AMG?
It's very easy to remove the detuning with a simple remap. Most of the main players in the Mercedes tuning world offer upgrades - Kircherer, Brabus, Carlsson, Kleemann and DMS Automotive, RENNTech all can add around 70bhp to the C63 with a simple remap, but most off their exhaust systems and air filters, giving a genuine 100bhp increase.
Remapping, exhaust and air filter upgrades will also increase power in an ML, too.
It might be worth noting that the SLS AMG engine is rather different to the stanard 6.2 V8 offered in '63 engines. So much so, that the SLS engine has it's own engine designation number (M159), as opposed to the M156 designation for the standard engine
HTH,
Darren
Remapping, exhaust and air filter upgrades will also increase power in an ML, too.
It might be worth noting that the SLS AMG engine is rather different to the stanard 6.2 V8 offered in '63 engines. So much so, that the SLS engine has it's own engine designation number (M159), as opposed to the M156 designation for the standard engine
HTH,
Darren
Edited by iluvmercs on Wednesday 28th July 14:04
iluvmercs said:
It's very easy to remove the detuning with a simple remap. Most of the main players in the Mercedes tuning world offer upgrades - Kircherer, Brabus, Carlsson, Kleemann and DMS Automotive, RENNTech all can add around 70bhp to the C63 with a simple remap, but most off their exhaust systems and air filters, giving a genuine 100bhp increase.
Remapping, exhaust and air filter upgrades will also increase power in an ML, too.
It might be worth noting that the SLS AMG engine is rather different to the stanard 6.2 V8 offered in '63 engines. So much so, that the SLS engine has it's own engine designation number (M159), as opposed to the M156 designation for the standard engine
HTH,
Darren
Nice, I just gave DMS a call and they too agree that 70bhp gains can be achieved just with software!! nuts! Remapping, exhaust and air filter upgrades will also increase power in an ML, too.
It might be worth noting that the SLS AMG engine is rather different to the stanard 6.2 V8 offered in '63 engines. So much so, that the SLS engine has it's own engine designation number (M159), as opposed to the M156 designation for the standard engine
HTH,
Darren
Edited by iluvmercs on Wednesday 28th July 14:04
who else offers tuning in the UK?
Brabus upgrades are now offered through most (if not all) Mercedes Dealers.
Carlsson and Kleemann have a UK agents, which can be found on their websites, hyper-linked above.
Kircherer and RENNTech have no UK agents.
ETA: DMS upgrades are (so I've heard) very good for price vs. performance. They also "remap" the gearbox to the shift patterns of the CLK Black Series. Whatever C63 you plan to get, I understand the ones to go for must have the LSD. If not present, Brabus and Kleemann offer LSDs, and I'm sure AMG will retro-fit one, but obviously for a cost
Darren
Carlsson and Kleemann have a UK agents, which can be found on their websites, hyper-linked above.
Kircherer and RENNTech have no UK agents.
ETA: DMS upgrades are (so I've heard) very good for price vs. performance. They also "remap" the gearbox to the shift patterns of the CLK Black Series. Whatever C63 you plan to get, I understand the ones to go for must have the LSD. If not present, Brabus and Kleemann offer LSDs, and I'm sure AMG will retro-fit one, but obviously for a cost
Darren
Edited by iluvmercs on Wednesday 28th July 15:17
My car is a Performance Pack Plus which is more powerful than a standard C63 - MB quote 487bhp instead of the usual 451bhp but in fact, I had it dyno'd last week and it put out 507bhp!
Car Planet Racing who did the dyno and have a lot of expereince with AMG's (as they're the UK's northern Kleeman dealer) said it was the most powerful stock '63 engine they'd tested. The PPP has lightweight forged pistons, new conrods and a lightweight crankshaft...all taken from the SLS engine so it's got quite a few important (and effective) changes over the standard engine.
So, if you do choose to get a C63, try and get a PPP if it's within your budget!
The reason I had it dyno'd is that I was on my way to have the Brabus B63 kit fitted by Mercedes of Milton Keynes - the first C63 to have this in the UK I believe.
I'm not sure what the gains will be over such a strong base line but my butt-dyno has detected even stronger thrust, especially at the top end.
I'm having it dyno'd again on Saturday to see what the gains have been and will post up the before and after graphs.
The Brabus kit is by far the most expensive option but it is Mercedes approved and does not affect warranty. You also get new air filters in with the price but this is scant compenastion for the costy of it! However, the Brabus tune is the only ECU upgrade that is done throught the diagnostics port - all the other companies have to modify the ECU itself for some reason.
If the Brabus option is too expensive then I would recommend the Kleeman K1 over any other option available in the UK. Kleeman have more knowledge of tuning this engine than pretty much anyone else and the guys on the US forums swear by it as being a reliable and effective tune.
Car Planet Racing who did the dyno and have a lot of expereince with AMG's (as they're the UK's northern Kleeman dealer) said it was the most powerful stock '63 engine they'd tested. The PPP has lightweight forged pistons, new conrods and a lightweight crankshaft...all taken from the SLS engine so it's got quite a few important (and effective) changes over the standard engine.
So, if you do choose to get a C63, try and get a PPP if it's within your budget!
The reason I had it dyno'd is that I was on my way to have the Brabus B63 kit fitted by Mercedes of Milton Keynes - the first C63 to have this in the UK I believe.
I'm not sure what the gains will be over such a strong base line but my butt-dyno has detected even stronger thrust, especially at the top end.
I'm having it dyno'd again on Saturday to see what the gains have been and will post up the before and after graphs.
The Brabus kit is by far the most expensive option but it is Mercedes approved and does not affect warranty. You also get new air filters in with the price but this is scant compenastion for the costy of it! However, the Brabus tune is the only ECU upgrade that is done throught the diagnostics port - all the other companies have to modify the ECU itself for some reason.
If the Brabus option is too expensive then I would recommend the Kleeman K1 over any other option available in the UK. Kleeman have more knowledge of tuning this engine than pretty much anyone else and the guys on the US forums swear by it as being a reliable and effective tune.
Palmball said:
My car is a Performance Pack Plus which is more powerful than a standard C63 - MB quote 487bhp instead of the usual 451bhp but in fact, I had it dyno'd last week and it put out 507bhp!
Car Planet Racing who did the dyno and have a lot of expereince with AMG's (as they're the UK's northern Kleeman dealer) said it was the most powerful stock '63 engine they'd tested. The PPP has lightweight forged pistons, new conrods and a lightweight crankshaft...all taken from the SLS engine so it's got quite a few important (and effective) changes over the standard engine.
So, if you do choose to get a C63, try and get a PPP if it's within your budget!
The reason I had it dyno'd is that I was on my way to have the Brabus B63 kit fitted by Mercedes of Milton Keynes - the first C63 to have this in the UK I believe.
I'm not sure what the gains will be over such a strong base line but my butt-dyno has detected even stronger thrust, especially at the top end.
I'm having it dyno'd again on Saturday to see what the gains have been and will post up the before and after graphs.
The Brabus kit is by far the most expensive option but it is Mercedes approved and does not affect warranty. You also get new air filters in with the price but this is scant compenastion for the costy of it! However, the Brabus tune is the only ECU upgrade that is done throught the diagnostics port - all the other companies have to modify the ECU itself for some reason.
If the Brabus option is too expensive then I would recommend the Kleeman K1 over any other option available in the UK. Kleeman have more knowledge of tuning this engine than pretty much anyone else and the guys on the US forums swear by it as being a reliable and effective tune.
What kind of price are we talking for the Barabus upgrade?Car Planet Racing who did the dyno and have a lot of expereince with AMG's (as they're the UK's northern Kleeman dealer) said it was the most powerful stock '63 engine they'd tested. The PPP has lightweight forged pistons, new conrods and a lightweight crankshaft...all taken from the SLS engine so it's got quite a few important (and effective) changes over the standard engine.
So, if you do choose to get a C63, try and get a PPP if it's within your budget!
The reason I had it dyno'd is that I was on my way to have the Brabus B63 kit fitted by Mercedes of Milton Keynes - the first C63 to have this in the UK I believe.
I'm not sure what the gains will be over such a strong base line but my butt-dyno has detected even stronger thrust, especially at the top end.
I'm having it dyno'd again on Saturday to see what the gains have been and will post up the before and after graphs.
The Brabus kit is by far the most expensive option but it is Mercedes approved and does not affect warranty. You also get new air filters in with the price but this is scant compenastion for the costy of it! However, the Brabus tune is the only ECU upgrade that is done throught the diagnostics port - all the other companies have to modify the ECU itself for some reason.
If the Brabus option is too expensive then I would recommend the Kleeman K1 over any other option available in the UK. Kleeman have more knowledge of tuning this engine than pretty much anyone else and the guys on the US forums swear by it as being a reliable and effective tune.
carter711 said:
Why would you get an ML 
because:(needs sound)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2jrC9bl75k
I have family to fit in, and the c63 is pushing the budget, whereas the ML63 is now sub 40K...
Maybe that would be an error, but i dont know yet.
tomvcarter said:
What kind of price are we talking for the Barabus upgrade?
Stupid money TBH - it was a touch over £5k and that was with a discount!In all seriousness, you'd not do this unless, like me, you really wanted to increase the performance and are also totally obsessed about keeping the car as 'original' as possible (the Brabus by all accounts is as 'official' as it gets!). In my case, the Brabus kit is part of a much larger project to improve the C63 in areas where it is less than perfect and keep it as close to using original MB parts as possible (some of which I have documented already, in particular the interior).
Hence the reason I suggested the Kleeman which is priced at about the going rate for tunes on this type of car(£1,500 ish).
I actually understand why you'd consider the ML - I think the AMG version is very nice indeed and you still get that stonking engine. It is in it'smost tuneful state in a C63 however...AMG seem to have engineered a much naughtier exhaust note in the smaller car!
Edited by Palmball on Wednesday 28th July 17:45
Edited by Palmball on Wednesday 28th July 17:45
Interesting that I see you currently have an e92 M3 - I too came out of one of these and don't regret it one bit.
The AMG is so much quicker in a straight line but please...if you go for a C63 and it's pre-2010, spend the little bit extra and get yourself a Performance Pack (PP) as this has a LSD and makes the car a genuine M3 challenger dynamically. Pre-2010 models are available in standard and PP versions and all PP version have the LSD, composite front brakes, stiffer suspension and alcantara steering wheel.
2010-on model are available in standard and Performance Pack Plus (PPP). The PPP has more power with the engine mods I described before, the composite brakes and the alcantara steering wheel. It does not have the stiffer suspension (no longer available much to my annoyance!) and the LSD is extra on top of the PPP option so be careful if you buy a used 2010 model and want the LSD...it has to be listed as a seperate option!
The AMG is so much quicker in a straight line but please...if you go for a C63 and it's pre-2010, spend the little bit extra and get yourself a Performance Pack (PP) as this has a LSD and makes the car a genuine M3 challenger dynamically. Pre-2010 models are available in standard and PP versions and all PP version have the LSD, composite front brakes, stiffer suspension and alcantara steering wheel.
2010-on model are available in standard and Performance Pack Plus (PPP). The PPP has more power with the engine mods I described before, the composite brakes and the alcantara steering wheel. It does not have the stiffer suspension (no longer available much to my annoyance!) and the LSD is extra on top of the PPP option so be careful if you buy a used 2010 model and want the LSD...it has to be listed as a seperate option!
I agree with you there, I prefer to stay with OEM upgrades as far as possible.
Is the sound really that different between the ML and the C? it's important to me, but was wondering if the ML can have an exhaust fitted to match/out do the C?..
.
In all seriousness, you'd not do this unless, like me, you really wanted to increase the performance and are also totally obsessed about keeping the car as 'original' as possible (the Brabus by all accounts is as 'official' as it gets!). In my case, the Brabus kit is part of a much larger project to improve the C63 in areas where it is less than perfect and keep it as close to using original MB parts as possible (some of which I have documented already, in particular the interior).
Hence the reason I suggested the Kleeman which is priced at about the going rate for tunes on this type of car(£1,500 ish).
I actually understand why you'd consider the ML - I think the AMG version is very nice indeed and you still get that stonking engine. It is in it'smost tuneful state in a C63 however...AMG seem to have engineered a much naughtier exhaust note in the smaller car!
Is the sound really that different between the ML and the C? it's important to me, but was wondering if the ML can have an exhaust fitted to match/out do the C?..
.
Palmball said:
tomvcarter said:
What kind of price are we talking for the Barabus upgrade?
Stupid money TBH - it was a touch over £5k and that was with a discount!In all seriousness, you'd not do this unless, like me, you really wanted to increase the performance and are also totally obsessed about keeping the car as 'original' as possible (the Brabus by all accounts is as 'official' as it gets!). In my case, the Brabus kit is part of a much larger project to improve the C63 in areas where it is less than perfect and keep it as close to using original MB parts as possible (some of which I have documented already, in particular the interior).
Hence the reason I suggested the Kleeman which is priced at about the going rate for tunes on this type of car(£1,500 ish).
I actually understand why you'd consider the ML - I think the AMG version is very nice indeed and you still get that stonking engine. It is in it'smost tuneful state in a C63 however...AMG seem to have engineered a much naughtier exhaust note in the smaller car!
Edited by Palmball on Wednesday 28th July 17:45
Edited by Palmball on Wednesday 28th July 17:45
Still in love with the M3 as it's a stunning car, but the need for 4 doors, and after 18 months in the M3 , it's time for a change, and the sound of the 6.3 just can't be matched.
Only concern I the depreciation of the Merc. I have only really taken a 5k hit on the M3 since I got it (£35,000 12/08, now worth c£30k) which is pretty good. The C63 seems to have retained it's value very well so far, but as with other mercs eh C55 etc they dropped like a stone at some point. So don't want to pick one up for c£40k ad find it's work 30 a year later as I might as well stuck with the M3 and loose 2...
Opinions?
Pp for sure I I can afford it.
Only concern I the depreciation of the Merc. I have only really taken a 5k hit on the M3 since I got it (£35,000 12/08, now worth c£30k) which is pretty good. The C63 seems to have retained it's value very well so far, but as with other mercs eh C55 etc they dropped like a stone at some point. So don't want to pick one up for c£40k ad find it's work 30 a year later as I might as well stuck with the M3 and loose 2...
Opinions?
Pp for sure I I can afford it.
Palmball said:
Interesting that I see you currently have an e92 M3 - I too came out of one of these and don't regret it one bit.
The AMG is so much quicker in a straight line but please...if you go for a C63 and it's pre-2010, spend the little bit extra and get yourself a Performance Pack (PP) as this has a LSD and makes the car a genuine M3 challenger dynamically. Pre-2010 models are available in standard and PP versions and all PP version have the LSD, composite front brakes, stiffer suspension and alcantara steering wheel.
2010-on model are available in standard and Performance Pack Plus (PPP). The PPP has more power with the engine mods I described before, the composite brakes and the alcantara steering wheel. It does not have the stiffer suspension (no longer available much to my annoyance!) and the LSD is extra on top of the PPP option so be careful if you buy a used 2010 model and want the LSD...it has to be listed as a seperate option!
The AMG is so much quicker in a straight line but please...if you go for a C63 and it's pre-2010, spend the little bit extra and get yourself a Performance Pack (PP) as this has a LSD and makes the car a genuine M3 challenger dynamically. Pre-2010 models are available in standard and PP versions and all PP version have the LSD, composite front brakes, stiffer suspension and alcantara steering wheel.
2010-on model are available in standard and Performance Pack Plus (PPP). The PPP has more power with the engine mods I described before, the composite brakes and the alcantara steering wheel. It does not have the stiffer suspension (no longer available much to my annoyance!) and the LSD is extra on top of the PPP option so be careful if you buy a used 2010 model and want the LSD...it has to be listed as a seperate option!
The C63 does appear to be holding onto it's value very well - two years on and even the earliest ones can still command £8k more than an equivalent M3 and they have a similar starting price. This was never the case wit the C55 IIRC...they dropped almost straight away.
I got my M3 when it was just released and as such paid full list for a fully spec'd model - and as I sold it a year later I lost c. £15k (swapped it for an M6....not the best move I've got to admit and that only lasted 6 months)...money mixed with cars = not my strong point!
In comparison, I bought a 2009 C63 PP this time last year and it held it's value very well; I barely lost anything in the 6 months I owned it before I ordered my new (current) one which I intend to keep for rather longer than my last few cars!
The ML still sounds lovely with the same sound and tone but it's just not as loud - it's a bigger more refined car. For your needs, how about a C63 estate - these really do hold their money well and are a bit more exclusive too (helped by no M3 equivalent)?
I got my M3 when it was just released and as such paid full list for a fully spec'd model - and as I sold it a year later I lost c. £15k (swapped it for an M6....not the best move I've got to admit and that only lasted 6 months)...money mixed with cars = not my strong point!
In comparison, I bought a 2009 C63 PP this time last year and it held it's value very well; I barely lost anything in the 6 months I owned it before I ordered my new (current) one which I intend to keep for rather longer than my last few cars!
The ML still sounds lovely with the same sound and tone but it's just not as loud - it's a bigger more refined car. For your needs, how about a C63 estate - these really do hold their money well and are a bit more exclusive too (helped by no M3 equivalent)?
Exactly, it's re estate that I'm after. I even prefer the look... (same with the RS4). Only problem is there don't appear to be any about, near the 40k mark especially with the PP! Let me know if you see one!
Going to drive an ML over the weekend as I have done a C63 already. Imagine the ML will depreciate even faster...
Nighare trying to get a test drive merc customer services are awful!!
Going to drive an ML over the weekend as I have done a C63 already. Imagine the ML will depreciate even faster...
Nighare trying to get a test drive merc customer services are awful!!
they are both amazing cars the ml is a beast one of the best cars i had i think you should be able to get one for about 37-38k.
handling is amazing for such a big car.you can get the resonators or the muffelers taken off the back of the exhaust to give it a better sound.
the c63 is just as amazing as the ml63 and sounds even better 1 of the best sounding cars out there,i once raced my friend who was driving the ml63 and me in the c63 with pp and i cud'nt even get close to him the 4 wheel drive is realy good they should do it on all amgs.
i agree with palmball that the suspension on the pp is a lot better than the one on the ppp a realy good set up.
the only thing i would say is that the ml63 is looking a bit old now but the facelift ones are still strong money they look stunning, were as the c63 still looks new if that makes sense.
which ever one you choose i dont think you will be dissapointed with either.
handling is amazing for such a big car.you can get the resonators or the muffelers taken off the back of the exhaust to give it a better sound.
the c63 is just as amazing as the ml63 and sounds even better 1 of the best sounding cars out there,i once raced my friend who was driving the ml63 and me in the c63 with pp and i cud'nt even get close to him the 4 wheel drive is realy good they should do it on all amgs.
i agree with palmball that the suspension on the pp is a lot better than the one on the ppp a realy good set up.
the only thing i would say is that the ml63 is looking a bit old now but the facelift ones are still strong money they look stunning, were as the c63 still looks new if that makes sense.
which ever one you choose i dont think you will be dissapointed with either.
amg master said:
they are both amazing cars the ml is a beast one of the best cars i had i think you should be able to get one for about 37-38k.
handling is amazing for such a big car.you can get the resonators or the muffelers taken off the back of the exhaust to give it a better sound.
the c63 is just as amazing as the ml63 and sounds even better 1 of the best sounding cars out there,i once raced my friend who was driving the ml63 and me in the c63 with pp and i cud'nt even get close to him the 4 wheel drive is realy good they should do it on all amgs.
i agree with palmball that the suspension on the pp is a lot better than the one on the ppp a realy good set up.
the only thing i would say is that the ml63 is looking a bit old now but the facelift ones are still strong money they look stunning, were as the c63 still looks new if that makes sense.
which ever one you choose i dont think you will be dissapointed with either.
testing an ML tonight handling is amazing for such a big car.you can get the resonators or the muffelers taken off the back of the exhaust to give it a better sound.
the c63 is just as amazing as the ml63 and sounds even better 1 of the best sounding cars out there,i once raced my friend who was driving the ml63 and me in the c63 with pp and i cud'nt even get close to him the 4 wheel drive is realy good they should do it on all amgs.
i agree with palmball that the suspension on the pp is a lot better than the one on the ppp a realy good set up.
the only thing i would say is that the ml63 is looking a bit old now but the facelift ones are still strong money they look stunning, were as the c63 still looks new if that makes sense.
which ever one you choose i dont think you will be dissapointed with either.
khooni said:
I am looking at this option as I have a PP 2009 model. The idea that I don't get WOT on the engine just irks me. I wonder if DMS is the way to go on this for just asimple re-flash of the ECU. ANyone enquired on the price yet?
I called DMS and its c £1500 for the flash, looks like a good idea in my opinion. But the Barabus name really looks nice...Gassing Station | Mercedes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff