getting 'beaten' by someone in a boring econobox
Discussion
sometimes it goes the other way...
every now again it is good to be humbled and realise that talent is very much relative.
Let me set the scene, although I live down south these days I have family in both Otterburn (north of Newcastle) and Edinburgh. Between these roads lie the twists and turns of the A68. In particular the section from Otterburn to the boarder and the bit beyond is mucho fun with only a few of cameras once you are in Scotland.
Over the years i've driven this road in all sorts of cars and many, many times. Had arranged a tour back home which invovled an early Sunday morning departure to reach Edinburgh for a family brunch. At the time i had my 306 rallye shod in some sticky toyos. I was on my own, it was a dry clear morning and the road was quiet. Now, i am under no illusion, there are many faster cars out there (especially in ph world) but nonetheless i'd like to think that was making decent 'progress north.'
Little bit of traffic on the road, couple of short straights, passed, no drama. At the same time i noticed there was a grey shape doing the same at a similar pace. Fair enough. Got clear and started to attack some corners, trying to string together something approaching some half-decent lines. braap braap braaaaaap from the questionably road legal induction pipe up front....
and the grey box got steadily bigger. By the end of the next set of twisties i had the unmistakable sight of an early 2000's grey astra in my mirrors. The guy was on his own and carried loads of speed through the final bend, soon his wheel trims were alongside me. I could have kept the toe in and probably had some stupid game of chicken down the next straight as i clawed back up the road, but no fair play, slight lift, through he pops.
astra 1.6.
ah, i see.
so the next set of bends approach and he very easily, camly and with no crazy bodyroll, just starts to walk away from me. Uses the road, camber all that so well. Within 5 minutes he is 200-300m up the road. It was an education. We climb up to the boarder and i get back some ground. Then for the next while all the way to Gala he pulls out more and more space. Now and again traffic stops play, no silly overtakes, wait for a chance and then just back on it again. Get to a turning and he peels off, slows for me winds his window down and gives me a smile and a wave.
how it should be done?
every now again it is good to be humbled and realise that talent is very much relative.
Let me set the scene, although I live down south these days I have family in both Otterburn (north of Newcastle) and Edinburgh. Between these roads lie the twists and turns of the A68. In particular the section from Otterburn to the boarder and the bit beyond is mucho fun with only a few of cameras once you are in Scotland.
Over the years i've driven this road in all sorts of cars and many, many times. Had arranged a tour back home which invovled an early Sunday morning departure to reach Edinburgh for a family brunch. At the time i had my 306 rallye shod in some sticky toyos. I was on my own, it was a dry clear morning and the road was quiet. Now, i am under no illusion, there are many faster cars out there (especially in ph world) but nonetheless i'd like to think that was making decent 'progress north.'
Little bit of traffic on the road, couple of short straights, passed, no drama. At the same time i noticed there was a grey shape doing the same at a similar pace. Fair enough. Got clear and started to attack some corners, trying to string together something approaching some half-decent lines. braap braap braaaaaap from the questionably road legal induction pipe up front....
and the grey box got steadily bigger. By the end of the next set of twisties i had the unmistakable sight of an early 2000's grey astra in my mirrors. The guy was on his own and carried loads of speed through the final bend, soon his wheel trims were alongside me. I could have kept the toe in and probably had some stupid game of chicken down the next straight as i clawed back up the road, but no fair play, slight lift, through he pops.
astra 1.6.
ah, i see.
so the next set of bends approach and he very easily, camly and with no crazy bodyroll, just starts to walk away from me. Uses the road, camber all that so well. Within 5 minutes he is 200-300m up the road. It was an education. We climb up to the boarder and i get back some ground. Then for the next while all the way to Gala he pulls out more and more space. Now and again traffic stops play, no silly overtakes, wait for a chance and then just back on it again. Get to a turning and he peels off, slows for me winds his window down and gives me a smile and a wave.
how it should be done?
It is a lot about talent, bravery and knowing the road, my gf could pelt up the twisties in her old cinquencento before she got her Puma, the road in question was pretty hairy to go down fast NSL twisty country road most people slowed for every corner average speed would be 45ish, I couldn't drive fast on it in the 1.6 golf she would maintain 60mph through the corners even in her 899cc cinq because she used that road every day and knew every corner and how to take it, bloody scary in the passenger seat tho lol
It happens to us all at some point...
Years ago I remember being in my Mk2 Golf GTi 16v, which had Kent fast road cams, stainless exhaust and a few other bits so was probably pushing out about 160+bhp up from the standard 140. It was also fitted with KW Coilovers and 15" alloys with sticky tyres.
I was on a 12 mile long twisty B road that I knew really quite well, it was a dry day and I was giving it the beans, when up behind me came a 50 odd year old bloke in a bog standard Peugeot 306 HDI estate. so I thought I would increase the gap... I really drove hard, accelerating as hard as I could when there was a short straight, hard on the brakes and a downshift for the corners, hard on the gas out of the corners with the car well in the power band.. I was really concentrating! The car was beginning to understeer slightly as I pushed harder and harder.
Guess what.. the grey haired bloke was still right there about 2 car lengths behind all the way along the road.
Seen this happen a few times when I've a passenger in other performance cars/hot hatches and they cant get away from an econobox with skinny budget tyres and a bored sales rep at the wheel.
If I'm really pushing my car to the point at which its beginning to feel like its going to leave the road at any second, WHAT THE HELL must they be doing??
I think they key lies in really smooth driving, carrying corner speed and not lifting off. I had 1st hand experience of being in a winning econobox recently. I was a passenger in my mates 2002 Polo TDI, which had a standard engine but was fitted with 17" BBS alloys, the best Pirelli's you could buy and some really good coilovers (I forget the brand). We were on a local A road that my mate knew really well, the sort of thing you can do about 60 on round most of the bends but once up to about 80+ it becomes really hairy. A 2006 911 Carrera came up behind us obviously wanting to overtake, and my mate just said "watch this" and he wound the little polo up to about 80-90mph and simply didn't lift off.. at all. He took all the corners at a constant speed and was really really smooth in his car control and I was s
tting myself. But it was absolutely bloody amazing how that Polo just totally hung on to the road. At one point my mate commented he could feel the sidewalls of the tyres beginning to fold over on one corner...
The porker tried to keep up, but after a couple of mid corner 'wobbles' he just simply admitted defeat and gave up.
Years ago I remember being in my Mk2 Golf GTi 16v, which had Kent fast road cams, stainless exhaust and a few other bits so was probably pushing out about 160+bhp up from the standard 140. It was also fitted with KW Coilovers and 15" alloys with sticky tyres.
I was on a 12 mile long twisty B road that I knew really quite well, it was a dry day and I was giving it the beans, when up behind me came a 50 odd year old bloke in a bog standard Peugeot 306 HDI estate. so I thought I would increase the gap... I really drove hard, accelerating as hard as I could when there was a short straight, hard on the brakes and a downshift for the corners, hard on the gas out of the corners with the car well in the power band.. I was really concentrating! The car was beginning to understeer slightly as I pushed harder and harder.
Guess what.. the grey haired bloke was still right there about 2 car lengths behind all the way along the road.
Seen this happen a few times when I've a passenger in other performance cars/hot hatches and they cant get away from an econobox with skinny budget tyres and a bored sales rep at the wheel.
If I'm really pushing my car to the point at which its beginning to feel like its going to leave the road at any second, WHAT THE HELL must they be doing??
I think they key lies in really smooth driving, carrying corner speed and not lifting off. I had 1st hand experience of being in a winning econobox recently. I was a passenger in my mates 2002 Polo TDI, which had a standard engine but was fitted with 17" BBS alloys, the best Pirelli's you could buy and some really good coilovers (I forget the brand). We were on a local A road that my mate knew really well, the sort of thing you can do about 60 on round most of the bends but once up to about 80+ it becomes really hairy. A 2006 911 Carrera came up behind us obviously wanting to overtake, and my mate just said "watch this" and he wound the little polo up to about 80-90mph and simply didn't lift off.. at all. He took all the corners at a constant speed and was really really smooth in his car control and I was s
tting myself. But it was absolutely bloody amazing how that Polo just totally hung on to the road. At one point my mate commented he could feel the sidewalls of the tyres beginning to fold over on one corner...The porker tried to keep up, but after a couple of mid corner 'wobbles' he just simply admitted defeat and gave up.
Edited by NinjaPower on Sunday 1st August 15:43
OP.... extensive local road knowledge can and will make all the difference compared to someonbe less familiar to the area.
Many of my fastest point to point journeys has been done in ordianry cars. Always on roads I've been travelling over for many years and almost know every kerbstone very well. Surprise many other drivers on so called "superior" cars. Very different story on roads I am not familiar with.
.
Many of my fastest point to point journeys has been done in ordianry cars. Always on roads I've been travelling over for many years and almost know every kerbstone very well. Surprise many other drivers on so called "superior" cars. Very different story on roads I am not familiar with.
.
NinjaPower said:
It happens to us all at some point...
Years ago I remember being in my Mk2 Golf GTi 16v, which had Kent fast road cams, stainless exhaust and a few other bits so was probably pushing out about 160+bhp up from the standard 140. It was also fitted with KW Coilovers and 15" alloys with sticky tyres.
I was on a 12 mile long twisty B road that I knew really quite well, it was a dry day and I was giving it the beans, when up behind me came a 50 odd year old bloke in a bog standard Peugeot 306 HDI estate. so I thought I would increase the gap... I really drove hard, accelerating as hard as I could when there was a short straight, hard on the brakes and a downshift for the corners, hard on the gas out of the corners with the car well in the power band.. I was really concentrating! The car was beginning to understeer slightly as I pushed harder and harder.
Guess what.. the grey haired bloke was still right there about 2 car lengths behind all the way along the road.
Seen this happen a few times when I've a passenger in other performance cars/hot hatches and they cant get away from an econobox with skinny budget tyres and a bored sales rep at the wheel.
If I'm really pushing my car to the point at which its beginning to feel like its going to leave the road at any second, WHAT THE HELL must they be doing??
I think they key lies in really smooth driving, carrying corner speed and not lifting off. I had 1st hand experience of being in a winning econobox recently. I was a passenger in my mates 2002 Polo TDI, which had a standard engine but was fitted with 17" BBS alloys, the best Pirelli's you could buy and some really good coilovers (I forget the brand). We were on a local A road that my mate knew really well, the sort of thing you can do about 60 on round most of the bends but once up to about 80+ it becomes really hairy. A 2006 911 Carrera came up behind us obviously wanting to overtake, and my mate just said "watch this" and he wound the little polo up to about 80-90mph and simply didn't lift off.. at all. He took all the corners at a constant speed and was really really smooth in his car control and I was stting myself. But it was absolutely bloody amazing how that Polo just totally hung on to the road. At one point my mate commented he could feel the sidewalls of the tyres beginning to fold over on one corner...
The porker tried to keep up, but after a couple of mid corner 'wobbles' he just simply admitted defeat and gave up.
can we move this to the "People think you are racing when you arent" thread Years ago I remember being in my Mk2 Golf GTi 16v, which had Kent fast road cams, stainless exhaust and a few other bits so was probably pushing out about 160+bhp up from the standard 140. It was also fitted with KW Coilovers and 15" alloys with sticky tyres.
I was on a 12 mile long twisty B road that I knew really quite well, it was a dry day and I was giving it the beans, when up behind me came a 50 odd year old bloke in a bog standard Peugeot 306 HDI estate. so I thought I would increase the gap... I really drove hard, accelerating as hard as I could when there was a short straight, hard on the brakes and a downshift for the corners, hard on the gas out of the corners with the car well in the power band.. I was really concentrating! The car was beginning to understeer slightly as I pushed harder and harder.
Guess what.. the grey haired bloke was still right there about 2 car lengths behind all the way along the road.
Seen this happen a few times when I've a passenger in other performance cars/hot hatches and they cant get away from an econobox with skinny budget tyres and a bored sales rep at the wheel.
If I'm really pushing my car to the point at which its beginning to feel like its going to leave the road at any second, WHAT THE HELL must they be doing??
I think they key lies in really smooth driving, carrying corner speed and not lifting off. I had 1st hand experience of being in a winning econobox recently. I was a passenger in my mates 2002 Polo TDI, which had a standard engine but was fitted with 17" BBS alloys, the best Pirelli's you could buy and some really good coilovers (I forget the brand). We were on a local A road that my mate knew really well, the sort of thing you can do about 60 on round most of the bends but once up to about 80+ it becomes really hairy. A 2006 911 Carrera came up behind us obviously wanting to overtake, and my mate just said "watch this" and he wound the little polo up to about 80-90mph and simply didn't lift off.. at all. He took all the corners at a constant speed and was really really smooth in his car control and I was s
tting myself. But it was absolutely bloody amazing how that Polo just totally hung on to the road. At one point my mate commented he could feel the sidewalls of the tyres beginning to fold over on one corner...The porker tried to keep up, but after a couple of mid corner 'wobbles' he just simply admitted defeat and gave up.
Edited by NinjaPower on Sunday 1st August 15:43
Not an econobox but a van instead.
I said on another thread said:
In early summer 2008, just finished a Satuday night-shift and was heading the long way home at about 07:30 on Sunday morning when i entered a village and at the junction pulled out behind a battered old Merc Sprinter, i figured i would wait till the next straight and dispatch him. Not a chance, the driver nailed it everywhere the back end was hanging out on most corners it was a fanastic display of commitment and i sat behind watching in admiration as this van took corners at the same speed as my MR2, 10ish miles later i finally got past on a bit of dual-carriage way and waved at the driver. I got a wave back from a very smiley middle-aged woman and her terrified looking male passenger. Absolutely balls out driving and it still makes me smile thinking about it now.
MGJohn said:
OP.... extensive local road knowledge can and will make all the difference compared to someonbe less familiar to the area.
Many of my fastest point to point journeys has been done in ordianry cars. Always on roads I've been travelling over for many years and almost know every kerbstone very well. Surprise many other drivers on so called "superior" cars. Very different story on roads I am not familiar with.
.
Agree with that one!Many of my fastest point to point journeys has been done in ordianry cars. Always on roads I've been travelling over for many years and almost know every kerbstone very well. Surprise many other drivers on so called "superior" cars. Very different story on roads I am not familiar with.
.
I used to drive nearly every other day the hour long trip between my then hometown of Buckie to Peterhead to visit my girlfriend (Now my wife!)
The quickest I ever did that trip was in the wee hours in my poor old mothers Citreon Xsara HDi!
On the very same road, I remember leaving a suburu Imprezza for dead through a particularly fun set of twisty between Macduff and Longmanhill in my clapped out Saab 9000 turbo! I got the impression he either didn't know the road too well or couldn't drive a greasy stick up a dogs bottom! But he soon made dogfood of me on the next straight... admittedly with his passenger looking at me and pointing at him laughing as he went by!
Wadeski said:
NinjaPower said:
It happens to us all at some point...
Years ago I remember being in my Mk2 Golf GTi 16v, which had Kent fast road cams, stainless exhaust and a few other bits so was probably pushing out about 160+bhp up from the standard 140. It was also fitted with KW Coilovers and 15" alloys with sticky tyres.
I was on a 12 mile long twisty B road that I knew really quite well, it was a dry day and I was giving it the beans, when up behind me came a 50 odd year old bloke in a bog standard Peugeot 306 HDI estate. so I thought I would increase the gap... I really drove hard, accelerating as hard as I could when there was a short straight, hard on the brakes and a downshift for the corners, hard on the gas out of the corners with the car well in the power band.. I was really concentrating! The car was beginning to understeer slightly as I pushed harder and harder.
Guess what.. the grey haired bloke was still right there about 2 car lengths behind all the way along the road.
Seen this happen a few times when I've a passenger in other performance cars/hot hatches and they cant get away from an econobox with skinny budget tyres and a bored sales rep at the wheel.
If I'm really pushing my car to the point at which its beginning to feel like its going to leave the road at any second, WHAT THE HELL must they be doing??
I think they key lies in really smooth driving, carrying corner speed and not lifting off. I had 1st hand experience of being in a winning econobox recently. I was a passenger in my mates 2002 Polo TDI, which had a standard engine but was fitted with 17" BBS alloys, the best Pirelli's you could buy and some really good coilovers (I forget the brand). We were on a local A road that my mate knew really well, the sort of thing you can do about 60 on round most of the bends but once up to about 80+ it becomes really hairy. A 2006 911 Carrera came up behind us obviously wanting to overtake, and my mate just said "watch this" and he wound the little polo up to about 80-90mph and simply didn't lift off.. at all. He took all the corners at a constant speed and was really really smooth in his car control and I was stting myself. But it was absolutely bloody amazing how that Polo just totally hung on to the road. At one point my mate commented he could feel the sidewalls of the tyres beginning to fold over on one corner...
The porker tried to keep up, but after a couple of mid corner 'wobbles' he just simply admitted defeat and gave up.
can we move this to the "People think you are racing when you arent" thread Years ago I remember being in my Mk2 Golf GTi 16v, which had Kent fast road cams, stainless exhaust and a few other bits so was probably pushing out about 160+bhp up from the standard 140. It was also fitted with KW Coilovers and 15" alloys with sticky tyres.
I was on a 12 mile long twisty B road that I knew really quite well, it was a dry day and I was giving it the beans, when up behind me came a 50 odd year old bloke in a bog standard Peugeot 306 HDI estate. so I thought I would increase the gap... I really drove hard, accelerating as hard as I could when there was a short straight, hard on the brakes and a downshift for the corners, hard on the gas out of the corners with the car well in the power band.. I was really concentrating! The car was beginning to understeer slightly as I pushed harder and harder.
Guess what.. the grey haired bloke was still right there about 2 car lengths behind all the way along the road.
Seen this happen a few times when I've a passenger in other performance cars/hot hatches and they cant get away from an econobox with skinny budget tyres and a bored sales rep at the wheel.
If I'm really pushing my car to the point at which its beginning to feel like its going to leave the road at any second, WHAT THE HELL must they be doing??
I think they key lies in really smooth driving, carrying corner speed and not lifting off. I had 1st hand experience of being in a winning econobox recently. I was a passenger in my mates 2002 Polo TDI, which had a standard engine but was fitted with 17" BBS alloys, the best Pirelli's you could buy and some really good coilovers (I forget the brand). We were on a local A road that my mate knew really well, the sort of thing you can do about 60 on round most of the bends but once up to about 80+ it becomes really hairy. A 2006 911 Carrera came up behind us obviously wanting to overtake, and my mate just said "watch this" and he wound the little polo up to about 80-90mph and simply didn't lift off.. at all. He took all the corners at a constant speed and was really really smooth in his car control and I was s
tting myself. But it was absolutely bloody amazing how that Polo just totally hung on to the road. At one point my mate commented he could feel the sidewalls of the tyres beginning to fold over on one corner...The porker tried to keep up, but after a couple of mid corner 'wobbles' he just simply admitted defeat and gave up.
Edited by NinjaPower on Sunday 1st August 15:43
I thought this thread was a discussion of "econobox Vs 'allegedly much quicker car'"... And I recounted two examples of a s
tbox getting away from an aggressively driven porker and me failing to get away from a diesel estate car who desperately wanted past??It's not necessarily about knowing the road; good forward observation and smooth controls can easily make up for 50% more power:weight.
You can always be beaten by a lunatic who takes stupid chances, but the OP doesn't sound like that. All you can do when you've had your arse handed to you like that, is to watch and learn
You can always be beaten by a lunatic who takes stupid chances, but the OP doesn't sound like that. All you can do when you've had your arse handed to you like that, is to watch and learn
dave144 said:
...left for dust by a 1.4 renault kangoo van. A week later I sold the 318 and bought a 330i.
Surely the conclusion here should be that it's not about the car.Anyone else remember that Top Gear episode where Jackie Stewart cut huge amounts from May's lap time, simply by showing him how to do it better?
The question is, why do people spend so much on making marginal improvements to their cars when some training would make them quicker in everything they ever drive?
Perhaps because it would mean admitting that they don't know it all already.
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